Rapture and Tribulation

[grandmamary1219]

The timing of the rapture and end-time events depends upon the works of the Church in fulfilling the great commission to all parts of the Earth (Mark 13:10).

This is false. The timing of the rapture depends upon the fullness of the number of Gentiles coming to faith prior to the close of the church age of grace. Romans 11:25

I join in prayer with my friend simpleservant that not one person who reads this thread will have to be here for the tribulation! Luke 21:25

Revelation 3:7-13 Praying that all who read the words of this prophecy will soon be taken to our Father's house as promised! John 14:2-3

Maranatha!

 

[james1523]

This is false. The timing of the rapture depends upon the fullness of the number of Gentiles coming to faith prior to the close of the church age of grace. Romans 11:25

How can you say it is false? The fullness of the number of Gentiles won't come to faith unless the church does the preaching and evangelism (Romans 10:14 etc). Romans 11:25 is to be read together with Romans 10:14 and Mark 13:10.

 

[james1523]

James, I have talked to alot of people over the years about Christ, and about the coming Tribulation. I must admit, you are the first I have ever met who desired to go through the Tribulation! We must be willing to give all for Christ, even our life if the situation demands it. But just because Christ calls us to be willing to give all, does not mean that Christ desires all. The love that Christ has for each of us is so strong, it could never desire the loss of our physical life. To know that love, is to know that desire. That is a love and desire that Paul knew,Paul taught, and Paul loved. Jesus knew that Paul would die by giving his life for that love, but not once did Christ ever desire to see Paul die for that love. And James, the same desire that Christ had for Paul, he has for each of us, He has for you.

I truly pray for you James. I pray that Christ will help you experience that love, and the Holy Spirit will lead you to understand that desire. I also pray that you, and everyone who might read this thread, will not have to see one moment of what the Tribulation holds.

If you read carefully, my post stated a willingness, but not a desire. Jesus did indicate that He desired us to lose our physical life if necessary (Matt 16:25 etc).

 

[Ljot]

If you read carefully, my post stated a willingness, but not a desire. Jesus did indicate that He desired us to lose our physical life if necessary (Matt 16:25 etc).

Jesus did NOT desire us to lose our lives, rather it was a willingness to put all before Him including our lives.
Also something Simple Servant touched on. The Rapture of the Church is for all True believers. At that time the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) will be removed allowing the Anti-Christ to be revealed.
If you are a Christian you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, that is why ALL believers will be taken. From the time of the Rapture until the Lord's return the Holy Spirit will no longer be over all of the earth, the Age of Grace will be over. Instead He will work on a one-to-one relationship as He did in the Old Testament.

 

[james1523]

Jesus did NOT desire us to lose our lives, rather it was a willingness to put all before Him including our lives.
Also something Simple Servant touched on. The Rapture of the Church is for all True believers. At that time the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) will be removed allowing the Anti-Christ to be revealed.
If you are a Christian you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, that is why ALL believers will be taken. From the time of the Rapture until the Lord's return the Holy Spirit will no longer be over all of the earth, the Age of Grace will be over. Instead He will work on a one-to-one relationship as He did in the Old Testament.

Did the Father ask Jesus to only be willing to go to the cross, or did the Father desire that His Son actually go to the cross?
The Scripture suggests (I am open to being wrong) that only those that are ready will be taken (see parable of the 10 virgins Matt 25). Why would God take someone who is not ready? Also why do things go back to the Old Testament, will God bring back circumcision and sacrifices as well? If the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth, then how do the people left behind get converted and saved? Because they cannot be saved unless the Spirit converts and indwells them right?

 

[Frony111]

I don't understand how thess chpt 4 is talking about a rapture? Could someone explain? To me it sound like it is talking about the people who died in Christ (believers) .. Shall rise first meaning there already with him there are not laying in some whole in the ground. That is why we who are alive and remain cannot precede them because they are already there..

 

[RJ]

I don't understand how thess chpt 4 is talking about a rapture? Could someone explain? To me it sound like it is talking about the people who died in Christ (believers) .. Shall rise first meaning there already with him there are not laying in some whole in the ground. That is why we who are alive and remain cannot precede them because they are already there..

• God is a mystery and many things are hard for us to explain from our physical world perspective because all answers are primarily spiritual.
• For sure, in the here and now, all explanations of anything concerning Jesus Christ are superceeded by your belief, spirit indwellment and subsequent salvation. Without this salvation explanations about anything concerning God's word is futile.
• With salvation, none of us still get it completely right. 1 Corinthians 13: 9-12 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
• So, our ultimate understanding will only come after our glorification and perfection from God.
• Saying that, your verses of concern are about God's fortelling of Christ's return to earth, the physical world at which time he will gather his church in then air and the ascend back to heaven:

1. This is a time in the physical space ( not only spiritual) when we get our heavenly bodies and all are "Caught Up in The Air".
2. Exactly how it happens, who knows, it is probably all instantaneously for the most part.
3. Those who are asleep before us are the believers that have died and, yes, they have been with Jesus from that day; they are gathered first.
4. Then those believers alive on earth, including all children and babies (determined by God) will be changed in a "Blink of an Eye", meaning they will instantly change from a physical being into a spiritual being with out dieing.
5. Those who are not believers at that time will not change and are what is refered to "Left Behind", they remain to suffer the pains of tribulation period.

 

[Frony111]

We are changed at the last trump the 7th .. What happens at the 6th..

 

[Frony111]

So your saying the tribulation is after the last trump?

 

[Frony111]

I always found it hard to believe that tribulation saints miraculously come to faith when the Church has already left, given that the Church's main responsibility on Earth is evangelism and maturing/growth of the Saints (to such a degree that they would rather die for Christ than worship the Beast).
How are they supposed to come to such a strong faith if the church has already left?

I have watched most of the Left Behind movies by the way, so I am familiar with most of these ideas. I may change my views if convinced, as I used to believe in post-tribulation rapture, so even me believing that there is a pre-tribulation rapture is a big step for me.

If all Christians are gone then who does Christ tell not to take any thought what you shall speak because it is not you that will speak but the holy spirit

 

[james1523]

If all Christians are gone then who does Christ tell not to take any thought what you shall speak because it is not you that will speak but the holy spirit

That is a problem with the view that the Spirit is gone after the rapture.

 

[Ljot]

Very well said RJ, thanks

 

[Frony111]

• God is a mystery and many things are hard for us to explain from our physical world perspective because all answers are primarily spiritual.
• For sure, in the here and now, all explanations of anything concerning Jesus Christ are superceeded by your belief, spirit indwellment and subsequent salvation. Without this salvation explanations about anything concerning God's word is futile.
• With salvation, none of us still get it completely right. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
• So, our ultimate understanding will only come after our glorification and perfection from God.
• Saying that, your verses of concern are about God's fortelling of Christ's return to earth, the physical world at which time he will gather his church in the air and the ascend back to heaven:

1. This is a time in the physical space ( not only spiritual) when we get our heavenly bodies and all are "Caught Up in The Air".
2. Exactly how it happens, who knows, it is probably all instantaneously for the most part.
3. Those who are asleep before us are the believers that have died and, yes, they have been with Jesus from that day; they are gathered first.
4. Then those believers alive on earth, including all children and babies (determined by God) will be changed in a "Blink of an Eye", meaning they will instantly change from a physical being into a spiritual being with out dieing.
5. Those who are not believers at that time will not change and are what is refered to "Left Behind", they remain to suffer the pains of tribulation period.

Thanks for your help I'm just trying to understand..

 

[RJ]

Thanks for your help I'm just trying to understand..

So are we all! True understanding only comes after salvation.

 

[grandmamary1219]

So are we all! True understanding only comes after salvation.

And to that astute observation, I would add only: And our perfection in Christ will take place ONLY after we are snatched away and in the twinkling of an eye we are changed in body, mind, and spirit for all of eternity. We shall see Him as He is and we shall be like Him! What a marvelous mystery to contemplate.

We will no longer suffer from "What about me?" in our thought processes, to "It's all about HIM!" in our then perfected knowledge, living in His glory for all eternity with Him.

I look forward to that moment with every fiber of my being. I'm so sick of being a sinful human. Even though we are now "saved" in Christ, we still have to fight the battles of the flesh and of the powers of darkness which are constantly waging war with His Spirit within us.

 

[Ljot]

Did the Father ask Jesus to only be willing to go to the cross, or did the Father desire that His Son actually go to the cross?
The Scripture suggests (I am open to being wrong) that only those that are ready will be taken (see parable of the 10 virgins Matt 25). Why would God take someone who is not ready? Also why do things go back to the Old Testament, will God bring back circumcision and sacrifices as well? If the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth, then how do the people left behind get converted and saved? Because they cannot be saved unless the Spirit converts and indwells them right?

Sorry about the delay on replying but I’ve been out of town.
Did the Father ask Jesus to only be willing to go to the cross, or did the Father desire that His Son actually go to the cross?

The Father did not desire to have His Son die on the cross. He was willing and allowed it for mankind’s salvation. Jesus did not desire death either, He prayed that the cup would pass before Him but of the Father’s will He would drink.
If you are a parent do you desire your children to die or be murdered?

The Scripture suggests (I am open to being wrong) that only those that are ready will be taken (see parable of the 10 virgins . Why would God take someone who is not ready


Regarding the Parable of Ten Virgins, the parable is not talking about the church or the Rapture. It is for those who will enter the millennial kingdom.
Those who are saved during the tribulation must watch and be vigil for our Savior.

The Age of Grace (Church Age) is unlike any other time in history. We are saved solely by Faith and have our salvation sealed with/by the Holy Spirit. (Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.) That's what made Pentecost so important. Until that time the Holy Spirit 'came upon them' or drew them to Him.
Salvation in the Old Testament was belief in the Messiah to come plus a sacrificial blood offering. During the Trib believers will need to be obedient as well as looking for Christ to maintain their salvation.

Also why do things go back to the Old Testament, will God bring back circumcision and sacrifices as well
Physical circumcision was a foreshadowing of the Circumcision of the Heart.
For the Jews during the Tribulation sacrifices will resume. (There is currently an effort to build the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem.) The Great Tribulation begins when the AC causes the sacrifices and oblations to cease and sets himself as God in the 3rd temple. So sacrifices will resume.

If the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth, then how do the people left behind get converted and saved? Because they cannot be saved unless the Spirit converts and indwells them right?

The Holy Spirit will be here during the trib but will work differently than during the age of Grace.
The Holy Spirit will call the believers during the tribulation but He will not indwell them. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement of salvation. The thief on the cross was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Church (Bride of Christ) are the only ones who have that Seal. The saved during the Tribulation are referred to as The Tribulation Saints.

 

[TC4JC]

The Holy Spirit isn't spatially removed. But rather a stepping aside from restraining will take place. Compare 2Thess. 2:7 with Col. 2:14 where you will read how our sins are taken out of the way. Our sins are no longer a barrier from us to God. Our sins aren't gone, but taken out of the way, just as the restrainer(Holy Spirit) is stepping aside to allow the Antichrist to advance . So after the Bride has been raptured, the Holy Spirit will still be here, just not restraining the Antichrist'sarrival onto the scene. God is still in control and Antichrist can only appear at the time God allows it.

 

[james1523]

The Holy Spirit will call the believers during the tribulation but He will not indwell them. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement of salvation. The thief on the cross was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Church (Bride of Christ) are the only ones who have that Seal. The saved during the Tribulation are referred to as The Tribulation Saints.

Thankyou for your explanation it all makes sense to me, except for this last paragraph where you said that the indwelling of the Spirit is not a requirement for salvation for these believers, it is only those who have been raptured that have the indwelling of the Spirit.

In Christianity it is believed that the indwelling of the Spirit is the way that a person is born again or regenerated in their spirit (Ezek 36:27, John 3:7)
It is the way that a believer becomes a child of God (Rom 8:15)
The apostle Paul says that those who don't have the Spirit do not belong to Christ (Rom 8:9)
It is the indwelling Spirit who will resurrect the bodies of the saints (Romans 8:11).

Then these Tribulation Saints are not Christians but of the same category as the old testament saints (including the thief on the cross, or anyone saved up until Christ's death on the cross). Would you say then that these Tribulation Saints are the ones who will comprise "the nations" that must eat from the tree of life to sustain themselves (Rev 22:2), rather than the Christians who will dwell in the New Jerusalem and having glorified immortal bodies, and have eternal life in themselves? These Tribulation Saints will comprise the peoples on earth that the Christians will rule over from the New Jerusalem. They will be saved from death but will be restored to their original creation, and not given immortalized bodies like Christ's.

 

[RJ]

Thankyou for your explanation it all makes sense to me, except for this last paragraph where you said that the indwelling of the Spirit is not a requirement for salvation for these believers, it is only those who have been raptured that have the indwelling of the Spirit.

In Christianity it is believed that the indwelling of the Spirit is the way that a person is born again or regenerated in their spirit (Ezek 36:27, John 3:7)
It is the way that a believer becomes a child of God (Rom 8:15)
The apostle Paul says that those who don't have the Spirit do not belong to Christ (Rom 8:9)
It is the indwelling Spirit who will resurrect the bodies of the saints (Romans 8:11).

Then these Tribulation Saints are not Christians but of the same category as the old testament saints (including the thief on the cross, or anyone saved up until Christ's death on the cross). Would you say then that these Tribulation Saints are the ones who will comprise "the nations" that must eat from the tree of life to sustain themselves (Rev 22:2), rather than the Christians who will dwell in the New Jerusalem and having glorified immortal bodies, and have eternal life in themselves? These Tribulation Saints will comprise the peoples on earth that the Christians will rule over from the New Jerusalem. They will be saved from death but will be restored to their original creation, and not given immortalized bodies like Christ's.

James is correct and a basic for Christianity. A Christian is marked by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ or God himself. The world is full of these Christians now. On the day of Rapture, Jesus is gathering his church, which means his believers; this can only happen because the people already possess the Spirit of God in them. On that same day, many who call themselves Christians will be left behind because they , in fact, do not possess God internally or are not saved.

 

[grandmamary1219]

Yes all who are left behind to go through the great tribulation will be the tribulation saints IF they choose to believe upon Jesus for salvation during the tribulation. All of those who are martyred will wait under the altar of God and will be given palm fronds and told to wait just a little while until the full number of their brethren come in, and then sin will be judged. Any of these saints who survive the tribulation will be going into the millennial kingdom as humans and will live for the entire millennium. They will be able to have children... thus a whole new generation of people will be born during the millennium who will have to choose to submit to the rule of Christ, or rebel. Then, after the millennium there is the final judgment, and all things will be created brand new, a new earth and a new heavens. The new earth and the new heavens will be inhabited eternally by all of God's people.

Sorry I did not take time to look up the supporting scriptures but for anyone who wants to take exception to any portion of what I have said, I will be glad to find that appropriate scripture for them at a later time.

Or I will stand corrected if I am WRONG.