Rapture and Tribulation
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grandmamary1219
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It is a common salvation, for there is only One Name by which we can be saved, and all are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. One salvation for different sheep folds. One flock, one shepherd for all dispensations. One Messiah for the Jews and for the Gentiles. Forever!
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
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I am wondering if the tribulation Saints are gentiles or Jews, or both? Are they born again Christians, do they have the Holy Spirit inside of them? Is their salvation the same kind as the Christians salvation? (rapture, indwelling of the Spirit, new glorified bodies)
grandmamary1219
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Some will be gentiles who realize they were wrong in their rejection of Christ during the age of grace, yet some will be sealed Jewish believers as shown by scripture that the Holy Spirit seals 144,000 men, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, to be evangelists in the 70th week of Daniel. The 2 witnesses are almost assuredly 2 OT saints, but they were both saved by their faith just like we are, just like the gentile converts (tribulation saints) are in the tribulation period, and just like the 144,000 Jews who are sealed prior to a particular wrath judgment falling on the earth.
As I point out, they are all believers of the one true Messiah and therefore all of the same sheepfold.
Like our scripture says: in Galatians 3:28, God's people are ONE with God and bend their knee to the Messiah, Jesus. Does not matter if they were OT looking forward to the first coming, or grace age saints, or tribulation saints, or saints from the Jewish remnant alive during the tribulation, the commonality is that we are of the same salvation in Christ alone, through grace alone, by faith alone. It has always been.
Just too bad that all the tribulation saints don't get a clue before the church age of grace concludes.
I really am saddened that anyone will have to go through the tribulation. But God is merciful, and the wrath judgments are designed to give man one last chance before the millennial kingdom begins, to voluntarily believe and be saved for all eternity.
Today more than ever before, we need to be like John the Baptist, calling the world to repentance and belief while there is yet daylight in the church age of grace. They will get another chance to repent and believe during the tribulation, but I do not want anyone to have to go through the time of the wrath judgments. Even less so, I do not want anyone to fail to repent and believe during the tribulation as that will be mankind's last chance during the ages up until the MK starts.
During the MK Satan will be bound, children will be born to believing parents (only believers enter the MK time period to populate the earth), but the sin nature and the flesh nature will still cause many of these children born to rebel. Thus a final judgment at the conclusion of the MK before the new heavens and the new earth are created for all of God's people for all of eternity to dwell in peace and security and everlasting community with God..
As I point out, they are all believers of the one true Messiah and therefore all of the same sheepfold.
Like our scripture says: in Galatians 3:28, God's people are ONE with God and bend their knee to the Messiah, Jesus. Does not matter if they were OT looking forward to the first coming, or grace age saints, or tribulation saints, or saints from the Jewish remnant alive during the tribulation, the commonality is that we are of the same salvation in Christ alone, through grace alone, by faith alone. It has always been.
Just too bad that all the tribulation saints don't get a clue before the church age of grace concludes.
I really am saddened that anyone will have to go through the tribulation. But God is merciful, and the wrath judgments are designed to give man one last chance before the millennial kingdom begins, to voluntarily believe and be saved for all eternity.
Today more than ever before, we need to be like John the Baptist, calling the world to repentance and belief while there is yet daylight in the church age of grace. They will get another chance to repent and believe during the tribulation, but I do not want anyone to have to go through the time of the wrath judgments. Even less so, I do not want anyone to fail to repent and believe during the tribulation as that will be mankind's last chance during the ages up until the MK starts.
During the MK Satan will be bound, children will be born to believing parents (only believers enter the MK time period to populate the earth), but the sin nature and the flesh nature will still cause many of these children born to rebel. Thus a final judgment at the conclusion of the MK before the new heavens and the new earth are created for all of God's people for all of eternity to dwell in peace and security and everlasting community with God..
Some believe that faith is not of ourselves, but a gift from the Holy Spirit. Therefore these people who have faith without the Spirit, must be referring to their own faith, not any kind of gift given by God. So they are saved by their own faith but how can they be saved by grace when the age of grace has ended? I am wondering if this saving faith and grace they have, is really the same kind that those under the age of grace have.
The partial rapture view believes the same concerning the events spoken of and salvation of the "tribulation saints", however its view is not that everyone who has the Spirit inside of them is raptured (i.e. all Christians), but only those who are filled with the Spirit are raptured. Therefore the tribulation saints includes unbelievers who have turned to Christ during the tribulation, but also believers who did not prepare themselves for the rapture. According to the classical pre-trib view, no Christian has to be ready or prepare themselves for the rapture, it will happen regardless of where they are at or what they are doing. Therefore the few Christians who speak about believers being ready for the rapture and "not missing the rapture", must be believers in the partial-rapture theory.
Rapture is a reward to those believers who are worthy: [Luke 21:36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is linked to the "once saved always saved" doctrine - if every believer is saved no matter what, then surely every believer is raptured no matter what. However this ignores what Jesus said that we are to watch and be ready. There is no need to pray, watch and be ready if every believer is automatically raptured.
The partial rapture view believes the same concerning the events spoken of and salvation of the "tribulation saints", however its view is not that everyone who has the Spirit inside of them is raptured (i.e. all Christians), but only those who are filled with the Spirit are raptured. Therefore the tribulation saints includes unbelievers who have turned to Christ during the tribulation, but also believers who did not prepare themselves for the rapture. According to the classical pre-trib view, no Christian has to be ready or prepare themselves for the rapture, it will happen regardless of where they are at or what they are doing. Therefore the few Christians who speak about believers being ready for the rapture and "not missing the rapture", must be believers in the partial-rapture theory.
Rapture is a reward to those believers who are worthy: [Luke 21:36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is linked to the "once saved always saved" doctrine - if every believer is saved no matter what, then surely every believer is raptured no matter what. However this ignores what Jesus said that we are to watch and be ready. There is no need to pray, watch and be ready if every believer is automatically raptured.
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grandmamary1219
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What I perceive from scripture James is that all are saved by the grace of God through the faith that God provides them.
I've learned to expect you to not believe in the simplistic way I read scripture. I interpret it in the simplest possible form, as it is written as far as I am capable, not as I imagine them to read by complicated means of interpreting and dividing and multiplying the meanings..
I've learned to expect you to not believe in the simplistic way I read scripture. I interpret it in the simplest possible form, as it is written as far as I am capable, not as I imagine them to read by complicated means of interpreting and dividing and multiplying the meanings..
That is fine, we only need to know that there is a rapture, the details are not so important. Even though the Spirit is removed in a general sense, I suspect that God would give the believing ability to those He wants to be saved at an individual level. Whether He does this by sending His Spirit to that individual, or something already encoded in their DNA, I do not know. Probably all the tribulation saints are already numbered and known by God, according to His Sovereignty. It always interests me how the doctrines are linked together. For example if one believes they can lose their salvation, it is unlikely that they would also believe that every Christian will be raptured. A person who believes in OSAS and the pre-tribulation rapture is most likely to be a Baptist.
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grandmamary1219
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Ha! Ha! Ha!
You are funny James! I am not a Baptist denominationally speaking. The LABELS are unnecessary except to distinguish true from false believers.
Let's shake hands and part company (from this thread) as friends....
You are funny James! I am not a Baptist denominationally speaking. The LABELS are unnecessary except to distinguish true from false believers.
Let's shake hands and part company (from this thread) as friends....
The Coming of the Lord
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, (dead) that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. (died) 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. (died) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise (from the dead, rising out of their graves) first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Those who are found in Christ, from all of history, will rise from the dead in this event. Every person who will be killed for the sake of Christ in the great tribulation will take part in this resurrection, as is told in Rev 20.
This talk of tribulation saints troubles me, as they are perceived as being a different group from the "raptured" saints. There is one God, one covenant equal for all men, there is one body, one bride, one salvation.
Myth: The two witnesses will preach the gospel.
Not true, as the bible says they will prophesy, and not one word says they will preach the gopel of salvation.
Myth: The 144000 young male virgins will preach the gospel.
Not true, since there is not a single word in the bible to indicate that this is so. We see their numbers when they first appear in scripture, and the second time they are mentioned, they are in heaven with God.
Myth: No man knows the day, or the hour.
Ammended: Jesus said this when He did not have the information. Two years after He said that no man knows the day or the hour, He gave us the whole of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. His knowledge changed.
One of the favorite verses of many who preach pre-trib is 1Thess 5:1-3, while utterly ignoring the fourth verse: But YOU, are NOT in darkness brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief....."
Myth: Revelation 3:10 promises that all of the church on the earth at the time will escape the great tribulation.
Not true, see Revelation 12. That promise is to those who are in Judea (Matt 24) at the exact beginning of the great tribulation when the antichrist walks into the temple and declares himself to be god. "and the woman (born again believers in Judea only) fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days", the entire duration of the great tribulation. When Satan sees that these people have escaped; "Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus"......
Ya can't make war, on the first day of the great trib, with a people who are no longer upon the Earth.
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, (dead) that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. (died) 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. (died) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise (from the dead, rising out of their graves) first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Those who are found in Christ, from all of history, will rise from the dead in this event. Every person who will be killed for the sake of Christ in the great tribulation will take part in this resurrection, as is told in Rev 20.
This talk of tribulation saints troubles me, as they are perceived as being a different group from the "raptured" saints. There is one God, one covenant equal for all men, there is one body, one bride, one salvation.
Myth: The two witnesses will preach the gospel.
Not true, as the bible says they will prophesy, and not one word says they will preach the gopel of salvation.
Myth: The 144000 young male virgins will preach the gospel.
Not true, since there is not a single word in the bible to indicate that this is so. We see their numbers when they first appear in scripture, and the second time they are mentioned, they are in heaven with God.
Myth: No man knows the day, or the hour.
Ammended: Jesus said this when He did not have the information. Two years after He said that no man knows the day or the hour, He gave us the whole of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. His knowledge changed.
One of the favorite verses of many who preach pre-trib is 1Thess 5:1-3, while utterly ignoring the fourth verse: But YOU, are NOT in darkness brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief....."
Myth: Revelation 3:10 promises that all of the church on the earth at the time will escape the great tribulation.
Not true, see Revelation 12. That promise is to those who are in Judea (Matt 24) at the exact beginning of the great tribulation when the antichrist walks into the temple and declares himself to be god. "and the woman (born again believers in Judea only) fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days", the entire duration of the great tribulation. When Satan sees that these people have escaped; "Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus"......
Ya can't make war, on the first day of the great trib, with a people who are no longer upon the Earth.
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Taylor Barrett
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I am not sure how it will happen.
But it makes sense to me that the rapture would be either pre-trib (upon the 7 year peace treaty being signed), or mid-trib (upon the peace treaty being broken)
the two witnesses would probably be during the first 3 & 1/2 years of the peace treaty, and probably the reason why the treaty is eventually broken (so the anti-christ could kill them)
either way i feel like the evidence points to the second half of the tribulation really being the TRIBULATION where the first half of the tribulation would be more like mass-deception but relative peace on earth otherwise.
anyway, thats my 2 cents.
But it makes sense to me that the rapture would be either pre-trib (upon the 7 year peace treaty being signed), or mid-trib (upon the peace treaty being broken)
the two witnesses would probably be during the first 3 & 1/2 years of the peace treaty, and probably the reason why the treaty is eventually broken (so the anti-christ could kill them)
either way i feel like the evidence points to the second half of the tribulation really being the TRIBULATION where the first half of the tribulation would be more like mass-deception but relative peace on earth otherwise.
anyway, thats my 2 cents.
Taylor Barrett
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Preaching the Gospel can be prophesy. For example, "Everyone who does not repent and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will spend eternity in Hell". That is prophecy, foretelling the future.
Jesus Christ said "No one knows the day or the hour", and He did not contradict that by telling us about key events that will proceed His coming. He knows the signs of the times, but only The Father knows the exact second of the exact minute of the exact hour of the exact day of the exact year.
Why do most people think the 144 thousand is the future? Its already happen this is the first fruits.Ever man in his on order Christ, the firstfruits, then those at Christ' s (COMING) not no rapture REV is not just future events its past, present, and future. And its not writing in order
NoHype
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Well said. Although Pre-tribbers won't like that because of being brainwashed by a pop fad that crept into the Churches in the 1830's forward, you do show your love for the brethren who do take time to listen and check God's Word out for theirselves on that matter.
As for the idea of the "first resurrection" of Rev.20, I don't interpret that to mean the saints being killed for the end only, because they do not yet receive the rewards for their service until our Lord Jesus' second coming. I interpret the rewards being handed out on the day of His return to be the manifested time of the "first resurrection", as it will include all the faithful saints from OT times up to Christ's second coming. As of yet, none have received the rewards.
NoHype
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The firstfruits idea is tied to God's election, and a portion of that election will remain alive on earth all the way up to Christ's second coming. So it is still on-going today. The timing of the 144,000 prophecy is for the very end, for the tribulation time, which is yet to occur today, and won't occur until the 5th and 6th trumpets blow.
NoHype
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Your question shows you have not fully covered the meaning of that Rev.7 chapter, especially the first section of verses where the four angels are told not yet loose those four winds, and not in relation to the flow of the other Revelation chapters, and the OT prophets. The four winds is an Old Testament subject too. It points to the very last day of this world.
Thus the context of that is, hold the four winds back and don't blow yet, not until we have 'sealed' the servants of God with His seal. So then, what main event is prophesied to occur just prior to those four winds being loosed? The "great tribulation" timing our Lord Jesus forewarned of.
Thus that sealing... is specific to the time of the "great tribulation".
Per Rev.5 and only Christ being able to open the seals, that is about understanding the events of the end leading up to His return. We are to become 'sealed' in that, but for what reason? So as to not be deceived by the Wicked one that is coming prior to our Lord Jesus' return.
In Rev.9 we are given a bit more info on the sealing, about those whom the locusts can sting vs. those they cannot sting. They cannot sting those that are sealed with God's seal. So then, what really is the 'stinging' those locusts do, what is God representing it about?
As for 144,000 being literal seed Israelites, that is not difficult to understand, because the "great multitude" of Gentiles are given in contrast about God's sealing also, since they are shown having come out of great tribulation and made their robes white, meaning they went through the tribulation, and were sealed also. When we are given this kind of description in the New Testament about His servants, like Israelites and Gentiles, the whole is put for Christ's Church made up of both, together.
But Christ's enemies keep trying to persuade with their doctrines of men those two groups are completely separate, as if the 144,000 are Jews that come to Christ during the tribulation, while the "great multitude" is Christ's Church raptured out. That's not the meaning at all.
Being 'sealed' in the end with God's seal means being sealed with God's Truth in the mind and heart by The Holy Spirit through Faith on Jesus Christ. The stinging of the locusts of Rev.9 is about the sting of deception towards the coming Antichrist.
Those sealed with God's sealing will refuse to bow to that coming Antichrist who will exalt himself as The Christ-Messiah. Because of their refusal those locusts will be able to kill them. The locusts will not be allowed to kill the deceived who are not sealed with God's sealing. They will be subject to the 'sting' though, which is how they will bow in false worship to the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem.
The identity of the 144,000 are literal Israelites of the seed of Israel, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi representing today's Jews, and the rest of those tribes representing ten lost tribe Israelites scattered among the Gentiles. In reality, the majority of them are of lost Israel, not Jews. But per God's OT prophets, He did not lose the ten tribes of Israel He scattered among the Gentiles, even though the majority of them today are lost to themselves as to their Israelite heritage.
The dead in Christ shall rise first is those that have died before Christ returns.. Before that is says comfort each other with these words it would not be real comforting to me if my loved ones that have died are laying in some whole in the ground waiting for Christ to return..that is why we who are alive and remain at Christ's return cannot precede them because they are already gone.. .To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.we serve a God of the living not the dead.. . In the book of Daniel it says satin comes in peacefully and prosperously.. If he goes around chopping peoples heads off how do you think he will decieve so many.. He is not stupid he is coming pretending to be Christ instead he is Antichrist or in the Greek anti means instead of.. That is why he will be able to decieve so many people are expecting war and destruction.. A great tribulation.. But he will come looking and acting like Christ.. He looks like the lamb but has the voice of the dragon.. The ones not deceived by him will take part in the first Resurrection in which the second death will have no power over them. the death of the soul... The ones deceived will be taught in the 1000 year lords day but they will still have a mortal soul meaning liable to die.. It is hard to believe after the millennium that some will still follow satin..
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@Darian
Read these. I believe in pre-tribulation rapture because its biblical. I've learned much from Charles Stanley, Derek Prince and David Jeremiah, highly reputable and respected preachers and authors.
http://www.talkjesus.com/sermons/49282-rapture-church-audio-sermon.html?highlight=Rapture
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study/7550-rapture-coming.html?highlight=Rapture
Read these. I believe in pre-tribulation rapture because its biblical. I've learned much from Charles Stanley, Derek Prince and David Jeremiah, highly reputable and respected preachers and authors.
http://www.talkjesus.com/sermons/49282-rapture-church-audio-sermon.html?highlight=Rapture
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study/7550-rapture-coming.html?highlight=Rapture
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What part of rev.. Is past.. Chapter 1 vs 10 John is taken to the Lords day.. What part of rev.. Does John come back and talk about past events.. I must be missing something .. Thanks..
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