Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Brighthouse]

So what you are saying if I am correct Spockrates is that forgiveness can take time to manifest itself in ones life? If that is what you are saying I sure agree! But the will to forgive must be present in order to forgive. For if there is no will, for whatever reason,then one will not know how to forgive in the first place. It took me 5-6 years to really forgive my earthly father of much of what he did,and how you can tell if one is growing in grace( 2 Peter 3:18) is by how much your words change about the past! ( philp 4:8) when talking about ones past is keeping that will! And Jesus takes care of the rest!! You also learn something else which is so valuable,in your present, you learn how to forgive another quicker!! LOL Because you remember how tough life was before you were forgiven! Blessing bro!

 

[james1523]

And when Jesus prayed while suffering on the cross, "Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34), he could not possibly have been asking God to forgoe some punishment. For withholding punishment is an act, and forgiveness never is an act.

Anyway Jesus is an example of true forgiveness. I always found it interesting that Jesus never forgave anyone. Forgiveness was in reference to sins against the Father as Luke 23:34 shows. The reason is that Jesus never got offended about himself. Also, there is no forgiveness in heaven, neither is forgiveness a fruit of the Spirit or eternal. We can say then that true forgiveness is to never be offended. This is the situation in Heaven, the cycle of offenses and forgiveness is really an earthly thing because of man's fallen nature.

 

[Spockrates]

You are talking about something different now which is not in line with your original questioning or my responses.
You talk about an act of pardoning, but to pardon is to release from punishment - it is to not take (some negative) external action. This is what I've been saying. Pardoning is something that is done but it involves no external action. Pardoning simply involves a change of mind, first and foremost.

Are you saying judging requires action but pardoning never requires action from God, or a human authority of any kind? Consider an example: A governor of a state decides to pardon a criminal about to be executed. He picks up the phone and calls the warden of the prison where the execution is about to take place. He tells the warden to stop the execution. Don't these actions constitute pardoning?

When you talk about forgiveness I thought you are referring to the person doing the forgiving, not the person asking for forgiveness.

Yes, I thought the same. The forgiven never is the one doing the forgiving.

Your examples of the Lord's prayer and Jesus on the cross are acts of asking for forgiveness, not the act of forgiving.

They are examples of both, I believe. In one instance, Jesus asks the Father to forgive. My question is how the Father answered that prayer.

I believe there is such a thing as forgiving words or deeds, but these words and deeds by themselves are not forgiveness because forgiveness involves the heart.

But if a word or deed is forgiving, then aren't such actions, when not by themselves and combined with the heart, forgiveness? If your answer is no, because no act ever is required to forgive, then how could any word or deed ever be truthfully called forgiving?

The far majority of Biblical and Christian experience in terms of God's forgiveness - is based on a promise to forgive, as recorded in the Bible, and God as the forgiver, undertakes no actions, but only undertakes a change of mind. After the promise is believed, the person asking forgiveness may experience a relieved conscience, but there is no external action or evidence to verify that forgiveness has actually taken place (no audible voice from Heaven etc), which in some cases may give a person a false sense of security that will be overturned during Judgement Day (at Christ's second coming) when everyone has to give an account for every word and deed. At this time the guilty conscience may be re-activated which may be comforted by hearing the words "well done good and faithful servant" (), or confirmed by hearing the words "I never knew (recognized or approved) of you (your actions)" (). So the only time when an action of forgiveness will be provided by God is at the second coming of Christ - until then, a believer's forgiveness is based on God's (conditional) promise, our expectation, until the future realization.

Then forgiveness, at least on this occasion is an act. Should we amend our premise, then and say forgiving is sometimes, but not always something God not only thinks, but also something he says or does?

So let us try again, using your Biblical examples in the proper context, pose a question: After Jesus asks God to forgive his killers (on the cross), or after we ask God to forgive our sins and sins of others (as per the Lord's prayer)...
What action does God take to forgive us our sins?
Some plausible actions may be:
a) send a beam of light or power to erase our sin from our being
b) erase, burn or destroy a "sin list" as in a book record of sins
c) tell us that we are forgiven by an audible voice from Heaven ("your sins are forgiven").

There is really no evidence that God does any of these things.
So the only thing that God does to forgive us is d) pardon, i.e. decide not to take any action, i.e. release from intended punishment.
I would not say that to pardon someone is an action - it is a thought, intent or emotion of the heart, it primarily involves a change of mind.

Was Jesus asking God to forgive his executioners eternally, when they did not even have the faith to know who he really was? Or was he asking God to forgive them only partially, since they had no such saving faith? If partially, then in what way did God forgive? With his heart alone, or with some action?

Let's consider a possible outcome: One of the Roman executioners walks away from the site. He lives out his sin-filled life never putting faith in who Jesus is or what Jesus did. He dies. On the day of judgement, God remembers Jesus' request to forgive this man, because he did not know what he was doing. How is Jesus' prayer answered?

 

[Spockrates]

... ... ...

 

[Spockrates]

Anyway Jesus is an example of true forgiveness. I always found it interesting that Jesus never forgave anyone. Forgiveness was in reference to sins against the Father as shows. The reason is that Jesus never got offended about himself. Also, there is no forgiveness in heaven, neither is forgiveness a fruit of the Spirit or eternal. We can say then that true forgiveness is to never be offended. This is the situation in Heaven, the cycle of offenses and forgiveness is really an earthly thing because of man's fallen nature.

What about Jesus forgiving the woman for committing adultery?

10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

(John 8)

You mentioned previously that to forgive is to not blame, which is the same as not condemning.

Or what about this instance?

20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, "Man, your sins are forgiven you." 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

22 When Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answered them, "Why do you question in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" - he said to the man who was paralyzed - "I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home."

(Luke 5)

His accusers accused him of forgiving sins, but Christ did not deny their accusation.

But I'm waiting for your answer to this question, as I believe it will help me better understand you: Do you believe it is always a sin to be unforgiving?

 

[james1523]

Are you saying judging requires action but pardoning never requires action from God, or a human authority of any kind? Consider an example: A governor of a state decides to pardon a criminal about to be executed. He picks up the phone and calls the warden of the prison where the execution is about to take place. He tells the warden to stop the execution. Don't these actions constitute pardoning?

A pardon by its very nature is to not carry out some prescribed judgement or punishment, therefore it is not an action. Whether the phone is used or not is irrelevant I would think, a pardon is basically a decision.

But if a word or deed is forgiving, then aren't such actions, when not by themselves and combined with the heart, forgiveness? If your answer is no, because no act ever is required to forgive, then how could any word or deed ever be truthfully called forgiving?

A forgiving word or deed is a word or deed done out of a heart of forgiveness but the actions themselves are not forgiveness, I would call them an act of love or mercy.

Then forgiveness, at least on this occasion is an act. Should we amend our premise, then and say forgiving is sometimes, but not always something God not only thinks, but also something he says or does?

Unless you can provide some, there is really no evidence that God in Heaven actually does anything when He forgives us, other than change His mind or decide not to punish.

Was Jesus asking God to forgive his executioners eternally, when they did not even have the faith to know who he really was? Or was he asking God to forgive them only partially, since they had no such saving faith? If partially, then in what way did God forgive? With his heart alone, or with some action?

Let's consider a possible outcome: One of the Roman executioners walks away from the site. He lives out his sin-filled life never putting faith in who Jesus is or what Jesus did. He dies. On the day of judgement, God remembers Jesus' request to forgive this man, because he did not know what he was doing. How is Jesus' prayer answered?

If God did forgive these men (and there is no evidence whether He did or not), then God would answer Jesus's prayer simply by deciding not to punish them for this particular sin, or decide to lessen the amount of punishment that they would receive.

 

[james1523]

What about Jesus forgiving the woman for committing adultery?

10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

(John 8)

You mentioned previously that to forgive is to not blame, which is the same as not condemning.

Or what about this instance?

20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, "Man, your sins are forgiven you." 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

22 When Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answered them, "Why do you question in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? 24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" - he said to the man who was paralyzed - "I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home."

(Luke 5)

His accusers accused him of forgiving sins, but Christ did not deny their accusation.

But I'm waiting for your answer to this question, as I believe it will help me better understand you: Do you believe it is always a sin to be unforgiving?

They accused Jesus of blasphemy. No, Jesus not denying it does not mean that Jesus agreed that He was committing blasphemy. Jesus not denying an accusation does not mean that the accusation is true. It was Jesus's nature not to respond to accusations (see Matt 27:12).

Jesus never says "I have forgiven you", because He himself never forgave anyone. When Jesus says "you are forgiven", Jesus is simply communicating the will of the Father. Keeping in mind that Jesus only spoke what the Father commanded him to say (John 12:49). The Father is the one doing the forgiveness, Christ is simply communicating that forgiveness. The Bible indicates that it is a sin to be unforgiving.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Do you believe it is always a sin to be unforgiving?

i would agree that it is always a sin to be unforgiving.

 

[Spockrates]

So what you are saying if I am correct Spockrates is that forgiveness can take time to manifest itself in ones life? If that is what you are saying I sure agree! But the will to forgive must be present in order to forgive. For if there is no will, for whatever reason,then one will not know how to forgive in the first place. It took me 5-6 years to really forgive my earthly father of much of what he did,and how you can tell if one is growing in grace( ) is by how much your words change about the past! ( philp 4:8) when talking about ones past is keeping that will! And Jesus takes care of the rest!! You also learn something else which is so valuable,in your present, you learn how to forgive another quicker!! LOL Because you remember how tough life was before you were forgiven! Blessing bro!

Well, I was trying to answer your question, "Is forgiveness part of faith?" My answer was: "Forgiveness might be part of faith, but only if forgiveness is restoration of a relationship."

If it is, then I suppose it would take two to forgive so fully as to restore what was lost. Then again, it might happen quickly, if both parties are seeking such forgiveness.

 

[Spockrates]

They accused Jesus of blasphemy. No, Jesus not denying it does not mean that Jesus agreed that He was committing blasphemy. Jesus not denying an accusation does not mean that the accusation is true. It was Jesus's nature not to respond to accusations (see ).

Jesus never says "I have forgiven you", because He himself never forgave anyone. When Jesus says "you are forgiven", Jesus is simply communicating the will of the Father. Keeping in mind that Jesus only spoke what the Father commanded him to say (). The Father is the one doing the forgiveness, Christ is simply communicating that forgiveness. The Bible indicates that it is a sin to be unforgiving.

Is Jesus saying he has the authority, or does not have the authority to forgive sins?

"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" - he said to the man who was paralyzed - "I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home."

(Luke 5:24)

 

[Spockrates]

i would agree that it is always a sin to be unforgiving.

Welcome to the dialog, Taylor. I hope you don't mind my asking some more questions.

So when Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34), was he asking the Father to not have unforgiving thoughts? Or was he asking the Father to take some action?

 

[james1523]

Is Jesus saying he has the authority, or does not have the authority to forgive sins?

"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" - he said to the man who was paralyzed - "I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home."

(Luke 5:24)

He does not have his own authority (John 8:28, 14:10). The authority was not from Himself, but from the Father (John 5:19).

 

[Strypes]

You also learn something else which is so valuable, in your present, you learn how to forgive another quicker!!

Tiz True...


This thread is now 16 pages with this being the 153rd post. It would seem that one would be an expert in the depths of forgiveness by now. I think it is a shame that the simple command of Jesus to forgive others has been expounded upon to ad nauseam.



Spockrates,
Whomever it is that you offended or whomever offended you, or whatever it is that has you here trying to justify placing restrictions and conditions on forgiveness... let it go man! You can not expect/demand reconciliation with someone who hurt you or who you hurt. I was date raped many years ago and I have forgiven him but reconciliation is not an option. Not because I haven't forgiven him but because his is not to be trusted. duh!

"Try to live at peace with all people". Sometimes peace comes because you put distance between you and them.
Tiz true.


When Jesus forgave the guys that nailed him to that tree and spoke the words "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".. the guys were forgiven there on the spot. They were not given carte blanche to live a life of wickedness. How God judged their eternal destination was between them and Him.

I am reminded of Peter's request as to what will become of John and Jesus said "what's it to you?" or something to that effect.

Anyway... Howdee Guys. the past 6 pages of this thread have been nauseating ...

Save the quote above.



Choose to forgive because God asked you to and let it go! Your heart will catch up with your decision in time. Don't put on it requirements or demands or try to make it complicated. Do it in obedience to Christ and for no other reason.

Strypes <=== *searches for her nausea medicine and exits thread*

 

[Spockrates]

He does not have his own authority (; ). The authority was not from Himself, but from the Father ().

Agreed. In exercising that authority, does he forgive sins merely with his mind, or does he forgive sins also with his words and deeds?

(Please also see my next reply.)

 

[Spockrates]

Tiz True...


This thread is now 16 pages with this being the 153rd post. It would seem that one would be an expert in the depths of forgiveness by now. I think it is a shame that the simple command of Jesus to forgive others has been expounded upon to ad nauseam.



Spockrates,
Whomever it is that you offended or whomever offended you, or whatever it is that has you here trying to justify placing restrictions and conditions on forgiveness... let it go man! You can not expect/demand reconciliation with someone who hurt you or who you hurt. I was date raped many years ago and I have forgiven him but reconciliation is not an option. Not because I haven't forgiven him but because his is not to be trusted. duh!

"Try to live at peace with all people". Sometimes peace comes because you put distance between you and them.
Tiz true.


When Jesus forgave the guys that nailed him to that tree and spoke the words "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".. the guys were forgiven there on the spot. They were not given carte blanche to live a life of wickedness. How God judged their eternal destination was between them and Him.

I am reminded of Peter's request as to what will become of John and Jesus said "what's it to you?" or something to that effect.

Anyway... Howdee Guys. the past 6 pages of this thread have been nauseating ...

Save the quote above.



Choose to forgive because God asked you to and let it go! Your heart will catch up with your decision in time. Don't put on it requirements or demands or try to make it complicated. Do it in obedience to Christ and for no other reason.

Strypes <=== *searches for her nausea medicine and exits thread*

Strypes:

Thanks for the advice, but what should I let go of?

 

[Spockrates]

James:

I think why I'm having difficulty seeing the truth you see is that it seems illogical to me. It's only clear as mud, but with a little help from you, I might remove the mud from my eyes.

You see? You tell me a loving act is love, but you say a forgiving act is not forgiveness. What I wonder is why not? Why is one act the name we give it and the other act never the name we give it?

And I agree with you that many Christians concur that forgiving is a thought. But I also think many Christians believe forgiving can also be an action. A common definition of forgive from dictionary.com is:

1. To grant a pardon for a remission of (an offense, debt, etc.).

Forgive

Isn't this what Jesus claims the Father has given him authority to do? Isn't this what he wants us to do--not just in our personal lives, but also in our church communities?

(Now I know we don't have the authority or responsibility to pardon someone eternally, but I'm asking if have the authority and duty to pardon someone temporally. And if we do, then do you believe the common definition of the word forgive is incorrect?)

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

(John 20:23)

 

[grandmamary1219]

Man's logic can never understand God's love. God's love defies all logic, really. God's love loves the sinner before the sinner repents! God's love draws the sinner into repentance! God's love keeps the sinner repentant. God's love saves sinners.

Logical man cannot comprehend this agape love. Logical man cannot be saved because logical man will not repent. Sad thing really.

Praying that faith will overcome our logic and we will not put God into our logic boxes any longer.

Much love, many prayers, grandmamary1219

 

[Spockrates]

Man's logic can never understand God's love. God's love defies all logic, really. God's love loves the sinner before the sinner repents! God's love draws the sinner into repentance! God's love keeps the sinner repentant. God's love saves sinners.

Logical man cannot comprehend this agape love. Logical man cannot be saved because logical man will not repent. Sad thing really.

Praying that faith will overcome our logic and we will not put God into our logic boxes any longer.

Much love, many prayers, grandmamary1219

Thanks, Grandma, but I'm seeking God's logic, rather than man's.

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

(1 Corinthians 2)

I'm seeking the wisdom of which Paul speaks--God's wisdom about forgiving.

 

[Strypes]

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

(1 Corinthians 2)

I'm seeking the wisdom of which Paul speaks--God's wisdom about forgiving.

Really? By playing devil's advocate with scripture? Seriously?

Logical man cannot comprehend this agape love. Logical man cannot be saved because logical man will not repent. Sad thing really.

Indeed.




From post #11...

Forgiveness is a gift. God's gift to us and our gifts to those we forgive. According to the world it is not logical for someone to forgive someone that has harmed them in some way. Like love, forgiveness is a choice. Feelings are irrelevant.

Experiencing God comes from the heart and can not be understood by the head. God's love is beyond measure and to fully comprehend it is beyond the human experience. God gives wisdom to those who ask with a heart willing to learn.

Strypes:

Thanks for the advice, but what should I let go of?

Your specific issue that you find unforgivable.

 

[Strypes]

From the song "Hold Me Jesus"

"Surrender doesn't come natural to me..
I'd rather fight you for something I don't really want
than to take what you give that I need.
I beat my head against so many walls
Now I'm falling down, I'm falling on my knees"
~Rich Mullians

If you are truly seeking God's wisdom, on your knees is a good place to begin..
Tiz true