The good shepherd (parable analysis)

[Beetow]

Who created Man, How do you see the "us", are they not Three Divine Persons, in
One God?

Within the context of the first chapter of Genesis, God is revealed as 1) Himself, 2)
as His spirit, and 3) as His voice.

All three of those aspects of God's existence took part in creating human life; and
seeing as how they are spoken of as "us" and as "our" then I think it's safe to regard
those three aspects as persons, i.e. individuals.
_

 

[Beetow]

I think most Jews would consent that God himself is a sentient being, and that
God's spirit is a sentient being, but they would probably have trouble consenting
that God's voice is a sentient being.

However; Jews were believing in God's voice long before Christianity ever came
along,

According to the Targums, which were at one time accepted as sacred Jewish
beliefs, God's voice is a sentient being; actually God himself. So then, His speech
is to be worshipped, and served, and obeyed, and spoken to as the Ultimate
Sovereign.

The Targums taught that God's voice reigns supreme upon The Almighty's throne.

T. Deut 4:7 . . For what people so great, to whom the Lord is so high in the Name
of the Word of the Lord? But the custom of (other) nations is to carry their gods
upon their shoulders, that they may seem to be nigh them; but they cannot hear
with their ears, (be they nigh or) be they afar off; but the Word of the Lord sits
upon His throne high and lifted up, and hears our prayer what time we pray before
Him and make our petitions. (Targum Jonathan)

According to the Targums, Jacob, an important progenitor of the people of Israel,
worshipped God's voice as his own divine sovereign.

T. Gen 28:20-21 . . And Jacob vowed a vow, saying: If the Word of Jehovah will be
my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat,
and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then
shall the Word of Jehovah be my God. (Targum Onkelos)
_

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brethren,
Here is a debate between an Apologist and an individual who believes in Oneness.
It's a little over 4 hrs., long but is worth the listen. There's much to digest in listening to it. Paused a lot to look up Scripture so I'd be on the same page as the participants. Took me a couple of days to get through it all. However, if time is an issue, then I would suggest you go to the Q&A between the speakers and not the one where online viewers are asking questions, which is towards the 2 hr. 16 min. mark. which still leaves almost 2 hrs. of information to go through. It might even touch upon some of the questions both sides here might have concerning their own position as it pertains to the Godhead.

I hope however, that this communication on the subject is done in love because this subject has gotten some banned from Talk Jesus. Until I am offered further guidance I'll allow for this discussion to continue, because it is good that one delve into Scripture to show oneself approved, but because Talk Jesus is what one would say is Trinitarian according to the site's Statement of Faith; I truly suggest care on how accusatory words that convinces/moves no one is used. Put forth your positions with Scripture, and I hope the realization that one cannot answer a particular positions question doesn't mean that the position held by one has lost validity in the discussion. I know of people that have read the entirety of the Bible, and other books as well, who will tell you that they still don't know it all.

I always keep this particular Scripture in mind when the Godhead is being discussed. It helps me put things into perspective, and I hope is received with understanding.

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3 NASB95

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Beetow]

• Gen 11:2-8 . . And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they
found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to
another: Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for
stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said: Go to, let us build us a city
and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest
we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

. . . And The Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of
men builded. And The Lord said: Behold, the people is one, and they have all one
language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them,
which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their
language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So The Lord
scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off
to build the city.

The Lord speaks of Himself by the plural pronoun "us" in that passage.

Up to this point, Genesis has revealed The Lord in only three aspects as Himself, His
spirit, and His voice. Since that's the case; then I'm confident there's sufficient
reason to believe that those three aspects of God are sentient beings, i.e. persons.

NOTE: God's voice is well-known to most Christians as the Word (John 1:1-3)
translated from the Greek noun logos (log'-os) which basically refers to speech
rather than thoughts. For example Gen 1:3 where "God said" viz: God spoke.
_

 

[God's Truth]

Dear Brethren,
Here is a debate between an Apologist and an individual who believes in Oneness.
It's a little over 4 hrs., long but is worth the listen. There's much to digest in listening to it. Paused a lot to look up Scripture so I'd be on the same page as the participants. Took me a couple of days to get through it all. However, if time is an issue, then I would suggest you go to the Q&A between the speakers and not the one where online viewers are asking questions, which is towards the 2 hr. 16 min. mark. which still leaves almost 2 hrs. of information to go through. It might even touch upon some of the questions both sides here might have concerning their own position as it pertains to the Godhead.

I hope however, that this communication on the subject is done in love because this subject has gotten some banned from Talk Jesus. Until I am offered further guidance I'll allow for this discussion to continue, because it is good that one delve into Scripture to show oneself approved, but because Talk Jesus is what one would say is Trinitarian according to the site's Statement of Faith; I truly suggest care on how accusatory words that convinces/moves no one is used. Put forth your positions with Scripture, and I hope the realization that one cannot answer a particular positions question doesn't mean that the position held by one has lost validity in the discussion. I know of people that have read the entirety of the Bible, and other books as well, who will tell you that they still don't know it all.

I always keep this particular Scripture in mind when the Godhead is being discussed. It helps me put things into perspective, and I hope is received with understanding.

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3 NASB95

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Too bad Matt Slick won't come here to your site to debate the trinity doctrine. I've offered to debate him about the trinity on his site, but he can't answer questions.
If a person can't answer questions to their beliefs, then they shouldn't teach those beliefs.
Think about it: how can a person keep saying their belief is true but the other person's belief is false, if you can't give an answer?
Jesus says be ready to give an answer.

 

[God's Truth]

• Gen 11:2-8 . . And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they
found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to
another: Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for
stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said: Go to, let us build us a city
and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest
we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

. . . And The Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of
men builded. And The Lord said: Behold, the people is one, and they have all one
language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them,
which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their
language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So The Lord
scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off
to build the city.

The Lord speaks of Himself by the plural pronoun "us" in that passage.

Up to this point, Genesis has revealed The Lord in only three aspects as Himself, His
spirit, and His voice. Since that's the case; then I'm confident there's sufficient
reason to believe that those three aspects of God are sentient beings, i.e. persons.

NOTE: God's voice is well-known to most Christians as the Word (John 1:1-3)
translated from the Greek noun logos (log'-os) which basically refers to speech
rather than thoughts. For example Gen 1:3 where "God said" viz: God spoke.
_

There are three, and the three existed in heaven before anything was made.
The three are the same one.
God the Father is a Spirit and as such is invisible, and, before He made anything, He made himself a body, and this body is the not yet known Jesus, the Word, later to come as a son in the flesh. Jesus is the First and the Last---AND---that is who God the Father is called in the Old Testament---and it is who Jesus is called in the New Testament. They are the same One.
Modalism is false because they say the three don't exist simultaneously. Of course they exist simultaneously.

 

[Daniel L.]

Jesus says be ready to give an answer.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

-Who is Praying? Who is He praying to?

-Does Jesus have free will?

 

[God's Truth]

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

-Who is Praying? Who is He praying to?

Jesus is praying to his Father in heaven.

-Does Jesus have free will?

Jesus does have free will.

 

[God's Truth]

Be a Catholic, go against many of their doctrines, be called a Reformer and a Protestant and have many people follow you and go after your name. Who am I? Martin Luther.

Be a Catholic now, give it up in search for God's Truth, go against the Catholic's trinity doctrine, be called a heretic and condemned, by those Protestants.

Luther was a Catholic and went against many of the Catholic doctrines, but he did not go far enough, for he kept their trinity doctrine and the false infant baptism doctrine.

He also did something that was wrong, he added a false doctrine of his own, and that doctrine says God saves us before we believe and obey and that we can't believe and obey without Him saving us first. That is not scriptural.

I would like to be free to speak my beliefs---just as Luther himself did.

However, Luther wasn't put to death for it or annihilated.

The Protestants here chose Luther to follow, but don't like anyone to protest their beliefs, even though their father was a protester.

Isn't it ironic?

 

[Daniel L.]

Jesus is praying to his Father in heaven.

Since you agree Jesus has free-will, and you stated Jesus prayed to the Father, you believe in at least Two Persons. The One that prays, and the One that hears the prayer. They must be distinct. Same thing with the Two Wills, the Will of the Son, and the Will of the Father. Which means Jesus exists as His Own Person, Distinct from the Person of the Father, Jesus has His Own Will and His Own Prayer, which He presented to His Father, a distinct Person, Who in turn, hears the prayer of His Son. An interaction that requires Two Persons, as in a dialogue.

-So from this verse alone, you, not me, but you have demonstrated the existence of Two Persons and Two Wills, and if you believe Jesus is God, you have Two Divine Persons, One God because the LORD your God is One, but Two Divine Persons nonetheless. The Son and the Father, the Speaker and the Hearer. Two Distinct Divine Persons.

 

[God's Truth]

Since you agree Jesus has free-will, and you stated Jesus prayed to the Father, you believe in at least Two Persons.

You are hanging your beliefs on God being three DISTINCT and DIFFERENT "Persons", so I will use the word "Person" too, just to explain the truth to you.

A "person" has ONE BODY, ONE MIND, and ONE SPIRIT.

Do you agree with that?

Please answer that question.

The One that prays, and the One that hears the prayer. They must be distinct.

The word 'distinct' can confusion, but could be acceptable in my mind, as long as you aren't using it to say they are different.

The trinity doctrine says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT, AND, DIFFERENT.

Again, distinct might be acceptable, but no way is different acceptable.

They are exactly the same and not different.

Whatever the Father says, Jesus says.
Whatever the Father does, Jesus does.

One day when you see Jesus, you can say to yourself, "I am seeing the Father."

Same thing with the Two Wills, the Will of the Son, and the Will of the Father.

When Jesus says not my will but your will Father...
that was when Jesus was going to suffer and die.

The natural and NORMAL human will of the flesh is to avoid suffering, and to postpone dying.

Jesus is God come in the flesh and as a human.
The will of a human in the flesh is to not want pain and death, but Jesus says NOT MY WILL YOUR WILL FATHER.
Jesus did NOT come to earth to do the will of a man, but only the will of God the Father.

Jesus didn't come to do the NATURAL NORMAL will of man, he didn't find a girlfriend, get married, he didn't have kids, he didn't even have a home.

Jesus is God come to do the will of God the Father.

-So from this verse alone, you, not me, but you have demonstrated the existence of Two Persons and Two Wills, and if you believe Jesus is God, you have Two Divine Persons, One God

God the Father is God, not called a Person.
The word 'Person' when referring to God just doesn't sit right with me.
Can you give a scripture that calls God a Person?
I think of a person as being a human.
Angels are spirits and are called 'angels', not 'people'.
God is a Spirit and not called an angel, because He is God.

God is a singular word and not plural, as the trinity doctrine claims and makes it a plural word.
There is only one divine God, not three different divine persons making a God.

In addition, you keep saying two, when we are to be talking about the THREE.

because the LORD your God is One, but Two Divine Persons nonetheless. The Son and the Father, the Speaker and the Hearer. Two Distinct Divine Persons.

 

[Daniel L.]

In addition, you keep saying two, when we are to be talking about the THREE.

When you understand Jesus and the Father are Two Persons, then we'll talk about the Third. When you said Jesus prayed to the Father, you implied Two Persons, Jesus and the Father. Two Subjects if you will. The Son prayed to the Father, not the Father prayed to Himself. There are Two Consciences, the One that prays, and the One that hears the prayer.

It's as simple as that, either you have Two Persons, or you have the Father praying to Himself, Sending Himself in His Own Name, in Himself, One with Himself, not doing His Will, but His Will, and so on, all nonsensical statements. You also can't make critical confessions, such as: The Son is the Son of God, because with only One Person, you can only say: the Father is the Son of God, The Father is the Son of Himself, another flaw. And yet another confession is: The Son has come in the flesh, but if you only believe in One Person, then you can only say: The Father has come in the flesh, which is not the confession you need to make.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[God's Truth]

When you understand Jesus and the Father are Two Persons, then we'll talk about the Third.

The third is what will help you understand that they are the same.

When you said Jesus prayed to the Father, you implied Two Persons, Jesus and the Father. Two Subjects if you will. The Son prayed to the Father, not the Father prayed to Himself. There are Two Consciences, the One that prays, and the One that hears the prayer.

God came in three.
You claim they are different, but they are not.
There is only one body, one Spirit, one God.
There are not three different persons with three different Spirits. as the trinity doctrine teaches.

 

[Daniel L.]

There are not three different persons

You believe The Father prayed to Himself, and Sent Himself in His Own Name. Is the Father the Son of the Father?

 

[God's Truth]

You believe The Father prayed to Himself, and Sent Himself in His Own Name. Is the Father the Son of the Father?

The Father lives in unapproachable light, He also came as a son in the flesh. As a son he prayed to the Father in heaven.

 

[God's Truth]

@daniel L

Let's see if you can answer these questions:


Who gives life, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Who is the Truth, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

Who raised Jesus from the dead, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Who lives in the saved, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Is the new law the law of Christ or the law of the Spirit?

Who sends the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Who pours out the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Do we live in the Holy Spirit, or do we live in Jesus?

Do we live through Jesus or through the Holy Spirit?

Does Jesus circumcision or hearts, or does the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts?

Does Jesus intercede for us, or does the Holy Spirit?

Who forgives sins, the Father or Jesus?

Who sanctifies us, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Are we baptized in Christ, or are we baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Was everything made through God the Father, or through Jesus.

Is God the Father the Savior, or is Jesus?

If the Father the Redeemer, or Jesus?

Is the Father the Rock, or is Jesus?

Is the Father the Shepherd, or is Jesus the Shepherd?

Is the Father the Holy One, or is Jesus?

Are they the Father's commands, or are they Jesus' commands?

Does the Father draw us, or does Jesus draw us?

Will the Father raise the dead, or does Jesus raise the dead?

Is the Father light, or is Jesus light?

Ask anything in the Father's name, or anything in Jesus’ name he will do it?

Do we call on the Father, or do we call on Jesus?

Does the Father search minds and hearts, or does Jesus search minds and hearts?

Did the Father create us with His hands, or did Jesus create us with his hands?

Are we in the Father's hands, or are we in Jesus' hands?

Are we to be transformed into the image of God, or in the image of Jesus, or in the image of the Spirit?

 

[Daniel L.]

As a son he prayed to the Father in heaven.

Right, you mean the Father prayed to Himself, "as a son" or not, It's the Father praying to Himself. Since you only allow for One Person to exist, you can only have the Father praying to Himself, "as a Son", as you say, but that doesn't make Him the Son, It only makes Him the Father, "as a Son".

And that is another confession you need to make, you need to confess Jesus came in the flesh, and not that the Father came in the Flesh "as a Son".

And yet another confession you need to make, is that Jesus is the Son of God, you don't need to confess the Father "as a son" is the Son of God.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

-As for your questions, you can't ask them and keep your theology at the same time, because it is Trinitarians who distinguish between Father Son and Holy Spirit, you only believe in One Person, so what you are asking is really, was it the Father or the Father, did the Father did this or was it the Father, is the Father this, or is it the Father. So, first you need to accept Three Divine Persons, and then you can ask questions about them as beeing distinct Persons.

Who sends the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Because I allow for the existence of Three Distinct and Divine Persons, I can explain this verse, as the Father is the One that Sends, in the Name of the Son, The Comforter.
Now because you only allow for the existence of One Person, you can only have the Father Sending Himself in His Own Name "as a Son" or whatever, this is the result of One Person theology.

 

[God's Truth]

Right, you mean the Father prayed to Himself, "as a son" or not, It's the Father praying to Himself. Since you only allow for One Person to exist, you can only have the Father praying to Himself, "as a Son", as you say, but that doesn't make Him the Son, It only makes Him the Father, "as a Son".

There are three and the three are the same one. There is only one God and He is the Father. When He came as a son He didn't pretend to. You need to make sure you don't twist what others say.

And that is another confession you need to make, you need to confess Jesus came in the flesh, and not that the Father came in the Flesh "as a Son".

You want to incessantly repeat that untruth. That shows a lot about you.

And yet another confession you need to make, is that Jesus is the Son of God, you don't need to confess the Father "as a son" is the Son of God.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

You don't think that is evil what you are doing, trying to say I am an antichrist and deceiver?
What you are doing by twisting my words and trying to use scripture against me is just evil.

-As for your questions, you can't ask them and keep your theology at the same time, because it is Trinitarians who distinguish between Father Son and Holy Spirit, you only believe in One Person, so what you are asking is really, was it the Father or the Father, did the Father did this or was it the Father, is the Father this, or is it the Father. So, first you need to accept Three Divine Persons, and then you can ask questions about them as beeing distinct Persons.

You are the one who can't answer the questions.

They are all scriptures.

Why can't you answer the scriptures?

Because I allow for the existence of Three Distinct and Divine Persons, I can explain this verse, as the Father is the One that Sends, in the Name of the Son, The Comforter.
Now because you only allow for the existence of One Person, you can only have the Father Sending Himself in His Own Name "as a Son" or whatever, this is the result of One Person theology.

What does the scriptures say?

Speak according to the scriptures.

WHO SENDS THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Does the Father, or does Jesus?

You are to be ready to answer.

 

[God's Truth]

@Daniel L. @GodB4Us

Come and see if you can answer these questions, since you both are teachers on this site.

Let's see if you can answer these questions:


Who gives life, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Who is the Truth, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

Who raised Jesus from the dead, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Who lives in the saved, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Is the new law the law of Christ or the law of the Spirit?

Who sends the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Who pours out the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Do we live in the Holy Spirit, or do we live in Jesus?

Do we live through Jesus or through the Holy Spirit?

Does Jesus circumcision or hearts, or does the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts?

Does Jesus intercede for us, or does the Holy Spirit?

Who forgives sins, the Father or Jesus?

Who sanctifies us, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Are we baptized in Christ, or are we baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Was everything made through God the Father, or through Jesus.

Is God the Father the Savior, or is Jesus?

If the Father the Redeemer, or Jesus?

Is the Father the Rock, or is Jesus?

Is the Father the Shepherd, or is Jesus the Shepherd?

Is the Father the Holy One, or is Jesus?

Are they the Father's commands, or are they Jesus' commands?

Does the Father draw us, or does Jesus draw us?

Will the Father raise the dead, or does Jesus raise the dead?

Is the Father light, or is Jesus light?

Ask anything in the Father's name, or anything in Jesus’ name he will do it?

Do we call on the Father, or do we call on Jesus?

Does the Father search minds and hearts, or does Jesus search minds and hearts?

Did the Father create us with His hands, or did Jesus create us with his hands?

Are we in the Father's hands, or are we in Jesus' hands?

Are we to be transformed into the image of God, or in the image of Jesus, or in the image of the Spirit?

 

[Daniel L.]

There are three

Three What? Three What? -There are Three Persons and you know it.

see if you can answer these questions

I answered it is the Father that sends the Holy Spirit, but do you realize you can't ask any of those questions, without assuming Three Persons?

There is only one God and He is the Father. When He came as a son He didn't pretend to.

This is not the confession you need to make, you need to confess Jesus, the Son of God, came in the flesh. And not that The Father came in the flesh "as a Son". That is not the confession. "As a son", whatever that means, doesn't make Him the Son. Jesus is the Son of God, this is yet another confession you can't make, all you can say is that The Father "as a Son", is the Son. Because you only believe in One Person, you can't have interaction between Father and Son, only Father and Himself.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Malachi 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

-The Son honours the Father, not the Father "as a Son" honours Himself. And many more interactions between Father and Son that require Two Persons to be true statements. For example, The Son prayed to the Father, but you can only say The Father prayed to Himself "as a Son". You need to drop this "as a Son" thing, it won't help you, and it just shows you fail to confess Jesus is the Son of God, and rather say Father "as a Son" is the Son of Himself. Forsake it.