Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[james1523]

James:

I think why I'm having difficulty seeing the truth you see is that it seems illogical to me. It's only clear as mud, but with a little help from you, I might remove the mud from my eyes.

You see? You tell me a loving act is love, but you say a forgiving act is not forgiveness. What I wonder is why not? Why is one act the name we give it and the other act never the name we give it?

And I agree with you that many Christians concur that forgiving is a thought. But I also think many Christians believe forgiving can also be an action. A common definition of forgive from dictionary.com is:

1. To grant a pardon for a remission of (an offense, debt, etc.).

Forgive

Isn't this what Jesus claims the Father has given him authority to do? Isn't this what he wants us to do--not just in our personal lives, but also in our church communities?

(Now I know we don't have the authority or responsibility to pardon someone eternally, but I'm asking if have the authority and duty to pardon someone temporally. And if we do, then do you believe the common definition of the word forgive is incorrect?)

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

(John 20:23)

The reason love involves actions but forgiveness does not, is that biblical love is to do something good to another person. But to forgive is to not do something bad to the other person. Biblical love requires external action, but forgiveness requires no action.

It is interesting that you raised the point of John 20:23, which says that we don't have to forgive.
But Jesus also said we must forgive or God won't forgive us in Mark 11:26.
These two verses seem to contradict, but they are talking about two different kinds of forgiveness.
John 20:23 refers to the church, which has authority to forgive or not forgive, only what is already permitted or not permitted in heaven. For example, if a place did not receive the gospel the disciples were to shake the dust off their feet (Matt 10:14), indicating that they were not forgiven and would be judged to a harsher degree than the homosexuals.
Mark 11:26 refers to personal offenses between brethren.

The meaning of forgiveness in both cases means to not lay blame, and not take any action towards the other person, eg to not punish or take revenge.

 

[Spockrates]

Really? By playing devil's advocate with scripture? Seriously?

Indeed.

From post #11...

Experiencing God comes from the heart and can not be understood by the head. God's love is beyond measure and to fully comprehend it is beyond the human experience. God gives wisdom to those who ask with a heart willing to learn.

Your specific issue that you find unforgivable.

Strypes: I seemed to have offended you, somehow. And if our forum friend James is correct, and forgiving is to not blame, then it appears you have not yet forgiven me. For your words accuse, and to accuse is to blame.

But then, what am I saying? You may very well have forgiven me. For James also believes forgiveness is only what you think and never what you say. So if he is correct, you may have thoughts that do not blame me, but words that do blame me!

Or can you?

 

[Spockrates]

The reason love involves actions but forgiveness does not, is that biblical love is to do something good to another person. But to forgive is to not do something bad to the other person. Biblical love requires external action, but forgiveness requires no action.

It is interesting that you raised the point of , which says that we don't have to forgive.
But Jesus also said we must forgive or God won't forgive us in .
These two verses seem to contradict, but they are talking about two different kinds of forgiveness.
refers to the church, which has authority to forgive or not forgive, only what is already permitted or not permitted in heaven. For example, if a place did not receive the gospel the disciples were to shake the dust off their feet (), indicating that they were not forgiven and would be judged to a harsher degree than the homosexuals.
refers to personal offenses between brethren.

The meaning of forgiveness in both cases means to not lay blame, and not take any action towards the other person, eg to not punish or take revenge.

Yes, it sounds logical to me that there are different ways too forgive. I also agree with you that one should always try to forgive with her thoughts. And I think you agree that the authorities in the Church--whoever you believe them to be--must decide whether to forgive or not forgive, with their actions.

But Strypes has brought to light something I have not considered before: Is it possible to forgive with one's thoughts but not with one's words? Is it possible to not blame with one's thoughts and at the same time blame with one's words? I don't see how tis can be possible, for words are one's thoughts spoken out loud. Aren't they?

 

[james1523]

Yes, it sounds logical to me that there are different ways too forgive. I also agree with you that one should always try to forgive with her thoughts. And I think you agree that the authorities in the Church--whoever you believe them to be--must decide whether to forgive or not forgive, with their actions.

But Strypes has brought to light something I have not considered before: Is it possible to forgive with one's thoughts but not with one's words? Is it possible to not blame with one's thoughts and at the same time blame with one's words? I don't see how tis can be possible, for words are one's thoughts spoken out loud. Aren't they?

Thoughts without words yes, but not words without thoughts. To think one thing and yet say another is the opposite of genuineness, whatever a word for that is.

 

[Spockrates]

Thoughts without words yes, but not words without thoughts. To think one thing and yet say another is the opposite of genuineness, whatever a word for that is.

True. So let's consider the case of a person whose words are sincere. If she speaks words expressing blame, and her words genuinely convey her thoughts, then one would be right to say she has not ceased to blame with her thoughts. Hence, she has not forgiven. The reason for making this inference is the words are essentially spoken thoughts. True?

(I'm not speaking of Strypes, here. Just making a general observation.)

 

[Strypes]

"Lord help me to see what your mercy sees"~Mathew West

Strypes: I seemed to have offended you

lol you are so silly spockrates,

I am not offended by you as a person. I am not even offended that this thread is now 17 pages long.

And I am not the one who asks of you to forgive. That would be Jesus.

I suspect He may be offended with the way you play devil's advocate with scripture and that is between you and Him.



What were the results of getting on your knees before Almighty God?

Care to share some of that wisdom?

 

[Strypes]

if our forum friend James is correct, and forgiving is to not blame

Definition of "to blame"...

Verb
1. assign responsibility for a fault or wrong. "the inquiry blamed the engineer for the accident"

synonyms: hold responsible, hold accountable, condemn, accuse, find/consider guilty, assign fault/liability/guilt to, indict, point the finger at, finger, incriminate;

archaicinculpate
"he always blames others"
ascribe to, attribute to, impute to, lay at the door of, put down to;

informalpin
"they blame youth crime on unemployment"

antonyms: absolve

assign the responsibility for something bad to (someone or something).
"they blame youth crime on unemployment"

noun
noun: blame

1.
responsibility for a fault or wrong.
"his players had to take the blame"

synonyms: responsibility, guilt, accountability, liability, culpability, fault;

informalrap
"he was cleared of all blame"

antonyms: absolve

I forgive the man that date raped me but he is not absolved of the crime unless he falls to his knees before Almighty God and repents. He still has to answer to God for what he did to me. That is between him and God. I have been out of that loop for years.


It seems y'all are hell bent on making "forgiving" a new definition. Blame and being held accountable for your actions are not part of the equation.

 

[james1523]

True. So let's consider the case of a person whose words are sincere. If she speaks words expressing blame, and her words genuinely convey her thoughts, then one would be right to say she has not ceased to blame with her thoughts. Hence, she has not forgiven. The reason for making this inference is the words are essentially spoken thoughts. True?

(I'm not speaking of Strypes, here. Just making a general observation.)

Yes it is an indication of unforgiveness.

 

[Strypes]

I'm seeking the wisdom of which Paul speaks--God's wisdom about forgiving.

Proverbs 15:31 The ear that listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise. 32Whoever ignores instruction despises himself, but he who listens to reproof gains intelligence.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes it is an indication of unforgiveness.

Or perhaps speaking even is forgiveness? I mean, I can think to myself, "I forgive her; I do not blame her for what she has done to me." Or I can speak my mind, saying to her, "I forgive you. I do not blame you for what you've done." The two are pretty much the same, I think. Both are thoughts--one thoughts kept to oneself and the other thoughts spoken out loud. So isn't thinking and saying, "I don't blame you," one example of forgiveness?

Still, speaking one's mind is not the same as taking action. Perhaps this is why John, as previously mentioned writes:

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

But regarding blame, since it is the same as unforgiveness, would you say it is always a sin to blame someone?

 

[Spockrates]

"Lord help me to see what your mercy sees"~Mathew West

lol you are so silly spockrates,

I am not offended by you as a person. I am not even offended that this thread is now 17 pages long.

And I am not the one who asks of you to forgive. That would be Jesus.

I suspect He may be offended with the way you play devil's advocate with scripture and that is between you and Him.

What were the results of getting on your knees before Almighty God?

Care to share some of that wisdom?

Well, if God is offended at me, then shouldn't you be? But if it is wrong to be offended by what I said, then why would you think God is in this wrong?

My guess is that if you are in the right by not being offended, then God would do the same. For he, unlike you and me is always in the right.

 

[Spockrates]

1 The ear that listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise. 32Whoever ignores instruction despises himself, but he who listens to reproof gains intelligence.

Thanks. I sincerely needed to hear that.

 

[Spockrates]

Definition of "to blame"...

antonyms: absolve

I forgive the man that date raped me but he is not absolved of the crime unless he falls to his knees before Almighty God and repents. He still has to answer to God for what he did to me. That is between him and God. I have been out of that loop for years.

It seems y'all are hell bent on making "forgiving" a new definition. Blame and being held accountable for your actions are not part of the equation.

Sorry to hear about the rape, Strypes. I can't imagine what you went through.

 

[james1523]

Or perhaps speaking even is forgiveness? I mean, I can think to myself, "I forgive her; I do not blame her for what she has done to me." Or I can speak my mind, saying to her, "I forgive you. I do not blame you for what you've done." The two are pretty much the same, I think. Both are thoughts--one thoughts kept to oneself and the other thoughts spoken out loud. So isn't thinking and saying, "I don't blame you," one example of forgiveness?

Still, speaking one's mind is not the same as taking action. Perhaps this is why John, as previously mentioned writes:

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

But regarding blame, since it is the same as unforgiveness, would you say it is always a sin to blame someone?

Yes to blame or condemn someone falls under the same as unforgiveness. If we blame or condemn others, then God will blame or condemn us. Perhaps unforgiveness, blame and condemnation all fall under the category of "judgement". "do not judge" means do not blame, do not condemn, do not fail to forgive. Whenever we don't forgive another person, we are essentially being their judge, out of our own self-righteousness. If we had no self-righteousness, and no self-esteem, we would never blame, never condemn, and never fail to forgive someone. This is why Christ never did these things, because he had no self. It has nothing to do with our own goodness. Even though Christ was perfect and sinless, and was the only person qualified to condemn the adulterous woman, He didn't. God's command for us to forgive others is basically a command to never get offended in our self and to never judge, it is a command to die to our self. The self is the part of us which became independent from God after the fall. The reason is because every human being is on the same level in His eyes, so He is the only true judge and authority in the universe. To judge another person in our self is to usurp His authority and ruling.

 

[Strypes]

It was many years ago and I have forgiven him. He will still have to answer to God for his actions.

I have also forgiven myself.

I was ignorant to the meaning of "hey want to come over to my place and watch a movie".. Ignorant me actually thought we were there to watch a movie...

We had been dating for about three months and I had made it crystal clear that I had taken the vow "true love waits". So when I went to his apartment I had no idea that current culture slang "want to come over and watch a movie" meant sex. But NO! means NO. Period.

I blamed myself for a long time until a friend on this forum helped me deal with it. That was ten years ago.

Before you go checking my profile and thinking that I can't do the math... I first joined this site in 2004 but got banned a few times... Actually it was more like 19 times under different screen names. But Chad has forgiven me and I have forgiven him too.

I don't like remembering that time in my life but I have learned a lot from it.

He never asked for my forgiveness. As a matter of fact he quit his job and left town the very next day. He knew what he did was wrong, criminal even.

So after a very long time of self hatred and blaming myself for it, a Christian here at Talk Jesus (his name is Sparky) helped me to understand that I had to forgive him and try to forget. Once I had CHOSEN to forgive him, I was free of it. I was free to forgive myself too.

Forgiveness doesn't absolve the offender of their crime, but it does set the wounded free.

"The Prisoner that it really frees is you"~Matthew West

Tiz true...

 

[Spockrates]

Yes to blame or condemn someone falls under the same as unforgiveness. If we blame or condemn others, then God will blame or condemn us.

I'll take that as a yes and an assertion that it is always a sin to blame.

So then, when Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them," was he asking God to not blame with his thoughts? Or was he asking God to forgive some other way?

Perhaps unforgiveness, blame and condemnation all fall under the category of "judgement". "do not judge" means do not blame, do not condemn, do not fail to forgive. Whenever we don't forgive another person, we are essentially being their judge, out of our own self-righteousness. If we had no self-righteousness, and no self-esteem, we would never blame, never condemn, and never fail to forgive someone. This is why Christ never did these things, because he had no self. It has nothing to do with our own goodness. Even though Christ was perfect and sinless, and was the only person qualified to condemn the adulterous woman, He didn't. God's command for us to forgive others is basically a command to never get offended in our self and to never judge, it is a command to die to our self. The self is the part of us which became independent from God after the fall. The reason is because every human being is on the same level in His eyes, so He is the only true judge and authority in the universe. To judge another person in our self is to usurp His authority and ruling.

But is Jesus' instruction to not judge a command to never judge, or a command to sometimes judge, but never do so unfairly?

I think it must be the latter. For Paul writes:

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

(1 Corinthians 5)

 

[james1523]

I'll take that as a yes and an assertion that it is always a sin to blame.

So then, when Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them," was he asking God to not blame with his thoughts? Or was he asking God to forgive some other way?



But is Jesus' instruction to not judge a command to never judge, or a command to sometimes judge, but never do so unfairly?

I think it must be the latter. For Paul writes:

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

(1 Corinthians 5)

He was asking God not to blame with his thoughts yes, there is no evidence that God actually answered Jesus's prayer in any outward way.

Yes the "rules" about forgiving and judging do not apply to the church. As I said previously the church has authority not to forgive what is not forgiven in heaven, and so it also has the right to judge.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Welcome to the dialog, Taylor. I hope you don't mind my asking some more questions.

So when Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing." (), was he asking the Father to not have unforgiving thoughts? Or was he asking the Father to take some action?

While it would be hypocritical and therefore a sin for any sinful human to be unforgiving towards someone for committing an offense that the individual himself is also guilty of...but it is not a hypocritical for GOD, who is sinless, to be unforgiving towards someone who has sinned.

What was Jesus asking His Father to do? To not count this particular sin against those who committed it.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

I'll take that as a yes and an assertion that it is always a sin to blame.

So then, when Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them," was he asking God to not blame with his thoughts? Or was he asking God to forgive some other way?



But is Jesus' instruction to not judge a command to never judge, or a command to sometimes judge, but never do so unfairly?

I think it must be the latter. For Paul writes:

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

()

The word is used in different ways. When Jesus said "Do not judge", He meant "do not in your heart decide whether a person is going to heaven or hell".

The kind of judgement Paul is talking about is different, it is merely relating the righteous judgement of God concerning what is and isnt sin.

We ARE to judge what is sin and what isnt sin, based exclusively on what The Word of God says is and isnt sin. We are to judge righteously, out of love, concerning all things. But we are NOT to judge concerning someone's eternal salvation. That is for God alone.

At least, thats my opinion.

 

[Spockrates]

It was many years ago and I have forgiven him. He will still have to answer to God for his actions.

I have also forgiven myself.

I was ignorant to the meaning of "hey want to come over to my place and watch a movie".. Ignorant me actually thought we were there to watch a movie...

We had been dating for about three months and I had made it crystal clear that I had taken the vow "true love waits". So when I went to his apartment I had no idea that current culture slang "want to come over and watch a movie" meant sex. But NO! means NO. Period.

I blamed myself for a long time until a friend on this forum helped me deal with it. That was ten years ago.

Before you go checking my profile and thinking that I can't do the math... I first joined this site in 2004 but got banned a few times... Actually it was more like 19 times under different screen names. But Chad has forgiven me and I have forgiven him too.

I don't like remembering that time in my life but I have learned a lot from it.

He never asked for my forgiveness. As a matter of fact he quit his job and left town the very next day. He knew what he did was wrong, criminal even.

So after a very long time of self hatred and blaming myself for it, a Christian here at Talk Jesus (his name is Sparky) helped me to understand that I had to forgive him and try to forget. Once I had CHOSEN to forgive him, I was free of it. I was free to forgive myself too.

Forgiveness doesn't absolve the offender of their crime, but it does set the wounded free.

"The Prisoner that it really frees is you"~Matthew West

Tiz true...

So sorry to hear what he did. I'm sure people have told you, you did nothing wrong. But it bears repeating. Rape is never justified, and that's what it was the moment you said, "No," no matter what he thought you meant.

I agree that forgiving with your mind and emotions was necessary for yourself. I agree that he should be in prison, as a consequence here in time. I agree he will have to answer to God as a consequence in eternity.

I also don't want to cause you any pain by asking you to discuss it. So don't feel you must answer this question: Do you think there is anything he might have to do for God to forgive him for what he did to you?