Sinless Perfection?

[Curtis]

Sinless Perfection?

There is a growing number of people who associate themselves with the body of Christ, who say they are sinless in this life! The Bible does not teach this anywhere. The Apostle John tells us.......

1Jn 1:8 IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES, and the truth is not in us.

The first thing scripture reveals within a person is their sinfulness. We are sinners saved by grace, but when truth is reveled inside the heart of man he finds his sinfulness is much worse then what he originally thought! Christians are not “sinless”, but we certainly should sin less!

The Apostle Paul tells us....

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Rom 7:18 For I KNOW THAT IN ME (THAT IS, IN MY FLESH,) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH:

The human physical body is so corrupted with sin (in our flesh) it can NOT be fixed, it must be changed. That change will not take place until Jesus returns. As it is written.....

1Co 15:53 For THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So WHEN THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL HAVE PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We are told.......

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 LET NOT SIN THEREFORE REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF YE THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YE SHALL LIVE.

Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can a Christian “mortify the deeds of his body”. Keeping the flesh under does not make sin disappear in the flesh it only prevents sin from controlling that person.

The scripture that these “sinless” people claim is this.......

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN.

They say, “See Curtis, we can be sinless because the blood of Jesus Christ is cleansing us from ALL sin if we walk in the light!!

That kind of interpretation of scripture is in major error, because, if we are sinless while walking in the light we would NOT need the blood of Jesus to cleanse from any kind of sin!!

Light refers to knowledge, and understanding of God. Understanding is Wisdom that comes from God when he reveals himself to any being. “The entrance of his Word gives light”. “In his light we see light”. “God is light”

Walking in light is walking in your understanding of God himself. This understanding does not happen all at once as it takes time to come into the understanding of God as he teaches us his ways. I walk in God's light according to my understanding he has given unto me. There are areas I do not yet have understanding in.

I am required from God to walk in what I know now, not in what I am yet to learn in the future. We all sin in areas that we do not yet know, and this is were the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. FOR UNTO WHOMSOEVER MUCH IS GIVEN, OF HIM SHALL BE MUCH REQUIRED: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Every single born again Christian is chastise for sins he commits, and does not confess to his Father. God does not chastise us when we do good, only when we sin, and not confess them to him.

Heb 12:6 FOR THE LORD DISCIPLINES THE ONE HE LOVES, and CHASTISES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 IF YOU ARE LEFT WITHOUT DISCIPLINE, IN WHICH ALL HAVE PARTICIPATED, THEN YOU ARE ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN AND NOT SONS.

No Christian is sinless in this life, and if we say we are without sin we have “deceived” our self's, if we ever say we have not sinned we are calling God a liar, and his truth never was in us.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.

 

[Dave M]

some also say if you are not sinless you are not saved. seems they can not distinguish between practicing sin and stumbling in sin.

 

[Dave M]

you know the thing is people can think what ever they want to think thats there business, but I have herd some people with this type of belief you speak say they are street evangelist, and that is what really concerns me. But really not a whole lot can be done about it I guess. Just pray for them.

 

[Curtis]

you know the thing is people can think what ever they want to think thats there business, but I have herd some people with this type of belief you speak say they are street evangelist, and that is what really concerns me. But really not a whole lot can be done about it I guess. Just pray for them.

Any time we say we have no sin, or do not sin, or we are sinless then what need would we have for the Holy Spirit, or the Blood of Jesus, or Jesus himself? On the contrary, we will always at all times be in need of the blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit who gives us the power over the deeds of our body, and over our tongue. We are totally dependent on the Lord for everything all the time. This kind of teaching is a danger, especially to those who do not know the truth. They must be apposed at every turn with the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

 

[At Peace]

Sinless Perfection?

There is a growing number of people who associate themselves with the body of Christ, who say they are NOT sinless in this life! The Bible does not teach this anywhere. The Apostle John tells us........

..."If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (1 John 1:6)
So what does the bible say about "darkness"?
"The way of the wicked is as darkness:..." (Pro 4:19)
No man can say they have fellowship with God if they are wicked.

 

[At Peace]

you know the thing is people can think what ever they want to think thats there business, but I have herd some people with this type of belief you speak say they are street evangelist, and that is what really concerns me. But really not a whole lot can be done about it I guess. Just pray for them.

Hmmm...
You must have forgotten about John 9:31.
It does gladden my heart and edify my soul to hear that there others preaching obedience to God.

 

[At Peace]

Any time we say we have no sin, or do not sin, or we are sinless then what need would we have for the Holy Spirit, or the Blood of Jesus, or Jesus himself? On the contrary, we will always at all times be in need of the blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit who gives us the power over the deeds of our body, and over our tongue. We are totally dependent on the Lord for everything all the time. This kind of teaching is a danger, especially to those who do not know the truth. They must be apposed at every turn with the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

Were you not "sinless" when you walked out of the waters of baptism..."for the remission of sins"?

 

[At Peace]

some also say if you are not sinless you are not saved. seems they can not distinguish between practicing sin and stumbling in sin.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to differentiate between the two?
Is two sins a week practicing or stumbling?
Is forty sins a year practicing or stumbling?
Scripture should be able to clear this up, as it is such an important issue, eh?
Please provide the basis of your POV.

 

[At Peace]

Any time we say we have no sin, or do not sin, or we are sinless then what need would we have for the Holy Spirit, or the Blood of Jesus, or Jesus himself? On the contrary, we will always at all times be in need of the blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit who gives us the power over the deeds of our body, and over our tongue. We are totally dependent on the Lord for everything all the time. This kind of teaching is a danger, especially to those who do not know the truth. They must be apposed at every turn with the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

If it is the "Holy Spirit who gives us the power over the deeds of our body", doesn't it stand to reason that those who allow their bodies to be defiled DON'T have the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dave M]

Perhaps you would be kind enough to differentiate between the two?
Is two sins a week practicing or stumbling?
Is forty sins a year practicing or stumbling?
Scripture should be able to clear this up, as it is such an important issue, eh?
Please provide the basis of your POV.

My pleasure

practicing sin is with out repentance done as a way of life with no thought about it
1 John 3:4

stumbling in sin and then repenting is what a believer does
1 John 1:9

hope that clears things up for you buddy.

 

[Born Again 2004]

stumbling in sin and then repenting is what a believer does
1 John 1:9

Yes, I have a desire to do this.

• BC (Before Christ), I did not!
• AC (After Christ) I do
• And, I realize it is my repentant heart that is the change
• I also now understand that sin is much more complex than I can possibly know but , I am not a slave to it , and when I unwisely do something wrong, that I don't see, I am covered by Christi's blood that washes me still!

 

[Dave M]

@Born Again 2004

Yes when I first got saved I was a infant in Christ, and I struggled with sexual immorality I was not cured of it instantly, but I kept the course and every time I stumbled I felt such greif and repented and finally starting fasting and now My Lord has taken away the desire almost 100% from me and its been so long since I stumbled, I cant remember.

This to me is my real world example of stumbling in a sin.

Yes I do believe God can do anything and cure people instantly and may do that with some people. But no one I know has he ever done that with. Nor has he done that with me.

Now if I was to listen to someone say we are cured instantly and will sin no more instantly, as infant in Christ and believed that person I may have lost all faith and hope, this is the very dangerous part that concerns me with people who say we will not ever sin again when we are saved. and they say if you do you are not saved. Very disheartening to say the least. this is a harmful doctrine that could cause some to loose hope.

Please NOTE I am not advocating sinning at all here, I hope that is clear

In my life now I could actually say I sin no more if I took a quick look, through eyes of men

but when I really look hard I see something else, ---- just the other night my Aunt called me, I did not pick up the phone I let it go to voice mail. when I take a hard look at why it becomes clear I was selfish and putting myself needing to rest in front of another persons need to talk to me. this is sinful as I see it,. its being selfish. Now as humans in the flesh it might not seem sinful, but I think compared to someone who was willing to die for me and see how UN SELFISH JESUS was I see just how selfish it is for not to pick up the phone.

So from human secular eyes I may very well appear sinless, but from spiritual eyes I know I am selfish sin nature I have to fight every day. And thank God for providing a advocate for my forgiveness.

 

[amadeus2]

For the love of God sinlessness is certainly our goal, but if we deny the possibility of ever attaining it, where is our faith?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

"But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matt 14:30-31

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

And who is that we have to do the work in us?

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

Again the question: "...wherefore didst thou doubt?"

 

[Curtis]

If it is the "Holy Spirit who gives us the power over the deeds of our body", doesn't it stand to reason that those who allow their bodies to be defiled DON'T have the Holy Spirit?

There is no such a thing as a Christian with out sin, and if anyone says they are, are self deceived, and the truth in not in them. All Christians struggle against sin, and sometimes fall. Even Jesus struggled against sin, and he was sinless!

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Curtis]

Were you not "sinless" when you walked out of the waters of baptism..."for the remission of sins"?

When I was saved by doing Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

All my past sins were washed away at that moment, but I still had a corruptible fleshly body that still had a human nature with desires contrary to the will of God that needed to be mortified by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Did I know how do that? Absolutely not. I did not even know who the Holy Spirit was, or how to accomplish that task. I did not know how to crucify the flesh, nor did I know how the devil works or any of his devices how he entices men to sin.
That understanding takes a life time and then some to learn as I grew in the Lord and power of his strength.

 

[amadeus2]

There is no such a thing as a Christian with out sin, and if anyone says they are, are self deceived, and the truth in not in them.

Please speak only for you and you alone on this. What is a Christian but someone who is and is seeking to be like Christ? Is this not a goal that God wants us to pursue? Alone it is certainly an impossibility, but God does not intend for us to accomplish this alone. He sent His Son and He sent the Holy Ghost. You are effectively saying that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are powerless to help us accomplish the will of God

All Christians struggle against sin, and sometimes fall. Even Jesus struggled against sin, and he was sinless!

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

The chastisement is certainly needed when we pressed the wrong way and God seeks to help us, but if we simply surrender to Him following the lead of the Holy Ghost it is not impossible and we will be like Jesus, will we not?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[Curtis]

..."If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (1 John 1:6)
So what does the bible say about "darkness"?
"The way of the wicked is as darkness:..." (Pro 4:19)
No man can say they have fellowship with God if they are wicked.

The rebirthed human spirit is NOT wicked, and can not be defiled because Christ is our new heart!!!! A Christian can never have darkness in them even though one might be walking in darkness because of some un confessed sin, which is why God disciplines every son he receives. If you are without discipline in which ALL are partakers then you are not a son of God.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Please speak only for you and you alone on this. What is a Christian but someone who is and is seeking to be like Christ? Is this not a goal that God wants us to pursue? Alone it is certainly an impossibility, but God does not intend for us to accomplish this alone. He sent His Son and He sent the Holy Ghost. You are effectively saying that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are powerless to help us accomplish the will of God



The chastisement is certainly needed when we pressed the wrong way and God seeks to help us, but if we simply surrender to Him following the lead of the Holy Ghost it is not impossible and we will be like Jesus, will we not?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

• I would suppose, if you have perfect faith, without one scintilla of doubt in your body or mind I would agree , you are perfect and without sin!
• @Curtis , you can speak for me on this issue, you are not alone!

 

[amadeus2]

The rebirthed human spirit is NOT wicked, and can not be defiled because Christ is our new heart!!!! A Christian can never have darkness in them even though one might be walking in darkness because of some un confessed sin, which is why God disciplines every son he receives. If you are without discipline in which ALL are partakers then you are not a son of God.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Where did Adam and Eve get their human spirit and their heart, if not from the same God we serve? Why could they fall into sin if we cannot? What God has given us through the sacrifice of His Son is an opportunity to do what Adam and Eve could have done but did not do.

 

[Curtis]

Please speak only for you and you alone on this.

Are you without sin? Have you come to the place were you now have a incorruptible body that has no sin at all?

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thank God for the next verse!!!!

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.