Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

He was asking God not to blame with his thoughts yes, there is no evidence that God actually answered Jesus's prayer in any outward way.

Then let's consider carefully what we are suggesting:

1. To forgive is to not blame with one's thoughts.
2. It is always a sin to blame with one's thoughts.
3. Jesus asked the Father to forgive--to not blame with his thoughts.

Therefore,

Jesus asked the Father to not sin.

Should we conclude the Son thought the Father capable of such sinful thinking?

Yes the "rules" about forgiving and judging do not apply to the church. As I said previously the church has authority not to forgive what is not forgiven in heaven, and so it also has the right to judge.

So the moral principle to always forgive does not apply to those in authority over us?

Are you seeing what I'm beginning to see, my friend? There might be different kinds of forgiveness. One that must always be done, which happens in our thoughts, and another that must not always be done, which happens elsewhere. By comparing passages of scripture, we might be comparing apples with oranges! Hence the apparent contradictions, which are not real, since the two forgivenesses are not the same.

Do you think this might be the case?

 

[Spockrates]

While it would be hypocritical and therefore a sin for any sinful human to be unforgiving towards someone for committing an offense that the individual himself is also guilty of...but it is not a hypocritical for GOD, who is sinless, to be unforgiving towards someone who has sinned.

What was Jesus asking His Father to do? To not count this particular sin against those who committed it.

Thanks, Taylor. In what way would you say the sin was not counted?

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Thanks, Taylor. In what way would you say the sin was not counted?

for arguments sake, imagine a book with your name on it. inside is a record of every single sin you have ever committed. now erase one of those sins. I imagine that is something similar to what God did in response to Jesus' request for Him to forgive those who crucified Him. figuratively.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

to forgive is not the same as not blaming or not being offended. although i understand that sort of thinking. but you can blame someone for offending you and forgive them for that offense. blaming is not a sin. being offended is not a sin. someone usually is to blame, and we usually ought to be offended.

 

[Spockrates]

for arguments sake, imagine a book with your name on it. inside is a record of every single sin you have ever committed. now erase one of those sins. I imagine that is something similar to what God did in response to Jesus' request for Him to forgive those who crucified Him. figuratively.

It seems, then you are speaking of God's judgement. In that context, then to forgive a sin is to forgo judgement of that one sin. Would you say?

 

[Spockrates]

to forgive is not the same as not blaming or not being offended. although i understand that sort of thinking. but you can blame someone for offending you and forgive them for that offense. blaming is not a sin. being offended is not a sin. someone usually is to blame, and we usually ought to be offended.

Well, to be easily offended might be a sin, since it is the opposite of love. For Paul writes: "Love...is not easily offended. It keeps no record of wrongs." (1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

But if forgiveness is not a lack of blame or offense, then what is it?

 

[Strypes]

But if forgiveness is not a lack of blame or offense, then what is it?

It's the hardest thing to give away
And the last thing on your mind today
It always goes to those who don't deserve

It's the opposite of how you feel
When the pain they caused is just too real
It takes everything you have to say the word...

Forgiveness
Forgiveness

It flies in the face of all your pride
It moves away the mad inside
It's always anger's own worst enemy
Even when the jury and the judge
Say you gotta right to hold a grudge
It's the whisper in your ear saying 'set it free'

Forgiveness, Forgiveness
Forgiveness, Forgiveness

Show me how to love the unlovable
Show me how to reach the unreachable
Help me now to do the impossible
Forgiveness, Forgiveness
Help me now to do the impossible
Forgiveness

It'll clear the bitterness away
It can even set a prisoner free


There is no end to what its power can do
So let it go and be amazed
By what you see through eyes of grace
The prisoner that it really frees is you

Forgiveness, Forgiveness
Forgiveness, Forgiveness

Show me how to love the unlovable
Show me how to reach the unreachable
Help me now to do the impossible
Forgiveness

I want to finally set it free
So show me how to see what Your mercy sees
Help me now to give what You gave to me
Forgiveness, Forgiveness
Forgiveness, Forgiveness
"Forgiveness"
Artist
Matthew West


That was from page one of this thread. That is a totally awesome song.


Forgiveness is what we receive from God as a gift

and what He asks of us to give to our fellowman.


The specifics all begin with the choice .. The choice to receive God's gift.

God's instruction to "forgive as I have forgiven you" is addressed to Believers;
those who chose to receive God's Forgiveness.


We Believers, in obedience to God, forgive those who have wronged us in someway.

We choose to let it go and trust that God will administer justice.

We choose to release all of the baggage that comes with refusing to honor God by refusing to forgive others.

We receive God's total forgiveness. We should forgive others totally.

 

[Strypes]

We receive God's total forgiveness. We should forgive others totally.

Every believer's individual issues with forgiving are between them and God. Some things are much harder to forgive than others. God understands and has given us the Holy Spirit to help us.

Once we have decided/chosen to forgive then the healing process begins. It may be that The Holy Spirit leads someone to "DO Something". He has already instructed us to pray for them. But maybe for some folks The Holy Spirit may lead one to send a dozen roses to the one that offended/hurt them with a note saying that they have forgiven the wrong. Whilst another may be lead of The Holy Spirit to move to another city.

We are not alone in the process of getting past the hurt.

 

[Spockrates]

...It's the opposite of how you feel
When the pain they caused is just too real
It takes everything you have to say the word.

Forgiveness
Forgiveness

..."Forgiveness"
Artist
Matthew West

That was from page one of this thread. That is a totally awesome song.

Yes it is, Strypes. Although, Taylor appears to disagree with the quoted lyrics. So that's why I asked him why he believes forgiveness is not the opposite of what we feel.

I feel he might be partially correct and wise Mr. West might be partially correct. But the full truth might encompass both views. For both might have merely half of the truth. However, I might be wrong in thinking they are both right. I won't know till I hear what Taylor has to say.

Forgiveness is what we receive from God as a gift

and what He asks of us to give to our fellowman.

Agreed.

The specifics all begin with the choice .. The choice to receive God's gift.

God's instruction to "forgive as I have forgiven you" is addressed to Believers;
those who chose to receive God's Forgiveness.

Yes.

We Believers, in obedience to God, forgive those who have wronged us in someway.

We choose to let it go and trust that God will administer justice.

We choose to release all of the baggage that comes with refusing to honor God by refusing to forgive others.

We receive God's total forgiveness. We should forgive others totally.

Totally in our minds, but not totally in our actions? Think about Jesus' friend who betrayed him: What if Judas, before he committed suicide, asked God, in tears and true repentance to forgive him--to allow him into heaven as a friend? Would God be willing?

You don't have to answer this: But what if your rapist found you and in tears told you how much he regretted the horrible thing he did to you? What if he asked you to forgive him--if he said he hoped you two would become close friends? Would you be willing?

 

[james1523]

Then let's consider carefully what we are suggesting:

1. To forgive is to not blame with one's thoughts.
2. It is always a sin to blame with one's thoughts.
3. Jesus asked the Father to forgive--to not blame with his thoughts.

Therefore,

Jesus asked the Father to not sin.

Should we conclude the Son thought the Father capable of such sinful thinking?



So the moral principle to always forgive does not apply to those in authority over us?

Are you seeing what I'm beginning to see, my friend? There might be different kinds of forgiveness. One that must always be done, which happens in our thoughts, and another that must not always be done, which happens elsewhere. By comparing passages of scripture, we might be comparing apples with oranges! Hence the apparent contradictions, which are not real, since the two forgivenesses are not the same.

Do you think this might be the case?

Yes there are different kinds of forgiveness. The one about the Father sinning is true, but sin is the wrong word, I think the right word is righteousness. If the Father did not forgive their sins, He would be unrighteous, as the Father cannot sin.

 

[Strypes]

Yes it is, Strypes. Although, Taylor appears to disagree with the quoted lyrics. So that's why I asked him why he believes forgiveness is not the opposite of what we feel.

"It is the opposite of how you feel when the pain they caused is just to real (and) It takes everything you have to (just) say the word "forgiveness""

When your wounds are raw, it is the opposite of how you feel.

Once you have chosen to forgive the one who wronged you, healing begins and peace comes.

 

[Strypes]

Yes there are different kinds of forgiveness. The one about the Father sinning is true, but sin is the wrong word, I think the right word is righteousness. If the Father did not forgive their sins, He would be unrighteous, as the Father cannot sin.

Balderdash!

The soldiers that crucified Jesus were guilty under God's law. God did not have to forgive them. He is righteousness personified.

But His one and only begotten Son asked specifically so I am confident that those men were forgiven, but they were not given carte blanche to live a life of wickedness.

 

[Strypes]

You don't have to answer this: But what if your rapist found you and in tears told you how much he regretted the horrible thing he did to you? What if he asked you to forgive him--if he said he hoped you two would become close friends? Would you be willing?

I have already forgiven him and I have already said that he is not welcome in my life as I know he is not to be trusted. If he showed up at my door I would not open it and I would call the police to have him removed from my property. If he tried to come in before the police got here, I would shoot to kill.

Forgiveness is leaving the hurt and pain and all the baggage at the foot of the cross and leaving it there trusting God to deal with the offender.

As for Judas, his eternal destiny is between him and God.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Well, to be easily offended might be a sin, since it is the opposite of love. For Paul writes: "Love...is not easily offended. It keeps no record of wrongs." (1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

But if forgiveness is not a lack of blame or offense, then what is it?

well, for example, i KNOW that my friend was responsible for the thing he stole. so he is to blame. and i was offended (still am, i guess). but i forgave him basically the moment i found out about it.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes there are different kinds of forgiveness.

Please describe what the other forgiveness is and how it differs from the forgiveness that exists only in the mind.

The one about the Father sinning is true, but sin is the wrong word, I think the right word is righteousness. If the Father did not forgive their sins, He would be unrighteous, as the Father cannot sin.

To be more specific, do you mean this? "If the Father did not abstain from blame, he would be unrighteous."

If you do, then it remains to be seen if it is truly a sin to not forgive. For God might forgive one way (by not blaming) yet at the same time, not forgive a second way (by doing something else, which is not the same as to abstain from blame).

But if the Son was praying, "Father, don't blame them, for they don't know what they are doing," then he must have been of the opinion that it is possible for the Father to be unrighteous! This is an opinion I believe neither you nor I share, and I doubt we know the Father better than his own Son! So he would not have possibly been praying this. Would he?

If you agree he was in no way praying, "Father, don't blame them," then we should consider the other way to forgive (whatever you say that way is) so that we might see if that was the way of which Jesus prayed, I think.

So please explain what that other way to forgive is--the way which is different from not blaming with one's mind alone.

 

[Spockrates]

well, for example, i KNOW that my friend was responsible for the thing he stole. so he is to blame. and i was offended (still am, i guess). but i forgave him basically the moment i found out about it.

Thanks, but the question remains unanswered: If forgiving is not the same as to abstain from blame, then what is it? Perhaps it will help if you give an example of how you forgave him.

 

[Spockrates]

I have already forgiven him and I have already said that he is not welcome in my life as I know he is not to be trusted. If he showed up at my door I would not open it and I would call the police to have him removed from my property. If he tried to come in before the police got here, I would shoot to kill.

Forgiveness is leaving the hurt and pain and all the baggage at the foot of the cross and leaving it there trusting God to deal with the offender.

As for Judas, his eternal destiny is between him and God.

Now I understand what you believe forgiveness is. Thank you. (Also, I'm sorry for your remember such painful memories, but it did help me understand. I appreciate your doing that for me.)

 

[Spockrates]

I want to say how much I appreciate the help each of you have provided. I think I'm getting much closer to knowing what forgiving is, and so I'm close to knowing how to forgive. I have each of you to thank for that.



At this point there are four opinions I'm considering (and please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding anything and post a clarification, if that is the case):

1. James says one way to forgive is to not blame with one's thoughts. But he also says there is a different way to forgive. Everyone, including God must always forgive the first way, but is not required to forgive the second way. I've asked him to explain what that second way of forgiving might be.

2. Strypes says, "Forgiveness is leaving the hurt and pain and all the baggage at the foot of the cross and leaving it there trusting God to deal with the offender." She says we must always forgive this way, but God is not required to forgive. How could he, when vengeance is his?

3. Taylor seems to disagree with James and Strypes. Forgiveness is not the same as abstaining from blame, he says. In fact, he continues to blame those he knows he has forgiven. I've asked him to explain what forgiving is, if it is not a lack of blame.

4. I wonder if each of you has part of the truth, and the whole truth might be seen in a combination of all three beliefs. I wonder if there are indeed two different kinds of forgiveness, and one might forgive one way but not the other, and yet still forgive. I wonder if the fullest, most desired and beautiful way to forgive is to forgive not just one way, but also the other way--whatever we discover that other way is.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

i guess at the moment i would define forgiveness as withholding punishment and 'forgetting' the offense.

 

[james1523]

Please describe what the other forgiveness is and how it differs from the forgiveness that exists only in the mind.



To be more specific, do you mean this? "If the Father did not abstain from blame, he would be unrighteous."

If you do, then it remains to be seen if it is truly a sin to not forgive. For God might forgive one way (by not blaming) yet at the same time, not forgive a second way (by doing something else, which is not the same as to abstain from blame).

But if the Son was praying, "Father, don't blame them, for they don't know what they are doing," then he must have been of the opinion that it is possible for the Father to be unrighteous! This is an opinion I believe neither you nor I share, and I doubt we know the Father better than his own Son! So he would not have possibly been praying this. Would he?

If you agree he was in no way praying, "Father, don't blame them," then we should consider the other way to forgive (whatever you say that way is) so that we might see if that was the way of which Jesus prayed, I think.

So please explain what that other way to forgive is--the way which is different from not blaming with one's mind alone.

Basically God can do whatever He likes. God does not have to forgive. If God must always forgive, then Jesus's prayer was unnecessary. God is capable of both good and evil, this is what the Jews believe and is stated in Isaiah 45:7. Christians have translated or changed the meaning of evil to a lesser one - that evil means simply disaster or calamity.
Catholic Christianity believes in a God who only does good and which has an almost-equally powerful arch nemesis called Satan, who is running around doing things outside of God's control.
But in the Jewish (and old testament) mind the one true God is in complete control of everything, both good and evil, and Satan is merely his servant.
This rift between the understanding of God is seen in Christianity - the Calvinist believes more so in the Jewish God, his complete sovereignty and control over all things, including evil, the other does not, and believes that God is powerless in some situations against Satan or evil, and evil just happens or happens outside of God's control.