Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Reba1]

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Bill]

@Bill -- considering that none of that has happened yet. That which we are reading about Now -- is to warn us of what will be taking place in the future.

John is being shown all of this -- to write it down -- for us to be warned.

The seals start in chapter 6 -- none of that has happened yet.

Looking back through history since the beginning of time, there has been lots of evil taking place. Lots of martyrs. And believers have been warned that living the Christian life is Going to bring trouble. Nothing new.

but, no, I don't believe we are in the midst of the 7 years tribulation.

The problem Sue is you don't even know where you're at when it comes to where the seals are at

This is because the modern understanding of the first seal is false. It has been taught for years that the breaking of the first seal is the arrival of the Antichrist that is incorrect

The breaking of the first seal was the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel

 

[B-A-C]

And lots of people can find lots of verses to back up most anything they want.

True enough,

But when 1 or 2 scriptures say one thing, and thirty say the opposite, I tend to go with the majority.
I've also found over the years, that when you go with the majority, it doesn't disagree with the one verse
but sheds new light on my understanding of it. (Like when we are "separate from the body" for example).

 

[Sue D.]

@ B-A-C -- okay -- does Scripture teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? There are those who believe that baptism finishes the salvation process. Where as 1 Corinthians 15 tells us exactly what is necessary 'to be saved'. So -- which Is true?

 

[Sue D.]

The problem Sue is you don't even know where you're at when it comes to where the seals are at

This is because the modern understanding of the first seal is false. It has been taught for years that the breaking of the first seal is the arrival of the Antichrist that is incorrect

The breaking of the first seal was the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel

@ Bill -- I was reading through that before posting. The 1st seal = vs 1 "Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I hard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder "Come and see". vs 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. vs 3 "when He opened the 2nd seal , I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see".

How would THAT be seen as the arrival of the Antichrist.

And How does a person get 'the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel" from That.

People Love to speculate.

 

[Sue D.]

I don't agree when pretribbers say that Matthew was written only to the Jew. Nor do I agree with notion that the Bride of Christ will not suffer tribulation before being caught up to be with the Lord.

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus told the parable of the tenant farmers, drawing from what HE told Isaiah (Isaiah 5), that the nations (gentiles) would be HIS heirs. HIS disciples to be awitness


Pretrib rapture is a deception, and a hoax, but people with itching ears love to hear their teachers tell them: "you need not worry: you are the Bride of Christ. You will escape tribulation. No need for you to consider your brothers and sisters that have been and are currently being brutally tortured, raped, murdered, beheaded for their faith in Yeshua; they are not in the privileged west."

All I have to say to my brothers and sisters in Christ is this: prepare yourself for great tribulation. Be strong in the Lord and in the powet of HIS might. Put on the whole armor of God for your reward is eternal salvation in God's heavenly kingdom. Be pure in Christ for your gift awaits. Your gift is not the rapture, but eternal life. Comfort one another with these words. Peace love and blessings to all.

I happen to Be a pre-tribber -- many born again believers experience a great deal of tribulation during their lives.

And you sound very insensitive to 'our' views in Your 'eyes'. It's called being in foreign missions and knowing very well how people in other countries are suffering. My sister and brother-in-law spent 40 years in Brazil as missionaries. Their daughter and son-in-law were 2nd generation missionaries. It was a dangerous place. And one of the larger churches that I'd gone to -- their pastor was Very missions - oriented. There were several groups going to various countries -- short-term missions. One area -- a local pastor had just been murdered a week or two before this church group went. They still went. They saw people hungry for God's Word and accepting Christ as personal Savior. And after they left that area -- the pastor who had hosted that group was taken by police for questioning. What a wonderful opportunity to share with the police. No one knows whether or not that pastor survived. He might have been murdered just like the one before him.

Why should born again believer have to be experiencing the wrath of God. After all -- We have accepted Him.

 

[B-A-C]

Why should born again believer have to be experiencing the wrath of God. After all -- We have accepted Him.

Rev 9:4; says those who have the mark of God on them will be protected from (at least some of) the plagues.
So they won't experience the wrath.

Which begs the question, why are people marked by God.. still around during the plagues if they've already been raptured?

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- those are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel who had been sealed on their foreheads when they are evangelizing the Jews. They will be protected during those 7 yrs. while they are doing the evangelizing. Everyone else will be up and away Before hand.

 

[Bill]

@ Bill -- I was reading through that before posting. The 1st seal = vs 1 "Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I hard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder "Come and see". vs 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. vs 3 "when He opened the 2nd seal , I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see".

How would THAT be seen as the arrival of the Antichrist.

And How does a person get 'the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel" from That.

People Love to speculate.

In the scripture in the Old Testament it talks about the four horsemen going in different directions but each of the four horsemen has to start from a certain location that starting location is Jerusalem. In the Old Testament it talks about the White Horse going to the West. So everything that's involved with what is going on with the white horse has to do with the West

Also the clues are the present the very fact that is white the horse is white and white in Israel represents peace
Also the other Clues including the rider he has a bow and arrows. All the entities that were involved with the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel had bow and arrows in their respective countries seals.

The entities that were involved with the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel were Egypt Israel United States and the Vatican.

It is not by title chance that all these things were mentioned in the first seal

 

[Bill]

@B-A-C -- those are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel who had been sealed on their foreheads when they are evangelizing the Jews. They will be protected during those 7 yrs. while they are doing the evangelizing. Everyone else will be up and away Before hand.

Have you ever read in Scripture what it means to be a true Jew

A true Jew is one whose heart is circumsized. So if you are in love with God then your heart is already circumcised and you have become what a true Jew is whether you think you're a Jew or not , you are

 

[Reba1]

Stephen was stoned, John the Baptist beheaded , most were martyred maybe John the beloved died of old age . We American Christians are soft ( @Sue D. kinda eluded to that idea in her post) We Americans were blessed with the first amendment which we have addressed casually, allowing its over throw. I doubt the 'world' understands that persecutions will build the Body of Christ.
Many will drop off but they:
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Hekuran]

@B-A-C -- those are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel who had been sealed on their foreheads when they are evangelizing the Jews. They will be protected during those 7 yrs. while they are doing the evangelizing. Everyone else will be up and away Before hand.

This goes beyond what Scripture says. Where did you get this teaching?

 

[B-A-C]

@B-A-C -- those are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel who had been sealed on their foreheads when they are evangelizing the Jews. They will be protected during those 7 yrs. while they are doing the evangelizing. Everyone else will be up and away Before hand.

Do you have any scripture that says "before hand". I can give you a couple that say "after the tribulation".
But the point here is, whether it's the entire church, or just the 144,000 either way they will be protected from the wrath.

So asking the question.. "Why would God have Christians face His wrath during the tribulation" is an invalid question that keeps popping up.
The Bible says they wont.

 

[PloughBoy]

I wonder what you do with this scripture that is clearly talking about when we die we are at home with the lord, we know his home is heaven and our home is heaven not AB, I believe AB was for the time before Jesus came.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

How did you ever thing that or did you get the information that, "The ALMIGHTY GOD" lives in Heaven? Heaven is a creation and God created Heaven through Jesus Christ. Now if GOD the Father CREATED Heaven, where was HE standing, where was HE at? And When He created the Angels where was HE . When He created the foundations, the place, the "abode" the location, He place "Heaven" in, Where was GOD at? For Heaven is a "creation". The Bible even says:

Douay-Rheims Bible
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.
English Revised Version
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Word Heaven in Genesis 1:1 is Noun - masculine plural
Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.
Hebrews 1:10
And: "In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Supremacy of Christ
"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together"
(Proverbs 16)
"The LORD has made everything for His purpose— even the wicked for the day of disaster. Everyone who is proud in heart is detestable to the LORD; be assured that he will not go unpunished"

Throughout the Years it behooves me, how, Jesus has reveal the expression of The Father into my very Being far more than words can express, For He has given me the eyes that can see, and the ears that I can hear! And that great-ness has so grown, it is beyond the beyond of a earthly being. The sweetness and depth-ness of the Eternal GOD! Through Brokenness,. pain, suffering, rejection, mis-understood, and standing, standing alone, sometimes in wisdom and many times in ignorance, when all have forsaken you, but you loved anyhow, and kept the faith that was once deliver to the "saints'. and i thank God for the ones who has went before us, and He left a record for us, with the ability to read and to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

King James Bible
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly "contend for the faith" which was once delivered unto the saints." ["Not to everybody but To "the Saints"]! There is a difference!

The word "Gospel" means Good News. In this word there is a lot of good news. But the "Good News" According to Jesus Christ" is of a different type. that many find hard to believe.

(Psalms 139}
Where can I go to escape Your Spirit?
Where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend to the heavens, You are there;
if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle by the farthest sea,
even there Your hand will guide me;

Your right hand will hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me,
and the light become night around me”—
even the darkness is not dark to You,
but the night shines like the day,
for darkness is as light to You.

For You formed my inmost being;
You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise You,
for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Marvelous are Your works,
and I know this very well.
My frame was not hidden from You

when I was made in secret,
when I was woven together
in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all my days were written in Your book
and ordained for me
before one of them came to be.

For God is not a human being but he chose to communicate with us in "Anthropomorphic' words. and he taught us that language, even if we do not know it, that we all have been taught by GOD in a commutable language in regards to Him, for His Own purpose.

Shalom

 

[Dave M]

If it truly is soul sleep, then you wouldn't be "away from the body" quite just yet.
There are over 30 verses that say we "sleep" until the "the trumpet/voice of the Lord calls them".
There are another dozen that say this happens on "the last day". And at least 5 verses that say this happens
at the same time for everyone. Not one day for you and another day for me, but everyone at the same time.

the last day from my understanding is when the spirits or souls get there new glorified bodies.

I have always taken the meaning of sleep in the bible to be phyisically dead, yet the spirits live on. We have the book of revelation talking about souls under the alter of God, So I take it they are in heaven, and not only in heaven, they are awake and knowing what is going on to some degree, because they cry out to the Lord.

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

[Sue D.]

This goes beyond what Scripture says. Where did you get this teaching?

I got That by reading Revelation 7.

 

[Sue D.]

Do you have any scripture that says "before hand". I can give you a couple that say "after the tribulation".
But the point here is, whether it's the entire church, or just the 144,000 either way they will be protected from the wrath.

So asking the question.. "Why would God have Christians face His wrath during the tribulation" is an invalid question that keeps popping up.
The Bible says they wont.

Revelation 7:13 - 14 "Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him. "Sir, you know." So he said to me. These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation , and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Lands, you guys seem to have trouble reading plain English. "whether it's the entire church, or just the 144,000" ?!? The passage Specifies 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed; and the next 5 verses list the numbers from each specified tribe.

 

[Reba1]

the last day from my understanding is when the spirits or souls get there new glorified bodies.

Jesus tells us the last day is .
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Hekuran]

I got That by reading Revelation 7.

No mention in Revelation 7 of evangelising Jews. And it is the multitude that perseveres through the tribulation. The 144,000 are not linked to any specific time or event at all.

 

[Sue D.]

@Hekuran -- then what are vs. 9,13, 14 talking about. And, of Course, they are.