Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[B-A-C]

We have a seeming conflict about Israel here.

Rom 11:25; For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26; And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27; FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28; Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
Rom 11:29; For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

"So all of Israel will be saved".... for the calling of God is irrevocable. Does that literally mean ALL of Israel will be saved?

Rom 9:27; Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

Paul is quoting Isaiah here. Even though the population of Israel will be like the sand of the sea... only a remnant will be saved.
What this seems to mean here is... only the population of Israel that's still alive at that time.

So even though the calling of God irrevocable, not "all" of Israel will be saved. Many are "called" few are chosen.

 

[Dave M]

so the question is who belongs to Israel ?? only Jewish people?? are not nations composed of more then one race? could Israel Paul is speaking of be a spiritual Israel?

are we not all called?

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- Off hand, I'd say that "all" means "all" as it relates to Israel. Other than That --I don't have very many answers.

 

[B-A-C]

are we not all called?

Not according to Calvinism/Predestination.

 

[Sue D.]

so the question is who belongs to Israel ?? only Jewish people?? are not nations composed of more then one race? could Israel Paul is speaking of be a spiritual Israel?

are we not all called?

I was looking through some articles I'd found and printed out from some years ago. One is entitled "Are we spiritual Israel" www.nonsda.org/study 7

The question -- what do we mean by Spiritual and what do we mean by Israel.

It's a long article -- If you can find it--that would be great.

The second article I found was " Israel and the Church -- the Differences.

And, yes, the articles are based on Scripture.

 

[Dave M]

Not according to Calvinism/Predestination.

yea I know what you mean

but when we look at all the parable we see everyone is called to the weeding feast but they were to busy to attend,

many are called but few accept it seems

 

[Sue D.]

Not according to Calvinism/Predestination.

Why do you need to bring Calvinism into the picture. He was merely a man with his own interpretation Of Scripture.

At least predestination Is in Scripture.

@Dave M -- the Only person / entity who knows who will or won't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior is GOD. 'We' are told -- as born again believers To share the Gospel unto salvation with all whom will listen. And to disciple them / baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is the great commission.

 

[Dave M]

The second article I found was " Israel and the Church -- the Differences.

the Jews are the one who started the church what diffrence could there be, we are one flock with one King

 

[Sue D.]

yea I know what you mean

but when we look at all the parable we see everyone is called to the weeding feast but they were to busy to attend,

many are called but few accept it seems

A lot of people are depending on their good works to 'save' them and are disappointed when they are not allowed into the wedding feast.

So -- all the good things that people Do. What is their motivation? Are they truly wanting to help people? Or are they doing lots of things For people with the idea of those things gaining their entrance to heaven.

 

[B-A-C]

The question -- what do we mean by Spiritual and what do we mean by Israel.

I agree with "most" of what these articles say. Another one is...

What is spiritual Israel? | GotQuestions.org

What is spiritual Israel? Is the church considered to be spiritual Israel? What is the difference between national Israel and spiritual Israel?

www.gotquestions.org

This one also.

Is the church spiritual Israel?

Is there a dichotomy between the church and Israel in the New Testament? Are there two sets of promises in the Bible one delivered to Israel and the other given to the church? If so, do the promises directed originally to the remnant relate solely to Israel, or can they have meaning for the...

www.ministrymagazine.org

But of course you can find plenty of articles that support the other view as well.

 

[Reba1]

@B-A-C -- Off hand, I'd say that "all" means "all" as it relates to Israel. Other than That --I don't have very many answers.

Let me see if i understand you, I am reading you believe every person of Jewish blood that ever was, will be saved. What about people who are not 100% Jewish?

 

[B-A-C]

Let me see if i understand you, I am reading you believe every person of Jewish blood that ever was, will be saved. What about people who are not 100% Jewish?

That's a tricky question. In the time of Jesus, they were called Samaritans. Generally Jesus didn't consider them the same as "full blood" Jews.

 

[Sue D.]

the Jews are the one who started the church what diffrence could there be, we are one flock with one King

Who / what actually started the Church? Wasn't it the Holy Spirit coming that started it? The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ proved that He was indeed the Son of God.

The Church -- consists of all born again believers. The Holy Spirit indwelling the person.

And, Everyone does come to God through Jesus Christ. Jews and Greeks both.

However -- since the Church came into being at the day of Pentecost -- it's a different entity than Israel.

 

[Reba1]

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Never read in Scripture that God has 2 bodies or 2 peoples i see Gods people from Adam through the Scriptures to today as ONE. I see nowhere that the blood in our veins has any saving power. We re saved by His Blood not of our own,. Red yellow black white from the middle east to the poles there is one people one God one Salvation.

 

[Sue D.]

Let me see if i understand you, I am reading you believe every person of Jewish blood that ever was, will be saved. What about people who are not 100% Jewish?

That is what Scripture seems to be saying.

I'm not any part Jewish -- I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior when I was a teenager. My salvation is secure.

Everyone who is a Jew is Also responsible to God. That person would be looking at this subject in a different perspective. Does the Jewish person accept Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah?

I suppose that a Jewish person Could have the attitude that 'since I will eventually be saved' I can live anyway I want -- and even endure a great deal of misery And Still end up being saved.

And there are Also people -- whatever nationality they are -- live horrible lives and -- in the end -- they Do respond in a positive way To the Gospel and end up regretting that they didn't hear and accept Years ago.

But -- in the long-run -- we will -- all of us -- Also stand before God and answer for what we've done in our lives. Even as born again believers we will .

 

[B-A-C]

At least predestination Is in Scripture.

Not in the way Calvinism puts it.

It's only in the Bible in 4 verses. Two are in Romans 8, and two are in Ephesians 1.

Lets discuss Romans 8 first.

Rom 8:29; For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30; Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

"whom He foreknew". I don't have a problem with God "knowing" the future. But just because He knows what you will choose, doesn't mean He made you make that choice.
However once you do make that choice (by your own free-will) it's "predestined" you will "be conformed to the image of His Son".

This has nothing to do with God choosing some to be saved, and other's not to be.

Now we can look at Ephesians 1.

Eph 1:3; Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4; just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5; having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Who is the "us" and the "we" in the verses above? Just certain people that God chose in advance to be saved?

Well if we take this literally then it's only the church at Ephesus.

Eph 1:1; Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

But at the end of the chapter he makes it clear that we are ALL predestined to be saved. We are ALL called.

Eph 1:22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Tim 2:6; who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Sue D.]

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Never read in Scripture that God has 2 bodies or 2 peoples i see Gods people from Adam through the Scriptures to today as ONE. I see nowhere that the blood in our veins has any saving power. We re saved by His Blood not of our own,. Red yellow black white from the middle east to the poles there is one people one God one Salvation.

There was another forum I was on some years ago where I learned about The Church / Israel -- and it's come up on this forum -- even before now.

And - yes, one salvation for everyone. And we Also have -- in the Old Testament -- God's Chosen people -- the Children of Israel.

The Jewish people -- as a people do Not accept anything outside of the Torah. The have Not accepted Jesus Christ as a baby in the manger to be their promised Messiah. They are still looking for Him to come as King. Which He will -- for His 1,000 year reign on earth.

And there are Also the Messianc Jews who Have accept Jesus Christ.

 

[Sue D.]

Not in the way Calvinism puts it.

It's only in the Bible in 4 verses. Two are in Romans 8, and two are in Ephesians 1.

Lets discuss Romans 8 first.

Rom 8:29; For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30; Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

"whom He foreknew". I don't have a problem with God "knowing" the future. But just because He knows what you will choose, doesn't mean He made you make that choice.
However once you do make that choice (by your own free-will) it's "predestined" you will "be conformed to the image of His Son".

This has nothing to do with God choosing some to be saved, and other's not to be.

Now we can look at Ephesians 1.

Eph 1:3; Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4; just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5; having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Who is the "us" and the "we" in the verses above? Just certain people that God chose in advance to be saved?

Well if we take this literally then it's only the church at Ephesus.

Eph 1:1; Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

But at the end of the chapter he makes it clear that we are ALL predestined to be saved. We are ALL called.

Eph 1:22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Tim 2:6; who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

@ B-A-C -- I do not care How Calvin explains Anything. But I will take a few moments to read what you've shared.

 

[Dave M]

Who / what actually started the Church? Wasn't it the Holy Spirit coming that started it?

It was Jesus a Jew, who lived under the Law and yet started the church

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Reba1]

Through different writers God Word tell us this

Paul said that believers are:
“The children of God” (Rom. 8:16).
“The household of God” (Eph. 2:19).
“The children of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7).
“Abraham’s seed” (Gal. 3:29).
“The children of promise” (Rom. 9:8; Gal. 4:28).
“A people of his own” (Ti. 2:14 — RSV).
“The elect of God” (Col. 3:12).
“Heirs of God” (Rom. 8:17)
. “Heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29).
“The temple of God” (1 Cor. 3:16).
“The circumcision” (Phil. 3:3).
“The Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16).

Peter said that believers are: “A chosen generation” (1 Pet. 2:9).
“A royal priesthood” (1 Pet. 2:9).
“An holy nation” (1 Pet. 2:9).
“A peculiar people” (1 Pet. 2:9).

James said that believers are:
“Heirs of the kingdom” (Jas. 2:5).

John said that believers are:
“The sons of God” (Jn. 1:12)
“Kings and priests unto God” (Rev. 1:6).
“The new Jerusalem” (Rev. 3:12).
“The holy city” (Rev. 21:2).

The letter to the Hebrews said that believers are:
“The people of God” (Heb. 4:9).
“Mount Zion” (Heb. 12:22).
“The city of the living God” (Heb. 12:22).
“The heavenly Jerusalem” (Heb. 12:22).