Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Reba1]

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Dave M]

more people in Heaven, yet some say we go to AB, wonder why

 

[B-A-C]

more people in Heaven, yet some say we go to AB, wonder why

One thought is... these are ONLY the martyrs mentioned here. More specifically those who were martyred during the tribulation.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection

 

[B-A-C]

Lands, you guys seem to have trouble reading plain English. "whether it's the entire church, or just the 144,000" ?!? The passage Specifies 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed; and the next 5 verses list the numbers from each specified tribe.

This is incorrect.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
(GNB) After this I looked, and there was an enormous crowd—no one could count all the people! They were from every race, tribe, nation, and language, and they stood in front of the throne and of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
(KJVA) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(TPT) After this I looked, and behold, right in front of me I saw a vast multitude of people—an enormous multitude so huge that no one could count—made up of victorious ones from every nation, tribe, people group, and language. They were all in glistening white robes, standing before the throne and before the Lamb with palm branches in their hands.

The Jews are only one race, or "one people". They are not "every race" or "every people".
The great multitude in white robes, is NOT the 144,000. In fact they are not all Jews.

 

[Bill]

Do you have any scripture that says "before hand". I can give you a couple that say "after the tribulation".
But the point here is, whether it's the entire church, or just the 144,000 either way they will be protected from the wrath.

So asking the question.. "Why would God have Christians face His wrath during the tribulation" is an invalid question that keeps popping up.
The Bible says they wont.

They will walk through the wrath , but the wrath isnt for them .

When God sends a calamity, say an earthquake. All are effected by it .

The earthquake is a direct result of sin. Those who walk in God, will still have to go through it, but its not directed at them

 

[Sue D.]

This is incorrect.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
(GNB) After this I looked, and there was an enormous crowd—no one could count all the people! They were from every race, tribe, nation, and language, and they stood in front of the throne and of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
(KJVA) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(TPT) After this I looked, and behold, right in front of me I saw a vast multitude of people—an enormous multitude so huge that no one could count—made up of victorious ones from every nation, tribe, people group, and language. They were all in glistening white robes, standing before the throne and before the Lamb with palm branches in their hands.

The Jews are only one race, or "one people". They are not "every race" or "every people".
The great multitude in white robes, is NOT the 144,000. In fact they are not all Jews.

The Jewish people were dispersed into the lands around them. The Jewish people have been throughout the world.

Sounds like you don't want any of the Jewish people To come to Christ. Jesus Christ came for the Jews 1st because He was Jewish and Then for everyone else. The Jewish population are being given a 2nd chance. No one else is. Is that what upsets you?

A Lot of the 7 yrs -- coming up -- are For the non-believing Jews TO come to accept Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. Those 144,000 Jews of all those tribes are sealed in order To protect them from all the horrors around them so that they Can reach those Jews For Christ. And they Will come to Him.

Nations and tribes are made up of People.

So -- you're quoting from three different versions.

 

[B-A-C]

Nations and tribes are made up of People.

So -- you're quoting from three different versions.

No it specifically says "races" or "peoples". You're changing the text.
The Jews are dispersed among the nations yes, but they are only one racce. You are a Jew or you aren't.
The Jews are not many races.

The great multitude is made up of "many races" or "many peoples", not just one race.

 

[Reba1]

Sounds like you don't want any of the Jewish people To come to Christ. Jesus Christ came for the Jews 1st because He was Jewish and Then for everyone else. The Jewish population are being given a 2nd chance. No one else is. Is that what upsets you?

That "second chance " is another gospel there is one Salvation for all of us.

Salvation is never by chance.

 

[Reba1]

A Lot of the 7 yrs -- coming up -- are For the non-believing Jews TO come to accept Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. Those 144,000 Jews of all those tribes are sealed in order To protect them from all the horrors around them so that they Can reach those Jews For Christ. And they Will come to Him.

144,000 Jewish virgins' will be doing what the Holy Spirit of God could not. Wow scary teaching

 

[Reba1]

Sounds like you don't want any of the Jewish people To come to Christ.

That statement is just like all the race baiting of today . Calling out @B-A-C as if he is racist.

 

[B-A-C]

Sounds like you don't want any of the Jewish people To come to Christ. Jesus Christ came for the Jews 1st because He was Jewish and Then for everyone else. The Jewish population are being given a 2nd chance. No one else is. Is that what upsets you?

The great multitude will have Jews in it. But it won't be all Jews. How is that against Jews being saved?

 

[Dave M]

now this may be out of context but Jesus said these words and as I read them this morning I could not help but think of this thread

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

 

[Dave M]

One thought is... these are ONLY the martyrs mentioned here. More specifically those who were martyred during the tribulation.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection

I have wondered if these are only the ones that were martyred during tribulation, or before the tribulation as well, I mean we have people today before tribulations being beheaded for there testimony in Jesus. And because of the word of God.

 

[Sue D.]

That "second chance " is another gospel there is one Salvation for all of us.

Salvation is never by chance.

Yes, there Is only One salvation for everyone. No other Gospel -- It's either through the shed blood of Christ , the Son of God, or it would be 'another' gospel.

By 'second chance' I'm referring to the Jewish people who have Not accepted Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah and are still here after the rapture -- They alone will have a second chance To accept Him as their Promised Messiah During the tribulation time. And their acceptance would probably mean their dying as martyrs. Hence -- the Rev. 7 verses.

 

[Sue D.]

144,000 Jewish virgins' will be doing what the Holy Spirit of God could not. Wow scary teaching

The Rev 7 passage vs 3 "saying, Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." Where do you get 'Jewish virgins' out of 'the servants of our God'?

I'm quoting out of the NKJ -- don't know Where you're getting the term 'virgins' from.

No one is saying that 'servants of our God' will be doing what the Holy Spirit of God could not do.

However -- in thinking about this -- the Holy Spirit indwells each believer upon their salvation. When the born again believers who are living at the time of the rapture are taken up and out -- apparently the Holy Spirit won't be around after that. And , as Rev. 7 is saying -- the non-believing Jews who are still here will have a harder time -- it will be through the witnessing of those 144,000 protected Jews that they will be coming To Christ, their Messiah.

Why That would be a scary teaching, I don't know. It IS what is being taught in that passage.

 

[Sue D.]

I have wondered if these are only the ones that were martyred during tribulation, or before the tribulation as well, I mean we have people today before tribulations being beheaded for there testimony in Jesus. And because of the word of God.

Your question got me thinking. Not talking about martyrs -- but those who have died in Christ for whatever , heart attack, stroke, etc. upon their death, their body either gets cremated or put in a casket and buried. Their Soul is immediately with Christ. Those people who have already died, Upon the rapture -- they will Then receive their glorified body. And whoever is alive at the time of the rapture will receive Their glorified body on their way up to meet Christ in the air.

Because Scripture says that at the rapture -- the dead in Christ will be 1st to rise to Him and Then the rest of us will be taken up.

And, you're right -- there have been martyrs / those dying because they won't renounce their faith / for centuries already and now in many countries. But there will Also be those martyred During those coming 7 yrs of tribulation -- maybe , especially during those last 3 1/2 yrs. of Great tribulation.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm quoting out of the NKJ -- don't know Where you're getting the term 'virgins' from.

Rev 14:1; Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2; And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3; And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4; These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5; And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

[NKJV]
Rev 14:1; Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2; And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
Rev 14:3; They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4; These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5; And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[Reba1]

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back uthe four winds of the earth, vthat no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending wfrom the rising of the sun, with xthe seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, y“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God zon their foreheads.” 4 And aI heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,

12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,

12,000 from the tribe of Gad,

6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,

12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,

12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,

7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,

12,000 from the tribe of Levi,

12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,

8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,

12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,

12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

A Great Multitude from Every Nation

9 After this I looked, and behold, ba great multitude that no one could number, cfrom every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dclothed in white robes, with epalm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, f“Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and gthe four living creatures, and they hfell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 isaying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, dclothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of jthe great tribulation. kThey have washed their robes and lmade them white min the blood of the Lamb.

15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,

and nserve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne owill shelter them with his presence.

16 pThey shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;

qthe sun shall not strike them,

nor any scorching heat.

17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne rwill be their shepherd,

and he will guide them to springs of sliving water,

and tGod will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Where do these verses say there is a second chance of salvation.

 

[Reba1]

Because Scripture says that at the rapture -- the dead in Christ will be 1st to rise to Him and Then the rest of us will be taken up.

Jesus the Creator says clearly the resurrection is the last day John chapters 5 and 6... How is time measured after the last day?

 

[B-A-C]

Where do these verses say there is a second chance of salvation.

Exactly.

Rev 9:20; But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
Rev 9:21; And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Rev 16:9; And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

It doesn't sound like a time of any revival to me.