The good shepherd (parable analysis)

[God's Truth]

Here are the questions that @Daniel L. and @GodB4Us won't answer.
They are trinitarians and say that God is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are different, with different Spirits, and that they always exist together and together are called 'God'.

While my beliefs sound very similar, I believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and they are together called God. The part of their trinitarian beliefs that I cannot accept is that they say the three are different and have three different divine Spirits.
I have asked them for those scriptures that show there are three different divine Spirits, but they have not given them to me, and I show them from scriptures my beliefs, and the scriptures I give say there is ONE SPIRIT, and the scriptures I give say they are ONE (one even means 'the same), and, I give scriptures that say they are exactly the same, for what they say and do are the same, and even when we see Jesus we can say we see the Father.

So that is why I can't believe in the trinitarian doctrine anymore, for I believed that doctrine for most of my life, but am showing why I can't anymore. I am glad though that the trinitarian doctrine claims that Jesus is God, unlike some other denominations.

When you read these questions, do know that I have scriptures to back up every answer.

I also want you to notice from the questions that the scriptures SPECIFY by saying the "Father", or "Jesus", or the "Holy Spirit".
The scriptures also say "God" sometimes, but the point is, is that is does specify Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit.
That shows us that they are interchangeable. If they are interchangeable, then they are the same one.


Who gives life, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Who is the Truth, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

Who raised Jesus from the dead, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Who lives in the saved, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Is the new law the law of Christ or the law of the Spirit?

Who sends the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Who pours out the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Do we live in the Holy Spirit, or do we live in Jesus?

Do we live through Jesus or through the Holy Spirit?

Does Jesus circumcision or hearts, or does the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts?

Does Jesus intercede for us, or does the Holy Spirit?

Who forgives sins, the Father or Jesus?

Who sanctifies us, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Are we baptized in Christ, or are we baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Was everything made through God the Father, or through Jesus.

Is God the Father the Savior, or is Jesus?

If the Father the Redeemer, or Jesus?

Is the Father the Rock, or is Jesus?

Is the Father the Shepherd, or is Jesus the Shepherd?

Is the Father the Holy One, or is Jesus?

Are they the Father's commands, or are they Jesus' commands?

Does the Father draw us, or does Jesus draw us?

Will the Father raise the dead, or does Jesus raise the dead?

Is the Father light, or is Jesus light?

Ask anything in the Father's name, or anything in Jesus’ name he will do it?

Do we call on the Father, or do we call on Jesus?

Does the Father search minds and hearts, or does Jesus search minds and hearts?

Did the Father create us with His hands, or did Jesus create us with his hands?

Are we in the Father's hands, or are we in Jesus' hands?

Are we to be transformed into the image of God, or in the image of Jesus, or in the image of the Spirit?

 

[GodB4Us]

God is a Spirit,

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sorry, brother. A lot of believers take that verse out of context for the meaning of that message, so you are not the first.

The Samaritan woman stated that her people worshipped God in the mountains while she pointed out the Jews worshipped God in Jerusalem, mainly the Temple. Jesus was declaring that the time will come and now is when those who come to worship God the Father shall do so "anywhere" in spirit & in truth, thus God is a Spirit is referring to His Omnipresence as not confined to a specific place of worship; not inferring that God is only Spirit.

and lives in unapproachable light.

1 Timothy 6:14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which God will bring about in His own time — He who is blessed and the only Sovereign One, the King of kings and Lord of lords. 16 He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.…

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. KJV

Question; do you read this as referring to Jesus Christ as He is the King of kings that is to appear?

And are you referring the light that Jesus Christ is currently dwelling in now as Heaven that no man can approach or has seen yet or are you referring to Jesus dwelling with the Father that no man can approach or seen yet or both?

How are you applying that scripture to mean exactly?

Before God made anything, He made Himself a body, and this is Jesus not yet known as Jesus.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Seeing how the Word of God made a request for "us" to make man in our image and after our likeness, even " if " God made Himself a body known as the Word of God to perform all the acts of creation, and then the Word of God came as the incarnated Son of Man, then at the time of the request for the creation of man in Genesis 1:26 , the Father also had a body to create man after our image and after our likeness. So there is no if because that is false. The Word of God was not created. He is the firstborn of all creation to signify that He is the Creator.

Now for our reference of Colossians 1:15 Is the Son invisible? No. But He is the image of the invisible God and so He must also be invisible. Not quite. Invisible can mean not presently seen at the moment. Here is another verse where Jesus Christ is invisible.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So invisible means "not presently seen} and certainly not inferring that God the Father does not have a body since the Son has a body for how and why man was created in "our image" and after "our likeness".

After God made Himself a body, which is Jesus not yet known as Jesus, He then created everything through this body.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Why would the Word of God make a request to make man in our image and after our likeness then? Who was He talking to since no one else can counsel Him being God?

Isiaah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? 13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

When Jesus came to earth, he lowered himself and gave up that body in heaven for a flesh body.
When Jesus died and rose again and ascended to heaven, he received back that immortal body.
He is the First and the Last.

Now if you say that God created Jesus only at the time of His incarnation, as if only the Spirit of the Lord created everything, then you will have a problem with John 1:1-14. As it is, this thread proves with scripture that Jesus was the God men had seen in the O.T. Jesus The God That Men Had Seen In The O.T.

Jews tried to explain Genesis 1:26 away that God was conferring with angels and another explanation was God was conferring with the elements of creation, but Genesis 1:27 testify that God alone did it in creating man in His image.

So the Word of God conferred with God the Father and when God the Father agreed, along with the Spirit in compliance to the Father's will, the Word of God created man in His image.

God the Father in the Old Testament is called the First and the Last, and that is Jesus name in the New Testament.
They are the same one, just revealed to us in three.
That Spirit in Jesus is the Spirit of God, also called the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Actually, it was God the Son in the Old Testament for why it is Jesus Christ saying that in Revelation 1:17-18 and not just Revelation 22:12.

For God to be true to His words about how 2 or 3 witnesses are required to establish a testimony and to be able to judge any one, ( Deuteronomy 17:6 & Deuteronomy 19:15 ) in being true ( John 8:17 ) as God the Father & His Spirit did this in testifying of His Son as God the Redeemer at His water baptism in Matthew 3:15-17 to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17 and that means God cannot be a One Person God, but a Three Witnesses within the One Godhead.

Remember God said this in a proverb;

Proverbs 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

Different lips, different mouths, different person bearing testimony & praise.

So can Jesus be the Father when the Father testified of His Son?

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Jesus said no.

 

[Daniel L.]

They are the same one, just revealed to us in three.

Three What?

God reveals Himself to us as a Father, as a Son, and as the Holy Spirit.

Right, welcome to the Trinity. Three Persons, you realize that if you only believe in One Person, you can only say, God reveals Himself as Father, Father "as a Son" and Father "as the Holy Spirit". So if you want to say Father, Son and Holy Spirit, first you have to accept the Trinity, because such a statement implyies Three Distinct Divine Persons.

I believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit

You are a Trinitarian, then. Because in order to say this, you are implying Three Distinct Divine Persons, Three Names. If you were to believe in One Person, you could only state that you believe in Father, Father "as a Son" and Father "as the" Holy Spirit.

the scriptures SPECIFY by saying the "Father", or "Jesus", or the "Holy Spirit".

Yes, the Scriptures teach Three Divine Persons, Distinct from One Another. That is how they can interact between Each Other. So, all your questions where at least Two Persons are Named, all assume trinitarian theology, they assume Two or Three Persons, Distinct from One Another, interacting with Each Other. So, basically, all of your questions prove the Trinity is True, and that you don't really believe in One Person only, because if you did, then the answer to all your questions would be Father, since He is the Only Person that exists, right? -But because there are Three, and you know it, you ask questions about Three Distinct Persons.

 

[God's Truth]

@Daniel L. and @GodB4Us

Think about the nowadays Jews, they really go against people who call Jesus 'God'.

When they hear that God had His Son die as a sacrifice, they say that is pagan and that God says He never thought of such a thing.

These are some of the scriptures they tried to use against my saying Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins:


Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Psalm 106:38 They shed innocent blood--the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.


The Jews I have debated also say that God is One, and they use these scriptures to prove their beliefs:


Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Exodus 8:10 "Tomorrow," Pharaoh answered. "May it be as you say," Moses replied, "so that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 Otherwise, I will send all My plagues against you and your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.


The Jews go against the trinitarian doctrine and anyone who says Jesus is God.

Well Jesus is God, so how to keep the scriptures and yet say Jesus is God?

If there is only one God and He is the Father, then Jesus is that one God come in the flesh as a son.

One even means 'the same', so we can know they are the same one revealed to us by three ways.

 

[God's Truth]

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Exodus 8:10 "Tomorrow," Pharaoh answered. "May it be as you say," Moses replied, "so that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 Otherwise, I will send all My plagues against you and your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.


There is NONE like God the Father, no one beside Him.

The trinity doctrine makes someone LIKE the Father when they say Jesus is like the Father but not the Father.

See how making the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit different makes it go against what the Father says in the Old Testament?

Jesus is not just "like" the Father, he IS the Father come as a son in the flesh.

 

[GodB4Us]

Here are the questions that @Daniel L. and @GodB4Us won't answer.
They are trinitarians and say that God is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are different, with different Spirits, and that they always exist together and together are called 'God'.

While my beliefs sound very similar, I believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and they are together called God. The part of their trinitarian beliefs that I cannot accept is that they say the three are different and have three different divine Spirits.

If the Father's will be done and not the Son's per the Son's request for that cup to pass from Him, how can They be the Same Person?

I have asked them for those scriptures that show there are three different divine Spirits, but they have not given them to me, and I show them from scriptures my beliefs, and the scriptures I give say there is ONE SPIRIT, and the scriptures I give say they are ONE (one even means 'the same), and, I give scriptures that say they are exactly the same, for what they say and do are the same, and even when we see Jesus we can say we see the Father.

They have been presented but you apparently cannot see them as such.

So that is why I can't believe in the trinitarian doctrine anymore, for I believed that doctrine for most of my life, but am showing why I can't anymore. I am glad though that the trinitarian doctrine claims that Jesus is God, unlike some other denominations.

When you read these questions, do know that I have scriptures to back up every answer.

I also want you to notice from the questions that the scriptures SPECIFY by saying the "Father", or "Jesus", or the "Holy Spirit".
The scriptures also say "God" sometimes, but the point is, is that is does specify Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit.
That shows us that they are interchangeable. If they are interchangeable, then they are the same one.

No it does not because then that would make God a hypocrite and a liar for bearing false witness and judging any one when He forbid man to do so by one person as a witness.

Who gives life, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Jesus since all scriptures invites seekers to come to Him for life ( John 5:39-40 ) as He is the bread of life that gives life to the world John 6:30-36 Not all Bibles capitalized spirit in John 6:63 and 2 Corinthians 3:6 because those references is not about the Holy Spirit but a vital principle or a mental disposition.

Who is the Truth, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

Scriptures specified Jesus as that Truth. John 14:6 If it did not matter in how to come to God the Father by, then all those believers going astray by going to the Spirit in seeking the Spirit for tongues for private use would be okay, right? But it is not okay just as they are going to the spirit for "slain in the spirit" and "holy laughter" and other sensational signs in the flesh where people lose self control & fall backwards in.

Who raised Jesus from the dead, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

All Three Witnesses within that One Godhead did it.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Who lives in the saved, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

All Three Witnesses for why God's witness in us that He has saved us is backed up by the 3 Witnesses within the Godhead.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.... 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Is the new law the law of Christ or the law of the Spirit?

You need a reference for asking that question.

Who sends the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Jesus said the Father will do it when He is no longer present with His disciples on earth but had ascended to God the Father. John 14:16-17 & John 14:26

Who pours out the Holy Spirit, the Father or Jesus?

Do we live in the Holy Spirit, or do we live in Jesus?

Do we live through Jesus or through the Holy Spirit?

Does Jesus circumcision or hearts, or does the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts?

Does Jesus intercede for us, or does the Holy Spirit?

Who forgives sins, the Father or Jesus?

Who sanctifies us, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Are we baptized in Christ, or are we baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Was everything made through God the Father, or through Jesus.

Is God the Father the Savior, or is Jesus?

If the Father the Redeemer, or Jesus?

Is the Father the Rock, or is Jesus?

Is the Father the Shepherd, or is Jesus the Shepherd?

Is the Father the Holy One, or is Jesus?

Are they the Father's commands, or are they Jesus' commands?

Does the Father draw us, or does Jesus draw us?

Will the Father raise the dead, or does Jesus raise the dead?

Is the Father light, or is Jesus light?

Ask anything in the Father's name, or anything in Jesus’ name he will do it?

Do we call on the Father, or do we call on Jesus?

Does the Father search minds and hearts, or does Jesus search minds and hearts?

Did the Father create us with His hands, or did Jesus create us with his hands?

Are we in the Father's hands, or are we in Jesus' hands?

Are we to be transformed into the image of God, or in the image of Jesus, or in the image of the Spirit?

Th rest of the questions are unnecessary & convoluted. God be willing, you should see the truth in His words that there are 3 Separate Witnesses within the Godhead as God the Father's will shall be done does not mean They are One Person when obviously, the Son's prayer request in the Garden of Gethsemane ought to have proven that otherwise as well as Him experiencing that separate from the Father on the cross.

By the way, for you to ask those questions, you should answer them with scripture. Do break them up in smaller posts if you are really going to do that.

 

[God's Truth]

@Daniel L. and @GodB4Us

I have more to say to prove that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same one, but you aren't even answering my questions anyway merely repeating yourselves.

I didn't make this thread, I joined in on it and have been very respectful and only wanted to share my beliefs and the scriptures.

 

[Daniel L.]

go against what the Father says in the Old Testament?

It doesn't, the Trinity is One Triune True God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

he IS the Father come as a son

First, you need to confess Jesus is the Son of God. But you said He is the Father. The Father is not the Son of God, Jesus is the Son of God. Your "as a Son" doesn't change a thing. You should drop it.

Then you need to confess Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is come in the flesh. But according to you, the Father is the Son of Himself, and it was the Father that came in the flesh, not the Son.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Daniel L.]

I have more to say to prove that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same one, but you aren't even answering my questions anyway merely repeating yourselves.

Yes Three Persons, One God, that is what the Trinity teaches. Your questions already proved the Trinity, because they all involve Two or Three Persons. If you really believe in One Person only, then you shouldn't be asking, because the answer would be the same to all of them, the Father, since it is the only Person that exists, right? -But because they are Three in One, you can ask those questions, but you need to understand that you are proving the Trinity to be True, and One Person theology to be false, just by asking them.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes Three Persons, One God, that is what the Trinity teaches. Your questions already proved the Trinity, because they all involve Two or Three Persons. If you really believe in One Person only, then you shouldn't be asking, because the answer would be the same to all of them, the Father, since it is the only Person that exists, right? -But because they are Three in One, you can ask those questions, but you need to understand that you are proving the Trinity to be True, and One Person theology to be false, just by asking them.

You aren't listening hard enough. I keep saying there are three, and you keep saying I am not saying that.

 

[God's Truth]

It doesn't, the Trinity is One Triune True God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

First, you need to confess Jesus is the Son of God. But you said He is the Father. The Father is not the Son of God, Jesus is the Son of God. Your "as a Son" doesn't change a thing. You should drop it.

Then you need to confess Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is come in the flesh. But according to you, the Father is the Son of Himself, and it was the Father that came in the flesh, not the Son.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

You need to stop trying to claim I am the Antichrist.
Your insults are no defense for any truth.
I have told you many times that Jesus is the son of God.
THE TRINITY DOCTRINE ITSELF SAYS JESUS IS GOD.
Do you want me to keep telling you that you are the Antichrist for saying Jesus is God and that you didn't say Jesus is the son?!!!

 

[Daniel L.]

there are three

Three What?

I have told you many times that Jesus is the son of God.

Right, but in your hearth you mean the Father is the Son of Himself. Because you only believe in One Person. In order to confess Jesus is.. You need to accept at least Two Persons, Father and Son, not just Father.

 

[God's Truth]

All Three Witnesses for why God's witness in us that He has saved us is backed up by the 3 Witnesses within the Godhead.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.... 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That scripture PROVES there is ONLY ONE DIVINE SPIRIT and that the the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same.
Just read it more carefully.
When we receive the Holy Spirit, we are receiving GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF, and JESUS HIMSELF.
We are given ONE SPIRIT, not three different Spirits.

You need a reference for asking that question.

Are you kidding? You think I am going to do all that typing for someone who doesn't even attempt to answer the questions?

Th rest of the questions are unnecessary & convoluted.

How can you say such a thing when they are questions with answers FROM THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

God be willing, you should see the truth in His words that there are 3 Separate Witnesses within the Godhead as God the Father's will shall be done does not mean They are One Person when obviously, the Son's prayer request in the Garden of Gethsemane ought to have proven that otherwise as well as Him experiencing that separate from the Father on the cross.

God is willing, but a person has to repent!
I repented for following and believing falseness and I gave up a lot to know God's Truth, but all that "a lot" is nothing compared to what I received.
You are just going by what some teacher you choose says, even if it isn't reasonable and goes against the scriptures.

By the way, for you to ask those questions, you should answer them with scripture. Do break them up in smaller posts if you are really going to do that.

That is a lot of work for me to do for you when you won't answer those questions!

Answer the questions and I will show you the scriptures.

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry, brother. A lot of believers take that verse out of context for the meaning of that message, so you are not the first.

The Samaritan woman stated that her people worshipped God in the mountains while she pointed out the Jews worshipped God in Jerusalem, mainly the Temple. Jesus was declaring that the time will come and now is when those who come to worship God the Father shall do so "anywhere" in spirit & in truth, thus God is a Spirit is referring to His Omnipresence as not confined to a specific place of worship; not inferring that God is only Spirit.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. KJV

Question; do you read this as referring to Jesus Christ as He is the King of kings that is to appear?

And are you referring the light that Jesus Christ is currently dwelling in now as Heaven that no man can approach or has seen yet or are you referring to Jesus dwelling with the Father that no man can approach or seen yet or both?

How are you applying that scripture to mean exactly?

Seeing how the Word of God made a request for "us" to make man in our image and after our likeness, even " if " God made Himself a body known as the Word of God to perform all the acts of creation, and then the Word of God came as the incarnated Son of Man, then at the time of the request for the creation of man in Genesis 1:26 , the Father also had a body to create man after our image and after our likeness. So there is no if because that is false. The Word of God was not created. He is the firstborn of all creation to signify that He is the Creator.

Now for our reference of Colossians 1:15 Is the Son invisible? No. But He is the image of the invisible God and so He must also be invisible. Not quite. Invisible can mean not presently seen at the moment. Here is another verse where Jesus Christ is invisible.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So invisible means "not presently seen} and certainly not inferring that God the Father does not have a body since the Son has a body for how and why man was created in "our image" and after "our likeness".

Why would the Word of God make a request to make man in our image and after our likeness then? Who was He talking to since no one else can counsel Him being God?

Isiaah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? 13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?



Now if you say that God created Jesus only at the time of His incarnation, as if only the Spirit of the Lord created everything, then you will have a problem with John 1:1-14. As it is, this thread proves with scripture that Jesus was the God men had seen in the O.T. Jesus The God That Men Had Seen In The O.T.

Jews tried to explain Genesis 1:26 away that God was conferring with angels and another explanation was God was conferring with the elements of creation, but Genesis 1:27 testify that God alone did it in creating man in His image.

So the Word of God conferred with God the Father and when God the Father agreed, along with the Spirit in compliance to the Father's will, the Word of God created man in His image.


Actually, it was God the Son in the Old Testament for why it is Jesus Christ saying that in Revelation 1:17-18 and not just Revelation 22:12.

For God to be true to His words about how 2 or 3 witnesses are required to establish a testimony and to be able to judge any one, ( Deuteronomy 17:6 & Deuteronomy 19:15 ) in being true ( John 8:17 ) as God the Father & His Spirit did this in testifying of His Son as God the Redeemer at His water baptism in Matthew 3:15-17 to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17 and that means God cannot be a One Person God, but a Three Witnesses within the One Godhead.

Remember God said this in a proverb;

Proverbs 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

Different lips, different mouths, different person bearing testimony & praise.

So can Jesus be the Father when the Father testified of His Son?

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Jesus said no.

Jesus IS the Word of God.

The Word of God is the Spirit.

Jesus is the one and only God the Father made visible, with a physical body.

The Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT OF GOD.

You trinitarians say God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is a different Spirit, and that Jesus' spirit is yet another different Spirit.

There is only one divine Spirit.

The scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit is God, and that Jesus the Lord is the Holy Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

Three What?

Right, welcome to the Trinity. Three Persons, you realize that if you only believe in One Person, you can only say, God reveals Himself as Father, Father "as a Son" and Father "as the Holy Spirit". So if you want to say Father, Son and Holy Spirit, first you have to accept the Trinity, because such a statement implyies Three Distinct Divine Persons.

You are a Trinitarian, then. Because in order to say this, you are implying Three Distinct Divine Persons, Three Names. If you were to believe in One Person, you could only state that you believe in Father, Father "as a Son" and Father "as the" Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Scriptures teach Three Divine Persons, Distinct from One Another. That is how they can interact between Each Other. So, all your questions where at least Two Persons are Named, all assume trinitarian theology, they assume Two or Three Persons, Distinct from One Another, interacting with Each Other. So, basically, all of your questions prove the Trinity is True, and that you don't really believe in One Person only, because if you did, then the answer to all your questions would be Father, since He is the Only Person that exists, right? -But because there are Three, and you know it, you ask questions about Three Distinct Persons.

Distinct, but NOT different. The trinitarians say they are DISTINCT AND different.

It looks like you have noticed that I am no modalist, good, because I don't have their beliefs exactly either.

The modalists say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not exist at the same time.

However, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do exist at the same time.

They are still the same one and only Spirit though, and not three different Spirits like the trinitarians say.

They are not different, they are one, one even means 'the same'.

The trinitarians says there are three different divine Spirits.

That is not in the scriptures.

Show me from the scriptures that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three DIFFERENT Spirits, and I will show you the scriptures that tell you they are the same.

Think about it more---

You call them three different "Persons".

What is a person?

A person has a soul, which is a physical body, and has its own spirit.

Jesus is God the Father made visible.

The Father is a Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is His Spirit.

Jesus is the Father's physical body.

They are one.

 

[GodB4Us]

You aren't listening hard enough. I keep saying there are three, and you keep saying I am not saying that.

When you say They are the same One as if inferring One God wearing different hats as in different titles then how can there be three Witnesses within the One God when it is One Witness going by different hats? Not the same thing.

 

[God's Truth]

When you say They are the same One as if inferring One God wearing different hats

I don't like your analogy of just wearing a different hat.

as in different titles then how can there be three Witnesses within the One God when it is One Witness going by different hats? Not the same thing.

God is three existing at the same time. God is a Father, a Son, and the Holy Spirit who goes forth from Him.

 

[GodB4Us]

I don't like your analogy of just wearing a different hat.

Not sure what analogy you can use that best represent your belief when you claim there is only a One Person / One God belief.

God is three existing at the same time. God is a Father, a Son, and the Holy Spirit who goes forth from Him.

That would infer in according to my belief, a Fourth Person in the Godhead, would it not, if the Father is also sent from Him? Maybe you did not meant to post that, but I disagree.

As according to your belief, that still does not answer why if They were all the same Person, then it would not matter if believers pray to the holy Spirit to come and fall on them again and again and again because the Spirit is the Father, right?

But it is the spirit of the antichrist that is answering when they pray to the Holy Spirit to come & fall on them in "slain in the spirit" & "holy laughter" movement.

Does that mean the Holy Spirit is not God? No. It means we should pay attention to Jesus's words for how He said we can only come to God the Father by and that is by the only way provided, by only the Son. How else can sinners in the world that go to spirits and worship other gods repent unless they need the singular invitation for eternal life and that is by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of God in order to come to God the Father by in Heaven.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

And if what you believe is true that they are the same Person, then it does not matter Who we honor & worship if the Spirit is the same as the Father & the Son, then why is it that confusion comes when focus is on the Holy Spirit in worship which God is not the author of??

See the problem?

 

[Daniel L.]

Jesus is God the Father

Your view fails to confess that Jesus is the Son of God. You say that He is the Father Himself, and so everything after that is error on top of error. You fail to confess Jesus is the Messiah, and that Jesus is come in the flesh. You attribitue those to the Father. And so, you fail to confess, and built on top of sand.

 

[God's Truth]

Not sure what analogy you can use that best represent your belief when you claim there is only a One Person / One God belief.

That would infer in according to my belief, a Fourth Person in the Godhead, would it not, if the Father is also sent from Him? Maybe you did not meant to post that, but I disagree.

A fourth Person? You mean since trinitarians say "God", and "Father", and "Jesus the Son", and "the Holy Spirit"?
You said it, not me.

As according to your belief, that still does not answer why if They were all the same Person, then it would not matter if believers pray to the holy Spirit to come and fall on them again and again and again because the Spirit is the Father, right?

What?
Are you trying to make this a speaking in tongues thread?

But it is the spirit of the antichrist that is answering when they pray to the Holy Spirit to come & fall on them in "slain in the spirit" & "holy laughter" movement.

It sounds like you are trying to turn this into a speaking in tongues thread.

I don't know why I am getting publicly warned often, when I don't even tell people like you do that they are the Antichrist.

You and the tongue speakers get away with saying those things, but I who am careful am the one threatened.

When I was saved, I used to believe I could speak in tongues and interpret---so I would never ever tell someone they are not saved because they believe that.

My parents died when I was in my 20's, and they died as Catholics. I don't think they are damned to hell, even though I believe they were in a false denomination.

Condemning people is not what I am doing.

I am just trying to help us all be like minded according to the scriptures and not teachings from man.

Does that mean the Holy Spirit is not God? No. It means we should pay attention to Jesus's words for how He said we can only come to God the Father by and that is by the only way provided, by only the Son. How else can sinners in the world that go to spirits and worship other gods repent unless they need the singular invitation for eternal life and that is by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of God in order to come to God the Father by in Heaven.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

And if what you believe is true that they are the same Person, then it does not matter Who we honor & worship if the Spirit is the same as the Father & the Son, then why is it that confusion comes when focus is on the Holy Spirit in worship which God is not the author of??

See the problem?

You aren't making sense. Maybe you can try to explain better?