Sinless Perfection?

[Dave M]

For the love of God sinlessness is certainly our goal, but if we deny the possibility of ever attaining it, where is our faith?

@amadeus2 always good to here from you my freind. for me I am not claiming or denying the possibility of ever attaining it I think the timing on attaining it is the main area of disagreement. For me personally knowing the selfish nature of the flesh I do not see how it is attainable while we are in the flesh? but I will keep trying for sure because I am certain it is attainable in the spirit and with our resurrected bodies.

Hope your having a great weekend brother

 

[Dave M]

Where did Adam and Eve get their human spirit and their heart, if not from the same God we serve? Why could they fall into sin if we cannot? What God has given us through the sacrifice of His Son is an opportunity to do what Adam and Eve could have done but did not do.

you know thats a great question but I wonder were Adam and eve like us they lived before the curse we lived after it

 

[amadeus2]

• I would suppose, if you have perfect faith, without one scintilla of doubt in your body or mind I would agree , you are perfect and without sin!
• @Curtis , you can speak for me anytime!

So is this not direction which we are to walk? Peter by faith stepped out onto the water and walked on the water as Jesus was doing. Peter was fine until he looked away from Jesus and down at the perilous waters under his feet and then he began to sink. Let us pray and ask God to help us always keep our eyes on Jesus so that we never sink:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:7-11

 

[amadeus2]

Are you without sin? Have you come to the place were you now have a incorruptible body that has no sin at all?

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thank God for the next verse!!!!

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Why would you or should you ask me if I am without sin? Are you preparing to sit in judgment on me if according to you give the wrong answer?

The message I preach/teach is the one that I have heard Jesus teaching... that all things are possible for God even though many of them are impossible for men. Are you on the same side as Jesus? What is impossible for God?

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

 

[amadeus2]

@amadeus2 always good to here from you my freind. for me I am not claiming or denying the possibility of ever attaining it I think the timing on attaining it is the main area of disagreement. For me personally knowing the selfish nature of the flesh I do not see how it is attainable while we are in the flesh? but I will keep trying for sure because I am certain it is attainable in the spirit and with our resurrected bodies.

Hope your having a great weekend brother

Hello good brother!
Yes, the timing is the question, but why? Who would limit God other than you and I? Man is certainly limited by his own weakness and lack of faith, but God is only limited according to the power He gave man. If we surrender control of ourselves to Him there should be no limit at all:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

They did it and we do it. That is we limit God by our lack of faith, by our unbelief.

Your trying to be and overcomer will not get you there. Man cannot overcome alone. What he must do is surrender so that God can do the work. This is why apostle Paul admonished:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

The Spirit of God in us is the power required to walk as Jesus walk, but we still have our own will tempted and even at times led by the temptations of the world. We cannot overcome that world with its temptations, but that Holy Spirit in us can.

Give God the glory! Do not deny His power!

 

[Curtis]

Why would you or should you ask me if I am without sin? Are you preparing to sit in judgment on me if according to you give the wrong answer?

The message I preach/teach is the one that I have heard Jesus teaching... that all things are possible for God even though many of them are impossible for men. Are you on the same side as Jesus? What is impossible for God?

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

What did the scriptures I just posted say to you?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[amadeus2]

you know thats a great question but I wonder were Adam and eve like us they lived before the curse we lived after it

Before they disobeyed God, were Adam and Eve not sinless even as Jesus was sinless? But, they disobeyed and the Way to Life was closed to them and everyone until Jesus was sent to re-open the Way. Now we are supposed to return to where Adam and Eve [sinless] so that we can take the step they never took and partake of the Tree of Life:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

 

[amadeus2]

What did the scriptures I just posted say to you?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This is saying that we are not to say it, not that we not to allow God to do it.

If we do not overcome as Jesus overcame how will any of us ever partake of the Tree of Life and live always with Him?

 

[Curtis]

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,

Who are those who "overcome"?

1John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

How can one have the right to the tree of life?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (KJV)

What are his commandments that give us the right to the tree of life?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. (ESV)

how can a person "wash their robes?"

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Curtis]

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Evidently there are some things in me that need to be fixed because of some kind of sin(s), but that completion will not be completed until the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[At Peace]

My pleasure
practicing sin is with out repentance done as a way of life with no thought about it
1 John 3:4

It is written..."Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
The word "practice" isn't in my bible.
1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Even intermittent sin shows that one is not "born of God".
Just one sin shows that one is not of God's seed.

stumbling in sin and then repenting is what a believer does
1 John 1:9

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Can't the man who has been "cleansed from all unrighteousness" say he has no sin?
A true "turn from" sin will insure he never sins again.

hope that clears things up for you buddy.

Not at all.
You write that nobody can be free of sin, but then say that after every sin you repent and are free from sin.
This makes 1 John 1:6 a lie..."If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
Your POV infers that the "stumbler" does have fellowship with God.

Why not just manifest that you love God above all else and quit hurting yourself and others, and God, with your sins?
It is the gifts God showers us with that make it possible, but you have to commit to it.
There are no 99% born of God, 1% born of the devil, people..

 

[At Peace]

Yes, I have a desire to do this.

• BC (Before Christ), I did not!
• AC (After Christ) I do
• And, I realize it is my repentant heart that is the change
• I also now understand that sin is much more complex than I can possibly know but , I am not a slave to it , and when I unwisely do something wrong, that I don't see, I am covered by Christi's blood that washes me still!

If you commit "it" you ARE a slave to "it".
It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
He also said that no man can serve two masters, and that he will hate the one and love the other.
Servants of sin hate God.

Oh thank you Father for giving us the truth that can set us free from service to sin!
Thank you for the gifts of repentance from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins.
Thank you for the Comforter.
And thank you for scripture like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Thank you for the escapes!

 

[B-A-C]

The word "commiteth" ( or more accurately "practices" ) in the Greek is...

διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
Total KJV occurrences: 610

The one who commits sin "occasionally" or "casually". Is different from the one who commits sin once or twice.

 

[At Peace]

There is no such a thing as a Christian with out sin, and if anyone says they are, are self deceived, and the truth in not in them. All Christians struggle against sin, and sometimes fall. Even Jesus struggled against sin, and he was sinless!

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

There is no such thing as a Christian who serves sin.
The seed of God remains in them.
I've been chastised for my past sins: chastised enough not to do them anymore.

 

[At Peace]

When I was saved by doing Romans 10:9
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Perhaps THAT is your problem.
Show me one place in scripture where Paul or Peter converted anyone with an oral confession.
Without baptism, (in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins), you don't undergo the crucifixion, burial, or being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
You still walk in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
You missed out on rebirth from the incorruptible seed of God.

All my past sins were washed away at that moment, but I still had a corruptible fleshly body that still had a human nature with desires contrary to the will of God that needed to be mortified by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Did I know how do that? Absolutely not. I did not even know who the Holy Spirit was, or how to accomplish that task. I did not know how to crucify the flesh, nor did I know how the devil works or any of his devices how he entices men to sin.
That understanding takes a life time and then some to learn as I grew in the Lord and power of his strength.

You took the bait of the sinning, false church.

 

[At Peace]

The rebirthed human spirit is NOT wicked, and can not be defiled because Christ is our new heart!!!!

You are absolutely right.
That leaves the fact that the wicked, defiled human doesn't have Christ in their heart.

A Christian can never have darkness in them even though one might be walking in darkness because of some un confessed sin, which is why God disciplines every son he receives. If you are without discipline in which ALL are partakers then you are not a son of God.

Any sin shows that your repentance from sin was a lie to God.
No relationship, especially with God, can be built on lies.

 

[At Peace]

Are you without sin? Have you come to the place were you now have a incorruptible body that has no sin at all?

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thank God for the next verse!!!!

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So you CAN be cleansed from ALL unrighteousness...but you just can't say it?
How ludicrous.

 

[At Peace]

The word "commiteth" ( or more accurately "practices" ) in the Greek is...

διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
Total KJV occurrences: 610

The one who commits sin "occasionally" or "casually". Is different from the one who commits sin once or twice.

No they are not.
Both show they are not of God's seed, and by their service to sin show that they hate God.
Your focus on this one word blinds you to the rest of the verse..."for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

 

[B-A-C]

No they are not.

Yes, they are... even in your Bible.

 

[At Peace]

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Evidently there are some things in me that need to be fixed because of some kind of sin(s), but that completion will not be completed until the day of Jesus Christ.

Today is the day...
It is written..."We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)" (2 Cor 6:1-2)