The fires of hell

[The Kreisel]

Hello @The Kreisel,

I can't play games with you on this. I am not capable of dealing with riddles and the twists and turns of a mind that will not be direct with me. I am saved by God's grace, and I praise His Holy name that the work that He has begun in me He will continue to do until the day of Christ, for He is faithful. That is what I want to dwell on, and not on game playing, On God's Word and not on word play.

Thank you
In the name of Christ my Saviour,
My Lord and Head.
Chris

Now you're reducing yourself to calling Matthew 16:18 'word-play'.
There are no games, I'm asking hard-core questions right out of scripture, and your mind is not renewed enough to meet the challenge.
Be honest about it.

 

[complete]

Yes amen, nice find.

The two lines that jump out at me as a harsh reminder to us of the importance of not miss-representing Him as wicked to the lost are '' a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.'''

Hello @KingJ,

Yes, He is a God of truth and without iniquity,' just and right is He': If you believe that why do you doubt that the judgments that God makes, whether it be by flood or fire, are not the expression of His Righteousness, and of His truth, as One Who is Just and True. For it is He that has made us, and not we ourselves. Who are we to call Him to account or to question His right to destroy the wicked.

God has a plan and purpose for the earth and the heavens which He created, and all who live within it: and it will be accomplished; and if in order to fulfill that purpose He also has to destroy that which is evil in order to do so, then who are we to question Him? Are we better than He is? Do we have greater love than He has? Surely in destroying the wicked in order to create a new heaven and a new earth in which dwells righteousness is an act of love, and of grace in itself?

Surely the misrepresentation that you speak of would be to deny this truth?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Now you're reducing yourself to calling Matthew 16:18 'word-play'.
There are no games, I'm asking hard-core questions right out of scripture, and your mind is not renewed enough to meet the challenge.
Be honest about it.

Hello @The Kreisel,

You made no mention of Matthew 16:18, this is what you said:-

'The Kreisel said:-
So you're saying you've passed through the "Gates of Hell" then? -
You've taken the keys from Jesus and have unlocked the gates of death and hell (Rev 1:8)?

You'll only 'appear with him in glory' IF you're "going from glory to glory" - II Cor 3:18.

* This was the entry you were referring to though I believe:-

The Kreisel said:-
I'm curious if you are inside or outside the "gates of hell" (Matthew 16:18) - Jesus said they won't prevail against HIS CHURCH.
Methinks they are prevailing quite well against the so-called church.

Be studious before you answer.

* Forgive me, but I do not understand your reasoning, neither entry makes sense to me, for it bears no relation to what I had said in the entries that you were responding to.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Are we better than He is? Do we have greater love than He has? Surely in destroying the wicked in order to create a new heaven and a new earth in which dwells righteousness is an act of love, and of grace in itself?

Surely the misrepresentation that you speak of would be to deny this truth?

Lets not rehash. As I said in my post above there are a lot of other factors to consider.

The two of us have God as just and righteous in full agreement.

I discuss with atheists very often. Every appearance of evil by God is jumped on. I have learnt first hand the importance of having a rational defense for scripture. Many of my friends and family have lost their faith due to statements made by Christians who do not always consider the full impact of their statements. Many Christians are innocent and seek only to defend God, they just need to work on the message. The devil is cunning, he will make the most of every appearance of evil.

 

[The Kreisel]

Hello @The Kreisel,

You made no mention of Matthew 16:18, this is what you said:-

* This was the entry you were referring to though I believe:-


* Forgive me, but I do not understand your reasoning, neither entry makes sense to me, for it bears no relation to what I had said in the entries that you were responding to.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

This is what I call, 'AvoiDance'.

 

[complete]

'And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(Mat 16:18)

Hello @The Kreisel,

No avoidance on my part, just mystification as to what on earth you were talking about. Forgive me for not being able to do so.

The gates of hell, or the grave (the place of the dead), will not prevail against those who are saved by God's grace, for the power of the resurrection will lift them up 'at the last day', as Jesus promised (John 6:39).

Thank you
In Christ Jeus
Chris

 

[complete]

Lets not rehash. As I said in my post above there are a lot of other factors to consider.

The two of us have God as just and righteous in full agreement.

I discuss with atheists very often. Every appearance of evil by God is jumped on. I have learnt first hand the importance of having a rational defense for scripture. Many of my friends and family have lost their faith due to statements made by Christians who do not always consider the full impact of their statements. Many Christians are innocent and seek only to defend God, they just need to work on the message. The devil is cunning, he will make the most of every appearance of evil.

Hello @KingJ,

It appears I have misunderstood you.

Forgive me
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

Hi Complete

You need to try present a stronger defense. On face value, annihilation seems truthful. Wages of sin is death and we all know that accepting Jesus gives us forgiveness from sin. Add that to all scripture where God destroys the wicked and yes, we can be forgiven for believing God will annihilate.

But, you cannot simply sweep under the rug these following facts and statements. They need to be dealt with.

The rational defense you have given is, ''God destroyed the wicked with the flood, what is wrong with Him doing it again after the white throne judgement''. Point noted, but it holds no water when interrogated.

1. Babies and children died during the flood. 2. Do you believe that all but Noah and his family were 10/10 wicked? 3. Do you believe Noah and his family had no sin? 4. How is the death penalty ''rewarding according to what they did'' Rom 2:6?

Christianity has only kept face with instances like the flood and Sodom because we ''add'' scripture that speaks to all children belonging to heaven and of a just judgement day for the wicked coming.

As such, events of God's annihilation of tribes on the earth is seen more as Him bringing change. We know from day 1 when He put the devil on earth with Adam and Eve that He has wanted a ''balance'' of good and evil. Cities like Sodom were lob-sided toward what is evil. That is why He dealt with them.

What is justice for a sinner? Please read 1 Cor 6:1-9 a couple of times. Note how Paul urges us to judge better then the unsaved. Note how Paul says we will judge the angels. Then read 1 Cor 5. Note how Paul ''singles'' out a person guilty of a specific sin, ''incest''. There were many other sinners in the church. Yet he singles out a person committing a certain sin.

When we ''remove'' all pre-conceived ideas and just look at it logically, the following becomes clear.

1. If the unsaved know to sentence a murderer to a longer prison sentence then a thief, how much more us, how much more a just God? If the unsaved debate all year long about lethal injection for the most grievous of sinners, how much more a good person, how much more God?

There is truth to God searching our hearts and only finding darkness. But there is also truth to darkness having levels and a judge only able to call himself just, if he recognises that.

2. Why will we judge angels in heaven? Did the devil sin long before he got removed from heaven? God could see the devils heart long before he was removed from heaven. Yet God only removed him at a certain point in time. The evidence points to the devil giving in to a depth of intent of sin / rebellion. We judge angels in heaven because angels in heaven disobey and sin 1 Cor 6:3. Must they all be cast into the furnace and be annihilated?

3. How will you go forward in a relationship with God if you know that rejection of Him, disobedience to Him will result in Him utterly annihilating you? Why would God keep hell burning for all eternity as a reminder to us who are saved? Annihilationists make this statement but don't actually apply their mind to it. It is terribly sick of God to do this. For an annihilationist it can ''only'' mean their salvation is not secure.

4. Why, when Jesus speaks to the demons, did they say ''torment before our time'' and not ''destroy us''. Why, if Jesus was going to ''destroy'' them, ''hates''' them, would He honor their request to be cast into pigs? Especially when we can all agree with the fact that there is no more hope for them.

5. Why do good people on earth sign a Geneva convention? The Geneva convention stipulates rules and regulations for the treatment of your enemy. Christians are told to love their enemy, should do better. Why would God be like the Russians who did not want to sign the Geneva convention as they wanted to kill the Germans.

The Geneva convention ensures that you do not repay evil with evil. You show you are good by treating those you don't have to be nice to, nice. If you torture or annihilate, it is not evidence of justice or 'good'.

What I find terribly sick from many Christians is the statement (which you did suggest) that because they made the effort to ''have faith / believe the unseen is seen'' they will not suffer the same fate as venial sinners who refused to repent of their dirty thoughts. This just makes the poor lost person roll their eyes at us. Makes them think God is even more ridiculous. A little faith has the ability to separate one sinner from utter annihilation, to eternal bliss.

There is so much more to Christian faith. There is so much more to God's judgement and plan for the wicked.

There is much to look at I would offer.

A little of the faith coming from God’s labor of love that works in us to both will and empower us to do his good will is all that is accredited to us. Its all that is needed to hear what the Spirit says to the churches or denominations.as he gives us ears to hear his faithful understandings

Unbelievers are reckoned at having “no faith” coming from above. None (zero) not little.

He alone is the one source of faith or understanding of the things not seen. His work in us must increase as we decrease .reasoning or the end of faith is not of us . He hides the understanding from the unbeliever (faithless) in parables So that in seeing with their eyes they see not and in hearing they hear not his interpretation Again they have no faith we have little.

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

He promised those who come under the hearing of His faith that he will not forget the good works we offer towards his name being yoked with him our burden is lighter . That work of Him accompanies our salvation .Not the product of our salvation .

Hebrew 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Looking again at his grace and mercy working as one .The Bible informs us that God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires and proclaims it is he that makes our hearts soft with the doctrines of God that fall like rain from heaven .You could say the water of the word , the gospel .

We are also informed that he magnifies his word as it is written above all his name or attributes and that he is subject to His own laws .This gives us comfort knowing he changes not. .

Psalm 138 King James Version (KJV) I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

James 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In that way faith is a work of God that he works in us to both will and empower us to eat the meat or strengthen us to finsish the good pleasure of His will

Again the law applies to our God. He does not have mercy on one as a free gift as a work of His faith and condemn another to suffer past the grave. It’s that kind of ideology that opened the way of purgatory wonderment with no end of faith in view. It does despite to the fullness of God’s grace. He does not give a remnant and say you finish it

Believers receive the end of their new born again faith from the beginning.

Death as to the letter of the law as in dying the end will come as will the suffering of hell . When the book of law is tossed in the eternal fire never to rise… hell which accompanies will also never rise again and condemn through corruption ( dying)another entire creation.

The death of death itself .. and its living suffering hell.

 

[complete]

There is much to look at I would offer.

A little of the faith coming from God’s labor of love that works in us to both will and empower us to do his good will is all that is accredited to us. Its all that is needed to hear what the Spirit says to the churches or denominations.as he gives us ears to hear his faithful understandings

Unbelievers are reckoned at having “no faith” coming from above. None (zero) not little.

He alone is the one source of faith or understanding of the things not seen. His work in us must increase as we decrease .reasoning or the end of faith is not of us . He hides the understanding from the unbeliever (faithless) in parables So that in seeing with their eyes they see not and in hearing they hear not his interpretation Again they have no faith we have little.

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

He promised those who come under the hearing of His faith that he will not forget the good works we offer towards his name being yoked with him our burden is lighter . That work of Him accompanies our salvation .Not the product of our salvation .

Hebrew 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Looking again at his grace and mercy working as one .The Bible informs us that God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires and proclaims it is he that makes our hearts soft with the doctrines of God that fall like rain from heaven .You could say the water of the word , the gospel .

We are also informed that he magnifies his word as it is written above all his name or attributes and that he is subject to His own laws .This gives us comfort knowing he changes not. .

Psalm 138 King James Version (KJV) I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

James 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In that way faith is a work of God that he works in us to both will and empower us to eat the meat or strengthen us to finish the good pleasure of His will

Again the law applies to our God. He does not have mercy on one as a free gift as a work of His faith and condemn another to suffer past the grave. It’s that kind of ideology that opened the way of purgatory wonderment with no end of faith in view. It does despite to the fullness of God’s grace. He does not give a remnant and say you finish it

Believers receive the end of their new born again faith from the beginning.

Death as to the letter of the law as in dying the end will come as will the suffering of hell . When the book of law is tossed in the eternal fire never to rise… hell which accompanies will also never rise again and condemn through corruption ( dying )another entire creation.

The death of death itself .. and its living suffering hell.

'The entrance of Thy words giveth light;
it giveth understanding unto the simple.'
(Psalm 119:130)

'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Romans 10:17)

Hello @Garee,

* Thank you for your response. Before I begin, I must apologise in advance for any misunderstanding on my part, for I find it difficult to always understand what is being said, when something is being expressed in a manner that I am unfamiliar with. We have not spoken before so your approach is new to me.

* By definition an unbeliever has no faith. Yet an unbeliever must have heard the gospel of salvation in order to have declared that he does not believe it. The entrance of God's word brings light (or knowledge) but that knowledge does not necessarily result in faith. Yes?

* Without faith, Hebrews 11:6 tells us, it is impossible to please God, and that he who comes to God must of necessity believe that He IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Yes? Abraham believed God, and it was 'counted' or 'imputed' unto him for righteousness (Romans 4:3; James 2:23). He had heard the promises God made to Him, and believed them, and proved it by his resulting obedience to the word He had received.

* While I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me (Romans 5:8). It was done. Yet in order to receive the salvation that His death and resurrection secured: I needed to know what He had done and why. I had to know that I had sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12) ), and that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), for only then would I understand why the Lord Jesus Christ took my sin upon Himself and died in my place, for it was that my sins may be forgiven, and that I may be able to receive the promise of life through Him. That necessitated that I hear the word of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, that believing I may have life through His name (John 20:31) - ( i.e., His person and His work) , For in Him was life, and His life was the light of men (John 1:4). The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16) to everyone who believes,

* Jesus tells us in John 6:28-29 that the work that God requires is to believe on Him whom He hath sent:- namely Christ Himself.

* Yes, I believe that God works in the believer to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13): and that God magnified His word (Psalm 138:2) by fulfilling it beyond all expectation.

* I also believe that the believer is saved and sealed the moment that faith enters

* Garee, I feel that I have missed the point you are trying to make. If I have, please let me know, and forgive the disjointed nature of my response.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

'The entrance of Thy words giveth light;
it giveth understanding unto the simple.'
(Psalm 119:130)

'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Romans 10:17)

Hello @Garee,

* Thank you for your response. Before I begin, I must apologise in advance for any misunderstanding on my part, for I find it difficult to always understand what is being said, when something is being expressed in a manner that I am unfamiliar with. We have not spoken before so your approach is new to me.

* By definition an unbeliever has no faith. Yet an unbeliever must have heard the gospel of salvation in order to have declared that he does not believe it. The entrance of God's word brings light (or knowledge) but that knowledge does not necessarily result in faith. Yes?

* Without faith, Hebrews 11:6 tells us, it is impossible to please God, and that he who comes to God must of necessity believe that He IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Yes? Abraham believed God, and it was 'counted' or 'imputed' unto him for righteousness (Romans 4:3; James 2:23). He had heard the promises God made to Him, and believed them, and proved it by his resulting obedience to the word He had received.

* While I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me (Romans 5:8). It was done. Yet in order to receive the salvation that His death and resurrection secured: I needed to know what He had done and why. I had to know that I had sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12) ), and that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), for only then would I understand why the Lord Jesus Christ took my sin upon Himself and died in my place, for it was that my sins may be forgiven, and that I may be able to receive the promise of life through Him. That necessitated that I hear the word of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, that believing I may have life through His name (John 20:31) - ( i.e., His person and His work) , For in Him was life, and His life was the light of men (John 1:4). The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16) to everyone who believes,

* Jesus tells us in John 6:28-29 that the work that God requires is to believe on Him whom He hath sent:- namely Christ Himself.

* Yes, I believe that God works in the believer to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13): and that God magnified His word (Psalm 138:2) by fulfilling it beyond all expectation.

* I also believe that the believer is saved and sealed the moment that faith enters

* Garee, I feel that I have missed the point you are trying to make. If I have, please let me know, and forgive the disjointed nature of my response.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well said , well writen. I am more of the disjointed, poor schooling .

James 2; 1 is the commandment that reveals the exclusive faith that comes from hearing is of Christ's work of faith many say faith is not a work in that way .

 

[complete]

Well said , well writen. I am more of the disjointed, poor schooling .

James 2; 1 is the commandment that reveals the exclusive faith that comes from hearing is of Christ's work of faith many say faith is not a work in that way .

'My brethren,
have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Lord of glory,
with respect of persons.'
(Jas 2:1)

Hello thee, @Garee,

No, I agree that faith is not a work, not on our part any way.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

'My brethren,
have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Lord of glory,
with respect of persons.'
(Jas 2:1)

Hello thee, @Garee,

No, I agree that faith is not a work, not on our part any way.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, on His part. His labor of love (work of faith) as a believer we have little . . non of our own yoked with him yes. . He must increase.


2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[KingJ]

There is much to look at I would offer.

A little of the faith coming from God’s labor of love that works in us to both will and empower us to do his good will is all that is accredited to us. Its all that is needed to hear what the Spirit says to the churches or denominations.as he gives us ears to hear his faithful understandings

Unbelievers are reckoned at having “no faith” coming from above. None (zero) not little.

He alone is the one source of faith or understanding of the things not seen. His work in us must increase as we decrease .reasoning or the end of faith is not of us . He hides the understanding from the unbeliever (faithless) in parables So that in seeing with their eyes they see not and in hearing they hear not his interpretation Again they have no faith we have little.

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

He promised those who come under the hearing of His faith that he will not forget the good works we offer towards his name being yoked with him our burden is lighter . That work of Him accompanies our salvation .Not the product of our salvation .

Hebrew 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Looking again at his grace and mercy working as one .The Bible informs us that God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires and proclaims it is he that makes our hearts soft with the doctrines of God that fall like rain from heaven .You could say the water of the word , the gospel .

We are also informed that he magnifies his word as it is written above all his name or attributes and that he is subject to His own laws .This gives us comfort knowing he changes not. .

Psalm 138 King James Version (KJV) I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

James 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In that way faith is a work of God that he works in us to both will and empower us to eat the meat or strengthen us to finsish the good pleasure of His will

Again the law applies to our God. He does not have mercy on one as a free gift as a work of His faith and condemn another to suffer past the grave. It’s that kind of ideology that opened the way of purgatory wonderment with no end of faith in view. It does despite to the fullness of God’s grace. He does not give a remnant and say you finish it

Believers receive the end of their new born again faith from the beginning.

Death as to the letter of the law as in dying the end will come as will the suffering of hell . When the book of law is tossed in the eternal fire never to rise… hell which accompanies will also never rise again and condemn through corruption ( dying)another entire creation.

The death of death itself .. and its living suffering hell.

Garee, you quote my post but I don't see effort on your part to deal with any point raised.

You are just repeating lines that Complete has posted.

No thought is given by either of you to the queries raised and as to how scripture (supporting your annihilationist view) paints God as good when resolving them.

As such you both come across as rigid in your beliefs and not able to deal with valid arguments against it.

Annihilationism is a terribly sick belief, a cherry picked construct of scripture.

 

[Garee]

Garee, you quote my post but I don't see effort on your part to deal with any point raised.

You are just repeating lines that Complete has posted.

No thought is given by either of you to the queries raised and as to how scripture (supporting your annihilationist view) paints God as good when resolving them.

As such you both come across as rigid in your beliefs and not able to deal with valid arguments against it.

Annihilationism is a terribly sick belief, a cherry picked construct of scripture.

Sorry must of missed it.

Not a salvation issue. More of how can we hear the understanding of another??

I think one way that the end is the end for this corrupted creation under the Sun. Now we can do the god works God requires not when we no longer have any member of anything under the Son, Death of the body of death. (corrutped)

It supports that our merciful God that he magnifies the word of God as it is written above all his power and God is subject to it his own self .A great gift to us knowing He changes not. Those who do die never to rise to new promised spirit life their corrupted flesh and blood returns to the dust or clay and the temporal spirit given under the letter of the law death (thou shall not or you will die) it return to the father of all spirit life .

James 2:12-13 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Mercy cannot serve two masters . either mercy rejoices with judgmet (retribution )or against it salvation.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The first death, the death of our bodies of death. The second death the death of death itself. The letter of the law.it as it is writen will never rise up and condemn through dying another whole creation . Death as to the letter of the law and the suffering of dying called hell the execution of the same law

The idea that our spirit never dies is the foundation or the purgatory doctrines as oral traditions of men . The same kind of with the Pope Formosa trial judging dead venerated bones . Dead is dead in the end of the matter. Many believers are dead asleep waiting for the wakeup call . . Rise.. Receive the promise.

God is not merciless. . Having mercy on one and punishing another forever and ever without end (purgatory) .

 

[KingJ]

Sorry must of missed it.

Not a salvation issue. More of how can we hear the understanding of another??

I think one way that the end is the end for this corrupted creation under the Sun. Now we can do the god works God requires not when we no longer have any member of anything under the Son, Death of the body of death. (corrutped)

It supports that our merciful God that he magnifies the word of God as it is written above all his power and God is subject to it his own self .A great gift to us knowing He changes not. Those who do die never to rise to new promised spirit life their corrupted flesh and blood returns to the dust or clay and the temporal spirit given under the letter of the law death (thou shall not or you will die) it return to the father of all spirit life .

James 2:12-13 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Mercy cannot serve two masters . either mercy rejoices with judgmet (retribution )or against it salvation.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The first death, the death of our bodies of death. The second death the death of death itself. The letter of the law.it as it is writen will never rise up and condemn through dying another whole creation . Death as to the letter of the law and the suffering of dying called hell the execution of the same law

The idea that our spirit never dies is the foundation or the purgatory doctrines as oral traditions of men . The same kind of with the Pope Formosa trial judging dead venerated bones . Dead is dead in the end of the matter. Many believers are dead asleep waiting for the wakeup call . . Rise.. Receive the promise.

God is not merciless. . Having mercy on one and punishing another forever and ever without end (purgatory) .

Garee I feel like you are trolling me. I gave you my post, it has scriptural and rational points raised against annihilation. Is it too much to ask for a reply to that post?

You seem to have a terrible idea of God. ''He is God, He can do what He wants'''....at ''least''' we know He does not change.

He tells us to love our enemy Matt 5:44 and rebukes us if we do not judge righteously 1 Cor 6:1-9. He says He is a just judge who will reward all according to what they did Rom 2:6. Add all this to the fact that He is not a hypocrite who tells us one thing whilst He does another and the fact that as you mentioned ''He does not change'' and you will not arrive at annihilationism.

 

[Garee]

Garee I feel like you are trolling me. I gave you my post, it has scriptural and rational points raised against annihilation. Is it too much to ask for a reply to that post?

You seem to have a terrible idea of God. ''He is God, He can do what He wants'''....at ''least''' we know He does not change.

He tells us to love our enemy Matt 5:44 and rebukes us if we do not judge righteously 1 Cor 6:1-9. He says He is a just judge who will reward all according to what they did Rom 2:6. Add all this to the fact that He is not a hypocrite who tells us one thing whilst He does another and the fact that as you mentioned ''He does not change'' and you will not arrive at annihilationism.

Sorry not a troll there simply is no foundation doctrine that would make God into a "Merciless God" .

I did hold to the idea at one time of men suffering forever and ever and calling that mercy . Hell is the living suffering by which we can cry out for help form our Holy Father that we expernce it in these bodies of death. Both Jonas and Jesus are used to show they suffered a living hel while breathing air enabling them to receive strength to finish the work yoked wih the Spirit of truth .

The punishemnt a living hell given to Cain which he could not bear .

Abel yoked with Christ was strengthed enabling Abel to bear it with the Born again spirit that worked in Abel to both will and perform the good pleasure of his God. . our God.

And God the Spirit of Truth cannot do what he wants. He is subject to the same law regarding mercy as it applies to the "spirit of judgment" as us..He does not speak out of both sides .. one law for us another for him.

The perfect or complete law of liberty. Two laws working as one perfect law. The letter of the law the Bible “death” and the law of faith “life”. Apart from the other. . is death never to rise to new life. .

He magnifies His word as it is written above all his attributes or power.

James 2: 12-13 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

God does gracefully show mercy to those who do not receive saving grace.

Mercy rejoices against ongoing. . . never ending . . . .judgment. Suffering in purgatory forever rejoices with judgment not against. (my vengence will get even suffer without end ) That is not the kind of God or mercy and grace. Those who do not receive a new born again spirit by grace come to the end (.annihilationism) the work of sufering the pangs of hell in a body of death are over.

God does not show mercy to one and not the other . He is not merciless in so much where he would breath the breath of new eternal spirit life in one and the other they must suffer in purgatory for ever and ever. When a person takes their last breath if they have not received mercy and grace they will not raise on the last day

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

On the last day the “death of death” (the letter of the law) along with its suffering called “hell” a living breathing suffering they will be cast in the judgment fire never to rise up and condemn another entire creation through corruption. . suffering unto death and dying. No breath of life.

Bones the first death will not be tossed in the fire as if double jepordy. Again death as to the letter of the law and its sufering hell.

Revelation 20:14 And death and (or with) hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[KingJ]

there simply is no foundation doctrine that would make God into a "Merciless God" .

Agreed, this is why you should not believe in annihilation.

Lets say there was a thief who stole candy from the candy store and rejected faith in Jesus. Is it just and merciful for God to ''outright annihilate'' him?

If there are righteous barely saved 1 Pet 4:18, there are unrighteous barely not saved. Do you believe all in heaven get equal rewards, get to sit right next to the throne of Jesus?

I did hold to the idea at one time of men suffering forever and ever and calling that mercy .

I assume you were miss-taught about hell.

There are very few scriptures that speak to what actual suffering there will be. It is a lot like earth was explained to Adam. ''Sweat and toil the soil, pain in child birth, no more friendly lions''. But, yet earth contains many pleasantries. Why does scripture not speak specifically to them? I believe it is because they should be a ''given'' to those who know God.

God mentions fire, we know the rich man was on fire in Hades before judgement day. So fire is therefore a natural consequence of sin and not related to punishment from God. Darkness is a metaphor for a place of evil according to John 3:19. People weep and gnash their teeth because of isolation according to Luke 13:28. Not because of torture from fire.

So, hell is ironically evidence of God's mercy on the wicked and evidence of God being ''good'' in that He truly honors free will. It is the reality of their sin and isolation that makes hell unpleasant. I am sure there will be many pleasantries though. God is good and all He creates is good. All wickedness and appearance of evil from God is traced to sin by mankind and fallen angels.

 

[KingJ]

Both Jonas and Jesus are used to show they suffered a living hel while breathing air enabling them to receive strength to finish the work yoked wih the Spirit of truth .

The punishemnt a living hell given to Cain which he could not bear .

This theory you are pushing seems non-sensical.

If life on earth was a hell of sort, how is God just and merciful in that many suffer terribly and some not at all?

Abel yoked with Christ was strengthed enabling Abel to bear it with the Born again spirit that worked in Abel to both will and perform the good pleasure of his God. . our God.

Please clarify what you mean when you say ''in Abel to both will''. Are you suggesting God was partial to Abel and effected His will? If so, please explain how partiality is evidence of a just, good and merciful God.

I see you say this '' God does not show mercy to one and not the other '' later in your post. Are you going to retract that above statement?

 

[KingJ]

James 2: 12-13 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

God does gracefully show mercy to those who do not receive saving grace.

Garee, how can you believe or say that if you believe in annihilationism?

If I came to your daughter and said ''marry me or I will kill you''. That is mercy and grace?

Mercy rejoices against ongoing. . . never ending . . . .judgment. Suffering in purgatory forever rejoices with judgment not against. (my vengence will get even suffer without end ) That is not the kind of God or mercy and grace. Those who do not receive a new born again spirit by grace come to the end (.annihilationism) the work of sufering the pangs of hell in a body of death are over.

I don't believe you are trying very hard to put yourself in the shoes of that individual that is going to be destroyed.

Let's assume for a second your daughter did not quite make the cut. Will you be ok with your God, the God you serve, the God who told you He is just and righteous in all His ways......outright killing your daughter?

Please can you take a stab at the points raised in this post (Post # 57) The fires of hell.

 

[Garee]

You need to try present a stronger defense. On face value, annihilation seems truthful. Wages of sin is death and we all know that accepting Jesus gives us forgiveness from sin. Add that to all scripture where God destroys the wicked and yes, we can be forgiven for believing God will annihilate.

Jesus accepting us according to his great mercy and grace. Not of our own selfves in any way shape or form . We are his masterpice. His creation .

Yes the wage of sin is death (never to rise to new spirit life). Those who have been freely given a new born again spirit they will raise on the “last day” .The same day the letter of the law "death" along with its suffering of "hell" is tossed into the fiery judgment. The death of death itself. The second and final .

The letter of the law it will not rise in the new creation and again condemn another whole creation to death There is no reason to put ones trust in purgatory forever and ever . God is a God of mercy and is subject to His own law. Mercy that provided the work of grace triumphs over purgatory. (the idea of life after the sentence of death (no breath of life) )

James seems to tie it together. Not all will be judge are judged by the law of mercy with grace . The Spirit of Christ does not have grace and mercy on one and cause the other to suffer in some purgatory forever . That would not be called mercy. Mercy would mean an end to suffering . . dead never to rise. That mercy.

James2:12;13 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Mercy does not rejoice with judgemnt but again against sufering forever and ever..

1. Babies and children died during the flood. 2. Do you believe that all but Noah and his family were 10/10 wicked? 3. Do you believe Noah and his family had no sin? 4. How is the death penalty ''rewarding according to what they did'' Rom 2:6?

All have sinned and fall short of the glory to include Noah .Noah was used as a example of not being unevenly yoked with daughters of men (the un-redeemed) , at that time period the spiritual seed Christ was still being developed in a genealogy .It ended when the Son of man was born

As such, events of God's annihilation of tribes on the earth is seen more as Him bringing change. We know from day 1 when He put the devil on earth with Adam and Eve that He has wanted a ''balance'' of good and evil. Cities like Sodom were lob-sided toward what is evil. That is why He dealt with them.

The devil brought unbalance God word the standard provided the balance

What is justice for a sinner? Please read 1 Cor 6:1-9 a couple of times. Note how Paul urges us to judge better then the unsaved. Note how Paul says we will judge the angels. Then read 1 Cor 5. Note how Paul ''singles'' out a person guilty of a specific sin, ''incest''. There were many other sinners in the church. Yet


That judgment is one that evaluates not a judgment that comes to an end . Only God can see into a every person’s heart and move them according to the good pleasure of His will .

We are to call no one a fool (no God in the hearts) as to the end of the matter. The messengers called angels are the Sons of God they as the elect try the sprits to see if they are of men inspired from earth or God inspired from heaven. Many went out from us because they were not od those v born again to begin with. Paul warns us before the close of the law of God the scriptures (Revealtion) .Some will say here is Christ or he is there. He commands us to believe not making it impossible to deceive those who do evaluate by trying the spirits .What some call judging angels evaluating whether they are true prophet sent as aspotles or false .

1 Corinthians 6:1 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

Its one of the reasons when we do meet a stranger we should be aware we could be entertaining a believer as a messenger of God, that some call angel . We might have a word of encourage or we receive it from them. All of the spiritual gifts are two fold in that way. . . working in two or three .No self-edifying.

Hebrews 13:1-3 King James Version (KJV) Let brotherly love continue. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

In that way it is certainly not self entertaining . The unholy 3 . . .me, myself and I. LOL

If the unsaved know to sentence a murderer to a longer prison sentence then a thief, how much more us, how much more a just God? If the unsaved debate all year long about lethal injection for the most grievous of sinners, how much more a good person, how much more God?

The sentence to a murder is more than one is able to bear without Christ .Cain when offered the gospel murdered his brother Abel .the first recorded martyr and apostle who died serving Christ. Abel was given rest in in his increased labor making the lord lighter and it gave Abel a future hope after death. His blood cries out from the corrupted dust(heart of the corrupted earth) longing to be clothed with the eternal just as any saint ..

Cain the atheist (fool ) buried Abel under in the corn field setting up the Pagan foundation of unbelief. No faith. . . . . out of sight. . . out of mind. No faith that exclusively comes from hearing God as two walking together. .

Cain desired to die rather than spend his life under the burden he could not bear . . that only in Christ could one bear. The Holy Spirit placed the mark of his Word or promise (666) Marking his word what it says does come to pass .If any try and choose the instant death penalty they themselves would be considered a murderer under the power of Satan a murder from that beginning the same spirit of murder that works in all the serial killer today .The opposing spirit of truth.

it has someone changed b my veiw point a the death sentnce .Slow, lifer, or shocking instant


Geneisis 4:13:15 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Cain suffered the living pangs of hell all the days of his life.