Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

Your recollection is not entirely accurate , it is will (wish/desire), emotions (feeling), mind (thought). Refrain from showing blame can be done by an act of the will, a loving/compassionate emotion, and blameless thoughts.

Thank you for correcting me, my friend. Are you saying, then that there is no deed one might do to show forgiveness? Or are you saying there are forgiving deeds, but not all examples of showing forgiveness require such deeds?

 

[james1523]

Thank you for correcting me, my friend. Are you saying, then that there is no deed one might do to show forgiveness? Or are you saying there are forgiving deeds, but not all examples of showing forgiveness require such deeds?

I believe forgiveness is entirely a matter of the heart. Then, the actions will follow. Accompanying actions may be a spoken word "I forgive you", a prayer, an action (or lack of action, restraint).

 

[Spockrates]

I believe forgiveness is entirely a matter of the heart. Then, the actions will follow. Accompanying actions may be a spoken word "I forgive you", a prayer, an action (or lack of action, restraint).

Forgive me for waiting so long to edit this post.

Regarding the heart metaphor (and by way of comparison with your earlier reply) I think you must mean forgiveness is a matter of both emotion and volition, but not a matter of action.

However, I wonder if this is even possible. I mean, earlier I asked Stryker if choosing to act is the same as acting. While she did not answer my query, I'm now thinking that they are indeed the same.

For one cannot will to act without acting. Nor can one act without willing to act. (I'm speaking of choice, rather than desire.) So if forgiveness is a matter of exercising one's will, it must also be a matter if action. They are two sides of the same coin, I think. But what do you think?

 

[Spockrates]

It seems to me that the article that @grandmamary1219 posted for you says that forgiveness is a choice (says so twice).

This thread is now ten pages long. I will also be exiting this thread.

If you continue to address post to me I will not be responding.

If you want a different answer then ask a different question in a new thread.

Strypes:

That's OK. I harbor no hard feelings. In fact, I'm grateful for your saying, "Forgiveness is a choice." You've given me something to think about, as I've always thought forgiveness is also an emotion, and perhaps also an action, but it might in fact be neither of these. God bless you! And if you change your mind, you're always welcome to share your opinions with me.

 

[james1523]

Forgive me for waiting so long to edit this post.

Regarding the heart metaphor (and by way of comparison with your earlier reply) I think you must mean forgiveness is a matter of both emotion and volition, but not a matter of action.

However, I wonder if this is even possible. I mean, earlier I asked Stryker if choosing to act is the same as acting. While she did not answer my query, I'm now thinking that they are indeed the same.

For one cannot will to act without acting. Nor can one act without willing to act. (I'm speaking of choice, rather than desire.) So if forgiveness is a matter of exercising one's will, it must also be a matter if action. They are two sides of the same coin, I think. But what do you think?

An example of forgiveness without action would be the case where a person has suffered some trauma/abuse and never sees that person again, but eventually chooses to forgive that person and the emotions and thoughts also do not blame that person. But I would think that reconciliation between two parties would involve forgiveness and action.

 

[Spockrates]

An example of forgiveness without action would be the case where a person has suffered some trauma/abuse and never sees that person again, but eventually chooses to forgive that person and the emotions and thoughts also do not blame that person.

Agreed. It is indeed possible to forgive internally (with one's thoughts and emotions) without forgiving externally (with one's words and actions). It seems, then the author Grandma Mary quoted is mistaken. For the author suggests all forms of forgiving are at least a choice to not seek revenge. Yet once the one forgiven is dead, revenge is not a possible option! Though if the one to be forgiven is living and present, not desiring revenge might be a prerequisite.

But I would think that reconciliation between two parties would involve forgiveness and action.

Do you mean forgiveness in that case might also be an action? This would be the logical inference if the premise that volition and action are one and the same is true. For just as the warmth and light of a flame cannot exist without the action of consuming a fuel source, so too the volition we call forgiveness cannot exist without a forgiving action, I think. How about you?

 

[Spockrates]

James:

What I mean to say is that I wonder if there are two forgivenesses, which are twins, though not identical. One takes place in the spirit, soul or mind of the forgiver, and is only thought or desire or emotion. The other forgiveness takes place in the words or deeds of the forgiver and is only volition and action. One might forgive in either way, or both ways, in any instance of forgiving. Do you think this sounds plausible?

 

[james1523]

Agreed. It is indeed possible to forgive internally (with one's thoughts and emotions) without forgiving externally (with one's words and actions). It seems, then the author Grandma Mary quoted is mistaken. For the author suggests all forms of forgiving are at least a choice to not seek revenge. Yet once the one forgiven is dead, revenge is not a possible option! Though if the one to be forgiven is living and present, not desiring revenge might be a prerequisite.

The author is a secular psychologist and could not explain what forgiveness is, which is to not lay blame.

Do you mean forgiveness in that case might also be an action? This would be the logical inference if the premise that volition and action are one and the same is true. For just as the warmth and light of a flame cannot exist without the action of consuming a fuel source, so too the volition we call forgiveness cannot exist without a forgiving action, I think. How about you?

Forgiveness can exist without a forgiving action such as the example I described previously - forgiving someone who offended you many years ago but never seeing or speaking with that person ever again.

 

[james1523]

James:

What I mean to say is that I wonder if there are two forgivenesses, which are twins, though not identical. One takes place in the spirit, soul or mind of the forgiver, and is only thought or desire or emotion. The other forgiveness takes place in the words or deeds of the forgiver and is only volition and action. One might forgive in either way, or both ways, in any instance of forgiving. Do you think this sounds plausible?

God - forgives us our sins, but there is usually no action from God that corresponds with that forgiveness.
I would not consider the external action itself to be forgiveness, but an act arising out of the internal forgiveness, and the best word for the external action I can think of (maybe there are others), is consequence.

 

[Spockrates]

The author is a secular psychologist and could not explain what forgiveness is, which is to not lay blame.

Forgiveness can exist without a forgiving action such as the example I described previously - forgiving someone who offended you many years ago but never seeing or speaking with that person ever again.

True, but I was asking if you believe forgiveness can sometimes exist with a forgiving action, and if you believe such an act of forgiving is a type of forgiveness.

It seems I might have misunderstood you, for you said:

"Your recollection is not entirely accurate , [forgiveness] is will (wish/desire), emotions (feeling), mind (thought). Refrain from showing blame can be done by an act of the will, a loving/compassionate emotion, and blameless thoughts."

When you used the word will I assumed you meant that part of us which chooses what course of action we will take. But I now see you meant the word to mean that part of us which desires or wishes.

And I realize that a desire to act is not the same as acting. (The scene from the movie Saving Private Ryan comes to mind, where the soldier wanted to be brave enough to save his friend's life, but his feelings of cowardice prevented him from doing so. A biblical example would be where Peter boasted he would die for Jesus and then fled like a coward when Christ was arrested. That is, these are examples of desires not producing the action desired.)

But I wonder if your definition of the word will is completely accurate. Isn't desire an emotion, but will is instead a decision to act?

(Edited this late in the day to express one idea more clearly.)

 

[Spockrates]

God - forgives us our sins, but there is usually no action from God that corresponds with that forgiveness.
I would not consider the external action itself to be forgiveness, but an act arising out of the internal forgiveness, and the best word for the external action I can think of (maybe there are others), is consequence.

Yes, I think I understand, now. You are saying forgiveness is an emotion or thought, but not a word nor a deed.

Please tell me: Do you also think biblical love is an emotion or thought, but not a word or deed? For example, is our Lord speaking of our feelings or our actions in this passage?

"A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know you are my disciples, if you love one another."

(John 13:34-35)

 

[james1523]

True, but I was asking if you believe forgiveness can sometimes exist with a forgiving action, and if you believe such an act of forgiving is a type of forgiveness.

It seems I might have misunderstood you, for you said:

"Your recollection is not entirely accurate , [forgiveness] is will (wish/desire), emotions (feeling), mind (thought). Refrain from showing blame can be done by an act of the will, a loving/compassionate emotion, and blameless thoughts."

When you used the word will I assumed you meant that part of us which chooses what course of action we will take. But I now see you meant the word to mean that part of us which desires or wishes.

And I realize that a desire to act is not the same as acting. (The scene from the movie Saving Private Ryan comes to mind, where the soldier wanted to be brave enough to save his friend's life, but his feelings of cowardice prevented him from doing so. A biblical example would be where Peter boasted he would die for Jesus and then fled like a coward when Christ was arrested. That is, these are examples of desires not producing the action desired.)

But I wonder if your definition of the word will is completely accurate. Isn't desire an emotion, but will is instead a decision to act?

(Edited this late in the day to express one idea more clearly.)

According to the Oxford dictionary, will means a desire or wish. Desires or wishes can be separate from our choices or actions. A choice would be part of our mind (thoughts).

 

[james1523]

Yes, I think I understand, now. You are saying forgiveness is an emotion or thought, but not a word nor a deed.

Please tell me: Do you also think biblical love is an emotion or thought, but not a word or deed? For example, is our Lord speaking of our feelings or our actions in this passage?

"A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know you are my disciples, if you love one another."

(John 13:34-35)

Biblical love is also a matter of the heart and involves the will, emotions and thoughts. A loving action is an action with a loving heart.

 

[Spockrates]

According to the Oxford dictionary, will means a desire or wish. Desires or wishes can be separate from our choices or actions. A choice would be part of our mind (thoughts).

Then we shall define the word will that way.

 

[Spockrates]

Biblical love is also a matter of the heart and involves the will, emotions and thoughts. A loving action is an action with a loving heart.

Sounds good to me; biblical love can be merely thought and emotion. I suppose the specific emotion is best described as unselfish compassion, which we might define as the desire to meet the needs of another, even if meeting such a need is detrimental, or painful to the one meeting the need. (Your continued patience with my simple questions demonstrates such a desire!)

But I wonder if the loving action itself can also be biblical love. (That is not to say all categories of biblical love are acts, but perhaps some are, I guess.) Do you think John agrees?

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

In other words, what I mean to ask next is: If someone were to ask John, "How should I love?" John would respond, "Love with actions," wouldn't he?

 

[james1523]

Sounds good to me; biblical love can be merely thought and emotion. I suppose the specific emotion is best described as unselfish compassion, which we might define as the desire to meet the needs of another, even if meeting such a need is detrimental, or painful to the one meeting the need. (Your continued patience with my simple questions demonstrates such a desire!)

But I wonder if the loving action itself can also be biblical love. (That is not to say all categories of biblical love are acts, but perhaps some are, I guess.) Do you think John agrees?

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

In other words, what I mean to ask next is: If someone were to ask John, "How should I love?" John would respond, "Love with actions," wouldn't he?

Yes love is also an action as well. God's love is predominantly action love more than benevolent love, and I guess many people confuse the twur love towards God is predominantly action orientated as well, however Mark 12:30 says to use our internal and external parts to love God. The problem is English has only one word for love. We use the same word in various contexts. So it's really "all of the above" - internal heart accompanied by external action, is love.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes love is also an action as well. God's love is predominantly action love more than benevolent love, and I guess many people confuse the twur love towards God is predominantly action orientated as well, however says to use our internal and external parts to love God. The problem is English has only one word for love. We use the same word in various contexts. So it's really "all of the above" - internal heart accompanied by external action, is love.

Wisely said about or love for God! And is our love for others also predominantly action oriented? Is our love for others "all of the above," as well?

"The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

(Mark 12:31)

 

[Brighthouse]

I think brother Spockrates, forgiveness,, like faith and wisdom and love are to have purpose in them and from them. example- i have been mean to Spockrates or James, I repented to both of you for my outburst,if you hold unforgiveness in your heart for me,I am free, while you both would not be free. I have been set free by Jesus,of course remembering to learn from what I did!! I would not be free to be stupid again to you both either!! LOL

I had to learn a very hard lesson in this! When Jesus came into my life, I was very unforgiving towards my earthy dad,i had good reason to! But he never suffered from my unforgivness, I did! So this is true to us today! We have a right to not forgive,but we only hurt our own relationship with the Lord by keeping this!( matt 18 is the finest example of why we forgive,and yes must forgive! ( matt 18:21-35) verse 35 So likewise!

They will never become hurt my our unforgivness but we sure will!! In our church we had two family's the A family I will call them,and the M family. Now the A family never had any problem with forgiving another,while the M family would forgive,but it took this family a lot longer to even become willing to forgive! When the A family came for prayer as to a healing of some sort or anything,they would receive there supply,but the M family until they had reached where the A family was at would not.

( phil 4:19) is a promise but with conditions! As all promises have conditions to them! If we say we believe but open our mouth in unbelief,how can we obtain that promise?( mark 6:5-6) ( mark 11:12-26!!!!) look at verse 25-26!!!) if we hold unforgiveness we can never obtain the promise rendered for our lives. Just a thought to you is all.I have found this most true for my life though!

 

[james1523]

Wisely said about or love for God! And is our love for others also predominantly action oriented? Is our love for others "all of the above," as well?

"The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

(Mark 12:31)

Yes because the example Jesus gave was the "Good Samaritan", so love is primarily action but with a corresponding loving motive.

 

[Spockrates]

I think brother Spockrates, forgiveness,, like faith and wisdom and love are to have purpose in them and from them. example- i have been mean to Spockrates or James, I repented to both of you for my outburst,if you hold unforgiveness in your heart for me,I am free, while you both would not be free. I have been set free by Jesus,of course remembering to learn from what I did!! I would not be free to be stupid again to you both either!! LOL

I had to learn a very hard lesson in this! When Jesus came into my life, I was very unforgiving towards my earthy dad,i had good reason to! But he never suffered from my unforgivness, I did! So this is true to us today! We have a right to not forgive,but we only hurt our own relationship with the Lord by keeping this!( matt 18 is the finest example of why we forgive,and yes must forgive! ( matt 18:21-35) verse 35 So likewise!

They will never become hurt my our unforgivness but we sure will!! In our church we had two family's the A family I will call them,and the M family. Now the A family never had any problem with forgiving another,while the M family would forgive,but it took this family a lot longer to even become willing to forgive! When the A family came for prayer as to a healing of some sort or anything,they would receive there supply,but the M family until they had reached where the A family was at would not.

( phil 4:19) is a promise but with conditions! As all promises have conditions to them! If we say we believe but open our mouth in unbelief,how can we obtain that promise?( mark 6:5-6) ( mark 11:12-26!!!!) look at verse 25-26!!!) if we hold unforgiveness we can never obtain the promise rendered for our lives. Just a thought to you is all.I have found this most true for my life though!

Brighthouse:

So good to hear from you, again. What is forgiveness?