Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

i guess at the moment i would define forgiveness as withholding punishment and 'forgetting' the offense.

That's certainly the kind of forgiveness I desire God to show me. I don't want him to give me the punishments I rightly deserve.

But when you also say forgiveness is, "'forgetting' the sin," isn't choosing to "forget" the same as not blaming?

If it is, then perhaps the truth might be that forgiveness can sometimes be both not blaming and not punishing. What do you think?

 

[Spockrates]

Basically God can do whatever He likes.

By using the word likes, I take it you mean, "God will do anything he desires." So what do you think of his desires? Does he desire both evil and good, both sin and righteousness, both unholiness and holiness? What do you say?

God does not have to forgive. If God must always forgive, then Jesus's prayer was unnecessary. God is capable of both good and evil, this is what the Jews believe and is stated in . Christians have translated or changed the meaning of evil to a lesser one - that evil means simply disaster or calamity.
Catholic Christianity believes in a God who only does good and which has an almost-equally powerful arch nemesis called Satan, who is running around doing things outside of God's control.
But in the Jewish (and old testament) mind the one true God is in complete control of everything, both good and evil, and Satan is merely his servant.
This rift between the understanding of God is seen in Christianity - the Calvinist believes more so in the Jewish God, his complete sovereignty and control over all things, including evil, the other does not, and believes that God is powerless in some situations against Satan or evil, and evil just happens or happens outside of God's control.

I spent many years in an Evangelical Reformed church, and there are a few Calvinist bible teachers I like.

 

[james1523]

By using the word likes, I take it you mean, "God will do anything he desires." So what do you think of his desires? Does he desire both evil and good, both sin and righteousness, both unholiness and holiness? What do you say?



I spent many years in an Evangelical Reformed church, and there are a few Calvinist bible teachers I like.

God cannot desire something He does not want, and evil by definition is something that God does not want, so whatever God does is good, even if that includes killing the whole human race with a flood. But for example, God can change his desires to suit the circumstance. For example, God is sometimes happy when babies are killed (Psalms 137:9), and yet murder and abortion in general is condemned. In the case of Job, Job was a pawn in a game between God and Satan. Satan challenged God to a test, and God allowed evil to come upon Job. Job's friends who claimed that Job himself was responsible, were condemned by God for not understanding God's sovereignty.

 

[Strypes]

But for example, God can change his desires to suit the circumstance. For example, God is sometimes happy when babies are killed (Psalms 137:9), and yet murder and abortion in general is condemned.

Balderdash!

Psalm 137 is not very long. Let's look at in it's entirety...

We Sing the Lord's Song?

By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion. 2 On the willows, there we hung up our lyres. 3 For there our captors required of us songs, and our tormentors, mirth, saying, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land? 5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill! 6 Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth, if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy!

7 Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites the day of Jerusalem, how they said, “Lay it bare, lay it bare, down to its foundations!” 8 O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! 9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

I could type out my own explanation but Matt Slick has done a good job of it so ....


Why does the Psalmist speak about killing children? by Matt Slick

"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock." (Psalm 137:9).

Critics often bring up this verse as an attack on the validity of the Bible. But, does the Bible teach that it is okay to kill children? The answer, of course, is, no, it doesn't. But we must ask what the Psalmist was saying and why he was saying it.

The context of Psalm 137 is the Babylonian captivity. The Psalmist speaks of the captors tormenting the people of God (vv. 1-3), a promise to remember Jerusalem (vv. 5-6), and a curse against the captors (vv. 7-9).

The Psalmist is in exile and had probably witnessed the atrocities committed against his people, babies included. In the revenge-style that was so common at the time, he wishes the same upon his enemy as a description of their utter destruction. Nowhere does it say that God approves of the Psalmist’s request or that he fulfilled it. Just because it is recorded that the Psalmist wrote the imprecation, doesn’t mean it was approved by God.

It is worth noting that the Old Testament records many atrocities. The fact is that God allowed people their sinful desires, and he worked within their culture even as he does now as he permits all kinds of bad things to happen. Nevertheless, God introduced what is called the Apoditic Law (Exodus 21:24): an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The Apoditic Law was instituted to prevent the increase of blood revenge--a practice where revenge would escalate out of control between two parties. Since the hearts of the fallen are so wicked and the harsh environment and culture produced difficulties for survival, God has a few options to counter their proclivity towards evil. He can run roughshod over their free will and force everyone to obey him, or he could wipe them all out (he had already done this with Noah's flood), or he could work within the situation at hand. In the case of this psalm and its Babylonian captivity context, God chose to work with people and through them instead of violating the freedom he had given them and forcing them to act in a manner that he instructs. Therefore, the Psalmist is expressing his curse against Babylon--a natural response to what his people have already suffered.

 

[Spockrates]

God cannot desire something He does not want, and evil by definition is something that God does not want, so whatever God does is good, even if that includes killing the whole human race with a flood.

Well, I suppose going down the road of defining what good is, is an option, if you believe that road will bring us to our destination, instead of becoming a rabbit trail. I'd say the flood--whether a local event, or less likely a worldwide cataclysm, is no more evil than the United States dropping two atomic bombs on Japan. Both events saved lives, and so one might argue logically that neither was evil.

But for example, God can change his desires to suit the circumstance. For example, God is sometimes happy when babies are killed (), and yet murder and abortion in general is condemned. In the case of Job, Job was a pawn in a game between God and Satan. Satan challenged God to a test, and God allowed evil to come upon Job. Job's friends who claimed that Job himself was responsible, were condemned by God for not understanding God's sovereignty.

Once again, evil might be only in the eyes if the beholder. Regarding Job, for example, the suffering he endured likely had the greater good of changing him for the better. His reward on earth afterward--and likely in heaven, as well--no doubt outweighed the suffering. If that eternal reward is greater as a result of the suffering, then it is logical to induce that good rather than evil was the result.

Think about it. If someone truthfully said that God would visit you--that you would see him with your own eyes and hear him with your own ears--but the person told you you would have to suffered for a short time, first, would you think the encounter with God worth the pain?

The justification for God's actions aside, there is this next question to answer: Since God cannot desire something he does not want, was Jesus asking God to cease his desire to blame when he prayed this?

"Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing."

(Luke 23:34)

If he wasn't asking God to not desire blame, then exactly what was he asking God to do?

 

[james1523]

Nowhere does it say that God approves of the Psalmist’s request or that he fulfilled it. Just because it is recorded that the Psalmist wrote the imprecation, doesn’t mean it was approved by God.

Then if the Psalmists thoughts are not in line with God's, then obviously, this Psalm is not inspired by God, but from man's fallen nature. Much of the Psalms regarding revenge and hatred of enemies is in fact contrary to the Spirit of the New Testament, indicating that these Psalms are not inspired. 1 Samuel 15:2-3 does contain a specific command from God to kill infants. Presumably, what God commands, God also desires. But, this does not mean that God approves abortion.

 

[james1523]

Well, I suppose going down the road of defining what good is, is an option, if you believe that road will bring us to our destination, instead of becoming a rabbit trail. I'd say the flood--whether a local event, or less likely a worldwide cataclysm, is no more evil than the United States dropping two atomic bombs on Japan. Both events saved lives, and so one might argue logically that neither was evil.



Once again, evil might be only in the eyes if the beholder. Regarding Job, for example, the suffering he endured likely had the greater good of changing him for the better. His reward on earth afterward--and likely in heaven, as well--no doubt outweighed the suffering. If that eternal reward is greater as a result of the suffering, then it is logical to induce that good rather than evil was the result.

Think about it. If someone truthfully said that God would visit you--that you would see him with your own eyes and hear him with your own ears--but the person told you you would have to suffered for a short time, first, would you think the encounter with God worth the pain?

The justification for God's actions aside, there is this next question to answer: Since God cannot desire something he does not want, was Jesus asking God to cease his desire to blame when he prayed this?

"Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing."

(Luke 23:34)

If he wasn't asking God to not desire blame, then exactly what was he asking God to do?

Yes, Jesus was asking God to not blame those whom God had already chosen to kill Him. Jesus probably asked this because they were doing His will and should not be blamed for it. Jesus wanted to die on the cross, and in this sense His crucifiers were doing what He wanted them to do.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes, Jesus was asking God to not blame those whom God had already chosen to kill Him. Jesus probably asked this because they were doing His will and should not be blamed for it. Jesus wanted to die on the cross, and in this sense His crucifiers were doing what He wanted them to do.

So since it is always a sin to blame, the Son was asking the Father to not sin?

 

[Spockrates]

Then if the Psalmists thoughts are not in line with God's, then obviously, this Psalm is not inspired by God, but from man's fallen nature. Much of the Psalms regarding revenge and hatred of enemies is in fact contrary to the Spirit of the New Testament, indicating that these Psalms are not inspired. does contain a specific command from God to kill infants. Presumably, what God commands, God also desires. But, this does not mean that God approves abortion.

Forgive me for interrupting, but I have an idea--whether it is inspired or not, you both may decide for yourselves. God also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his own son. Yet the death of his son was not God's desire, it seems. For God stopped Abraham and said his desire was to test his obedience. In that instance, is it true that what God commanded was not what he desired?

 

[james1523]

Forgive me for interrupting, but I have an idea--whether it is inspired or not, you both may decide for yourselves. God also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his own son. Yet the death of his son was not God's desire, it seems. For God stopped Abraham and said his desire was to test his obedience. In that instance, is it true that what God commanded was not what he desired?

Think about this story in a different way. God desired Abraham to kill Isaac because that is what He commanded. Killing children is wrong and here is a clear example of God telling Abraham to do something evil and kill children, which He also did in other parts of the Bible as well (Samuel 15:3). Yet God was not breaking any rules by telling Abraham to kill his son, because God is God. But if Abraham killed his son without a command from God, Abraham would be condemned as a child murderer.

Unlike us, because God is God, He is not constrained to command what He does not desire. Abraham and Isaac was symbolic of Christ. But God is not us. We have to be careful of thinking that God's desires are like ours - that what would upset us would upset Him as well.
The Bible says that God willingly gave His Son for us (Rom 8:32) and it pleased God to do so-
Isaiah 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong hisdays, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

God did not reluctantly send His Son to the cross - that is what we are implying by saying that God's commands and His desires do not match up.

 

[james1523]

So since it is always a sin to blame, the Son was asking the Father to not sin?

No, always a sin to blame is only in reference to us, the Creation. God is the only one who is able to blame.

 

[Spockrates]

Think about this story in a different way. God desired Abraham to kill Isaac because that is what He commanded. Killing children is wrong and here is a clear example of God telling Abraham to do something evil and kill children, which He also did in other parts of the Bible as well (Samuel 15:3). Yet God was not breaking any rules by telling Abraham to kill his son, because God is God. But if Abraham killed his son without a command from God, Abraham would be condemned as a child murderer.

Unlike us, because God is God, He is not constrained to command what He does not desire.

I agree. God is not constrained to not command what he does not desire. This, of course means the same as saying God is constrained to command what he does desire.

I also agree with your previous premise: "God cannot desire something He does not want... ."

But you and I are different, as Paul says:

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

(Galatians 5:17)

In our hypocrisy, we illogically desire what we do not want! But as you said, God is not this way. He is no hypocrite! Don't you agree?

 

[james1523]

I agree. God is not constrained to not command what he does not desire. This, of course means the same as saying God is constrained to command what he does desire.

I also agree with your previous premise: "God cannot desire something He does not want... ."

But you and I are different, as Paul says:

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

(Galatians 5:17)

In our hypocrisy, we illogically desire what we do not want! But as you said, God is not this way. He is no hypocrite! Don't you agree?

Yes unlike human beings who are born of Satan I believe God's words/actions match his thoughts/desires.

 

[Spockrates]

No, always a sin to blame is only in reference to us, the Creation. God is the only one who is able to blame.

Fascinating! What of Christ? Was it always a sin for him?

 

[Spockrates]

Yes unlike human beings who are born of Satan I believe God's words/actions match his thoughts/desires.

I agree. I suppose, then the question to ask is this: Is it better to desire the death of innocent infants, or to desire to prevent those deaths? If the latter is true, then what action fulfills the desire--the action of Saul's soldiers slaughtering the infants, or the action of testing Saul to see if he would give the order to kill the innocent and then intervening to prevent the killings?

You see? Since Saul never gave the order, we don't know what God would have done. Or do we?

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Yes unlike human beings who are born of Satan I believe God's words/actions match his thoughts/desires.

@james1523 @Spockrates

This is incorrect
As humans we are born in sin but we are not born of satan

 

[Spockrates]

@james1523 @Spockrates

This is incorrect
As humans we are born in sin but we are not born of satan

Thanks, Fragrant. Yes, I suppose the only thing Satan is the father of, is lies!



But I suppose James meant to say we are born in sin, or perhaps influenced by Satan.

 

[Chad]

In agreement with @Fragrant Grace

We're born in sin, nothing else. Satan is a destroyer, not a creator. God knit every human being in the wombs from day one.

And, I certainly was not "born of satan". God created me, saved me and His Spirit lives within me.

 

[james1523]

@james1523 @Spockrates

This is incorrect
As humans we are born in sin but we are not born of satan

Well we are certainly not "born of God" if we sin and do not have His Spirit dwelling inside of us.
1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
You see, all sin is from Satan, and Satan is not "worse than sin", Satan and sin go hand in hand like God and holiness.
As sinful beings as we leave our mothers womb, we're not "born of God" (otherwise there would be no requirement to be 'born again') so I don't know who else it could possibly be other than we are born of Satan's seed.

 

[james1523]

In agreement with @Fragrant Grace

We're born in sin, nothing else. Satan is a destroyer, not a creator. God knit every human being in the wombs from day one.

And, I certainly was not "born of satan". God created me, saved me and His Spirit lives within me.

Yes some believe we are born perfect, after all, it is offensive to any new mother or father to suggest that a newborn baby is somehow "born of Satan" (just wait until they become teenagers ), however I believe we are not born perfect, there is something evil inside of us, we may call that "Satan's seed" (or influence inside of us), which is a pseudonym for "sin in the flesh". Sin is not a neutral thing. How can sin be better than Satan? The Bible says that whoever sins is of Satan (1 John 3:8), even if we tell a small white lie when we are only 3 years old is evidence that we are born of Satan the liar. Do not be deceived, any sin, no matter how small, is from Satan. Before we were born again of God we were born of someone else and who else could it be but Satan? Sin is also a destroyer. Satan and sin go hand in hand (1 John 3:8). After we are born of God, our sinful nature does not really change - we are still capable of doing very bad things, but God's life overcomes that.