Sinning never ends

[KingJ]

Oh really? I thought you believe babies have no sin. Actually, this is another reason leftists support abortion, that since babies have no sin, they die, they go straight to heaven. But in reality that just denies their chance to know Christ and go to heaven through him.

Well that is sick. Babies go to heaven because God is not an idiot.

People who kill babies sin. If you know a baby is alive, it is murder.

Babies don't have sin,no. How do you translate me saying we all fall into sin to we are born with sin? God knows an intelligent creation needs true free will. So He gives them it. He knows it is inevitable that they will choose sin because of their intelligence and free will environment in which good and evil exists. A baby has not got the acumen to make the choice and we know from scripture that God spared all children up to teenagers in the wilderness. We also know that God is not an idiot but a righteous and just judge.

Isa 61:8 For I, the Lord, love justice.
Job 34:12 Surely, God will not act wickedly, And the Almighty will not pervert justice.
Deut 32:4 The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Well that is sick. Babies go to heaven because God is not an idiot.

People who kill babies sin. If you know a baby is alive, it is murder.

Babies don't have sin,no. How do you translate me saying we all fall into sin to we are born with sin? God knows an intelligent creation needs true free will. So He gives them it. He knows it is inevitable that they will choose sin because of their intelligence and free will environment in which good and evil exists. A baby has not got the acumen to make the choice and we know from scripture that God spared all children up to teenagers in the wilderness. We also know that God is not an idiot but a righteous and just judge.

"Through one man's offense judgement came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation," Rom. 5:18. Your ideology of "babies sinless, adults sinful" is not only unbiblical and dumb, but also dangerous, because that's the underlying philosophy of today's leftist mob that has taken over the entire western world, and you're sharing and defending it. In that logic, we should stay as babies forever and never grow up, because we would "all fall into sin," right? That's why we've got a whole generation of babies who can't take any responsibility, all they can do is crying out loud like babies, and that causes the whole nation to suffer.

Of course God is not an idiot, you are. You are preaching their leftist ideology. And nowhere in the Torah says "God spared all children up to teenagers in the wilderness from hell, from sin or from death", all they got was just access to the promised land, and they still had to fight for it. You're making all these stuffs up.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I will wait for you to have babies and then talk on this,

If I do by God's blessing, I'll surely introduce Yeshua to him so he can be saved FROM SIN, instead of overflowing with emotion and pretending that he's "sinless" with no need for Yeshua.

What denomination are you?

Every Christian I know believes in true free will, except for Calvinists.

Yeah, "every Christian", but not heathens. Free will is a gift from God through Christ like salvation, you can only have it if you accept it. If you don't, you're still a slave to sin. Haven't I made that clear?

 

[KingJ]

If I do by God's blessing, I'll surely introduce Yeshua to him so he can be saved FROM SIN, instead of overflowing with emotion and pretending that he's "sinless" with no need for Yeshua.

So you expecting a 'him'?

Better not tell him that you believe he will go to eternal fire if he dies early in life. Imagine that

Yeah, "every Christian", but not heathens. Free will is a gift from God through Christ like salvation, you can only have it if you accept it. If you don't, you're still a slave to sin. Haven't I made that clear?

You talking like you don't understand what free will is. You are also not understanding that ''prior'' to Jesus nobody was 'defaulted' to eternal fire. Prior to Jesus those that repented of their sin were placed in Abraham's bosom.

 

[KingJ]

"Through one man's offense judgement came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation," Rom. 5:18. Your ideology of "babies sinless, adults sinful" is not only unbiblical and dumb, but also dangerous, because that's the underlying philosophy of today's leftist mob that has taken over the entire western world, and you're sharing and defending it. In that logic, we should stay as babies forever and never grow up, because we would "all fall into sin," right? That's why we've got a whole generation of babies who can't take any responsibility, all they can do is crying out loud like babies, and that causes the whole nation to suffer.

Of course God is not an idiot, you are. You are preaching their leftist ideology. And nowhere in the Torah says "God spared all children up to teenagers in the wilderness from hell, from sin or from death", all they got was just access to the promised land, and they still had to fight for it. You're making all these stuffs up.

You are cherry picking Rom 5:18. The context is that all his descendants / mankind are born ''outside of Eden''. Not ''with'' sin . Jesus restores mankind to ''Eden''.

 

[KingJ]

Your ideology of "babies sinless, adults sinful" is not only unbiblical and dumb, but also dangerous, because that's the underlying philosophy of today's leftist mob that has taken over the entire western world, and you're sharing and defending it. In that logic, we should stay as babies forever and never grow up, because we would "all fall into sin," right? That's why we've got a whole generation of babies who can't take any responsibility, all they can do is crying out loud like babies, and that causes the whole nation to suffer.

What is dangerous is teaching God is a fool who 1. Incriminates people for sin they have not committed and 2. teaching He will send babies and children to eternal fire.

This is false teaching, heretical and miss-representation of God to the lost. God will not be impressed with how you represent Him to the lost. You better start thinking about your judgement day with Him.

God rewards and punishes each according to their deeds Rom 2:6.

 

[KingJ]

Of course God is not an idiot, you are. You are preaching their leftist ideology. And nowhere in the Torah says "God spared all children up to teenagers in the wilderness from hell, from sin or from death", all they got was just access to the promised land, and they still had to fight for it. You're making all these stuffs up.

Numbers 32:11 Because they have not followed me wholeheartedly, not one of those who were twenty years old or more when they came up out of Egypt will see the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob 12 not one except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua son of Nun, for they followed the Lord wholeheartedly.

The point is that God spared all under twenty. Now you say they are not spared from sin or death? What is wrong with your reasoning ability? The point made is that God did not ''''''''destroy''''''' babies and children under twenty.

Regarding their free will and choices of sin and death. God is impartial Acts 10:34. If God put the devil with Adam and Eve to test them, He will do it with all mankind. Children, babies and mentally handicapped will have their day to grow up and be tested by the devil. Most scholars believe this will be in the millennium as the devil is released for a short while to tempt mankind for the last time Rev 20:3.

None of this is leftist idealogy. I don't like the left and their beliefs. That is quite a nasty thing to accuse me of. Can you support that claim?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The point is that God spared all under twenty. Now you say they are not spared from sin or death? What is wrong with your reasoning ability? The point made is that God did not ''''''''destroy''''''' babies and children under twenty.

Where does it say they are spared from death and sin? They got to enter the Promised Land, that’s it. And clearly Promised Land is still just a piece of land, it’s not heaven, as in the Promised Land they still sinned and died.

 

[KingJ]

Where does it say they are spared from death and sin? They got to enter the Promised Land, that’s it. And clearly Promised Land is still just a piece of land, it’s not heaven, as in the Promised Land they still sinned and died.

The point is that children were spared. Yes, correct, they then grew up in the promised land and sure, as adults they would be tried on their love or hatred of sin. That part we agree on. You are not acknowledging the part of children being excempt from judgement though.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

So you expecting a 'him'?

Better not tell him that you believe he will go to eternal fire if he dies early in life. Imagine that

Thanks for your concern, but that's up to God, not you or me.

You talking like you don't understand what free will is. You are also not understanding that ''prior'' to Jesus nobody was 'defaulted' to eternal fire. Prior to Jesus those that repented of their sin were placed in Abraham's bosom.

Yeah, and guess what, all the righteous still go there, instead of heaven, as I said before. The difference is, after Yeshua there's no more excuse.

You are cherry picking Rom 5:18. The context is that all his descendants / mankind are born ''outside of Eden''. Not ''with'' sin . Jesus restores mankind to ''Eden''.

That's another heresy. The context is the original sin and salvation from sin. There's no "Eden" restored until the New Jerusalem.

What is dangerous is teaching God is a fool who 1. Incriminates people for sin they have not committed and 2. teaching He will send babies and children to eternal fire.

This is false teaching, heretical and miss-representation of God to the lost. God will not be impressed with how you represent Him to the lost. You better start thinking about your judgement day with Him.

God rewards and punishes each according to their deeds Rom 2:6.

Says you who accuses me of cherrypicking? The impartiality in Rom. 2 is all about Jews being treated equally with the gentiles, just because they were a chosen people at first doesn't mean they get special treatment from God, the playing field is leveled, that's the overall context of the chapter, which you totally ignored.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The point is that children were spared. Yes, correct, they then grew up in the promised land and sure, as adults they would be tried on their love or hatred of sin. That part we agree on. You are not acknowledging the part of children being excempt from judgement though.

What judgement and how were they "exempted" from that? They were still judged with a devastating defeat in Joshua 7 at the battle of Ai, and they were still under the rule of law given by Moses, which was renewed by Joshua in 8:30-35. You're pushing a false narrative based on false interpretation.

 

[KingJ]

What judgement and how were they "exempted" from that? They were still judged with a devastating defeat in Joshua 7 at the battle of Ai, and they were still under the rule of law given by Moses, which was renewed by Joshua in 8:30-35. You're pushing a false narrative based on false interpretation.

I don't disagree with this, you are not reading what I wrote.

 

[KingJ]

What judgement and how were they "exempted" from that? They were still judged with a devastating defeat in Joshua 7 at the battle of Ai, and they were still under the rule of law given by Moses, which was renewed by Joshua in 8:30-35. You're pushing a false narrative based on false interpretation.

You just don't get it.

When God brings destruction, children and animals are ''''innocent victims'''.

 

[KingJ]

That's another heresy. The context is the original sin and salvation from sin. There's no "Eden" restored until the New Jerusalem.

I am using ''Eden'' as a metaphor for being cast out of His presence.

Says you who accuses me of cherrypicking? The impartiality in Rom. 2 is all about Jews being treated equally with the gentiles, just because they were a chosen people at first doesn't mean they get special treatment from God, the playing field is leveled, that's the overall context of the chapter, which you totally ignored.

Some verses are fine as stand alone verses.

When scripture says ''everyone'' it means ''everyone''. Not Jews only. As such, when Rom 2:7 says '' Who will render to every man according to his deeds''. It means ''Who will render to every man according to his deeds''.

Now, what ''Who will render to every man according to his deeds'' means, is that God 'will render to every man according to his deeds'.

Now, was Adam's sin of taking the forbidden fruit my sin? No, it was not. We know this because my name is not Adam. Adam was also a man who lived some 6000 years ago.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I don't disagree with this, you are not reading what I wrote.

You didn't specify what exactly were they spared from and what judgement fell upon the Israelites. The message in God's edict in Num. 32:11-12 just tells one thing, that only the younger generation under 20 was granted ACCESS to the Prominsed Land, that's it. Nowhere in it suggests or implies that they were above the law or spared from sin and death. On the contrary, there's one article that says children who rebelled against parents shall be judged publicly and stoned to death. As for the adults, God granted access to the Prominsed Land as well, but they REJECTED the offer because they believed in the ten spies instead of Joshua and Caleb! Therefore I wouldn't call that judgement, God just gave them what they wanted. Hmm, sounds pretty much like "free will" to me, don't you think?

You just don't get it.

When God brings destruction, children and animals are ''''innocent victims'''.

Oh great, there you go again, blame the parents. Then grandparents. Then great-grandparents. Then goes all the way back to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Hey, isn't that the original sin? Why don't you read John 9:1-3 again and meditate on that? Yeshua clearly said NEITHER, and you still don't get it.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Some verses are fine as stand alone verses.

When scripture says ''everyone'' it means ''everyone''. Not Jews only. As such, when Rom 2:7 says '' Who will render to every man according to his deeds''. It means ''Who will render to every man according to his deeds''.

Now, what ''Who will render to every man according to his deeds'' means, is that God 'will render to every man according to his deeds'.

Now, was Adam's sin of taking the forbidden fruit my sin? No, it was not. We know this because my name is not Adam. Adam was also a man who lived some 6000 years ago.

This one is just your cherrypick, and it's false. EVERY MAN is spoken in a sense of inclusivity, both Greek AND Jews, small and great, free and bound, poor and rich are now held accountable, you've completely twisted that. You think you're innocent of taking the frobidden fruit? Have you ever disobeyed your parents, your school master or your boss when you were a kid? Breaking their rules which were made in the first place for your benefit? Doing funny businesses behind their backs without their permission? Be honest to yourself, man, if you have, then you've already taken the forbidden fruit.

Also, curse of sin can definitely passed down from generation to generation, known as epigenetics. There are bad genes that can express in parents as a result of their sinful lifestyle and/or traumatic experience, and these are inherited by their children, which make them extra vulnerable to the risk of similar lifestyle and/or experience. Therefore, scientifically we still have sinned through Adam. All mankind originated from his gene pool, even though neither your name nor mine is Adam.

 

[KingJ]

Have you ever disobeyed your parents, your school master or your boss when you were a kid? Breaking their rules which were made in the first place for your benefit?

Jonathan you are all over the place.

I did not eat the forbidden fruit. The forbidden fruit was eaten by Adam and Eve some 6000 years ago. I was not alive at that time.

I have disobeyed parents. That is a different sin to eating the forbidden fruit. I do not blame Adam for my sin. Just as he can not blame me for his.

Once you grasp that, we can move on to the next point.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jonathan you are all over the place.

I did not eat the forbidden fruit. The forbidden fruit was eaten by Adam and Eve some 6000 years ago. I was not alive at that time.

I have disobeyed parents. That is a different sin to eating the forbidden fruit. I do not blame Adam for my sin. Just as he can not blame me for his.

Once you grasp that, we can move on to the next point.

Eating the forbidden fruit is NOT about the fruit itself, don't you think we do need to know good from evil? What's wrong is the spirit of rebellion against God. "The forbidden fruit is off limit? Great, then that's exactly what I'll go for! Yeah you told me all the trees in garden are free for me to eat, I've tasted them all, now this forbidden fruit is the only thing left on my list, and I just can't stop thinking about it! What? I would die if I eat it? You're just hiding its awesome power from me, that snake told me the truth! I eat it, I won't die, and I'll be like you!" See, that's the attitude. Don't tell me you've never had that, doing the exactly opposite of what you're told for your own good just out of spite. You know, with great power comes great responsibility, and Adam and Eve were not mature enough to take that responsibility until they were read. However, they got deceived by Satan and ate it anyway because of this attitude, and that is the real sin - not the damn fruit itself! How hard is it for you to grasp on that?

 

[KingJ]

Eating the forbidden fruit is NOT about the fruit itself, don't you think we do need to know good from evil? What's wrong is the spirit of rebellion against God. "The forbidden fruit is off limit? Great, then that's exactly what I'll go for! Yeah you told me all the trees in garden are free for me to eat, I've tasted them all, now this forbidden fruit is the only thing left on my list, and I just can't stop thinking about it! What? I would die if I eat it? You're just hiding its awesome power from me, that snake told me the truth! I eat it, I won't die, and I'll be like you!" See, that's the attitude. Don't tell me you've never had that, doing the exactly opposite of what you're told for your own good just out of spite. You know, with great power comes great responsibility, and Adam and Eve were not mature enough to take that responsibility until they were read. However, they got deceived by Satan and ate it anyway because of this attitude, and that is the real sin - not the damn fruit itself! How hard is it for you to grasp on that?

The action of eating the forbidden fruit is what incriminated Adam. Fullstop.

I repeat, I did not eat the fruit. Adam did and God will not ask me about the sin of eating the forbidden fruit it on my judgement day. Do you believe He will?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The action of eating the forbidden fruit is what incriminated Adam. Fullstop.

I repeat, I did not eat the fruit. Adam did and God will not ask me about the sin of eating the forbidden fruit it on my judgement day. Do you believe He will?

If you think this is just about behavior and some modification could fix that, you're gravely mistaken. Or maybe you believe as the Catholics taught that "eating the forbidden fruit" is a euphemism of premarital sex? I don't wanna go there, man. Either way, maybe we should just agree to disagree. May God bless you, give you peace and lead you to a study on the book of Romans so you can learn it better on this subject.