The Nativity

[Ivar]

A few posts back you said you were gathering the strongest possible argument for Joseph as Jesus' biological father. What is your motivation for doing this?

shouldn't the strongest argument be gathered for and against

A few posts back you said you were gathering the strongest possible argument for Joseph as Jesus' biological father. What is your motivation for doing this?

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Evaluating the strongest evidence or argument for or against something.

 

[Hekuran]

You still haven't answered the question about your motivation

 

[Ivar]

Ivar -- Scripture already says that Joseph was Not the biological father of Jesus. According to Matthew 1:18 "...... she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. and then vs 20 ......be cause what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. And vs 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, Because He will save His people from their sins."

Luke 1:34 - 35 "How will this be, : Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin. The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God."

Scripture already says what it says,

@Sue D.
Ok you Mentioned Matthew Chapter 1
First and Foremost Scripture says the generation or genealogy of Jesus Christ. Joseph is mentioned as being part of that Genealogy
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Joseph is the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus.
Of signifies ownership or possession. No need to say Joseph begat Jesus because Mat 1:1 mentions that this is the generation or genealogy of Christ. Or the first 15 to 17 verse of Matthew Chapter 1 is the generation or genealogy of Christ.

Talking about Mary? " More than likely you response"
Well
2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
This means that Christ has to be a descendant of not just David but also Solomon.
Joseph is a descendant of Solomon as mentioned who we knew sat on the throne.
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mary is a descendant of Nathan
Luke 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

Before I continue what issues might you have with this in relation to scripture?
Try to be as simple and concise as possible.

 

[Sue D.]

Ivar -- look back at post # 40.

And Why would you want to prove that Joseph was Jesus' biological father. When Scripture that has been shared Proves other-wise.

You Do realize the implications of Jesus' father being Joseph or any other man for that matter. -- rather than the Holy Spirit.

IF Mary had been a virgin when Joseph was with her for the first time then their first born would have been just like any other Jewish baby boy being born. Maybe that 100 % human son would have been a religious teacher of that day -- and maybe he would have died a martyr. And mankind Still would not have had a Savior.

However, Because the Holy Spirit came upon Mary -- while she was still a virgin -- and, as Scripture says - Joseph had Not been with Mary until After Jesus birth -- Jesus was born into this world and completed the job He was sent to do.

And , as Matthew 1:21 says -- "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, - Because He will save His people from their sins."

Unless -- are you possibly anti-Semitic?! You don't like the Jewish population? Maybe you don't want them to have a Savior.

But in the book of Galatians 2:7 - 8 "On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching to Gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews."

Or possibly you don't want to believe that Jesus came in the form of a baby -- you're still waiting for Christ to come as King. And He Will -- during His 1,000 yr reign of the world from Jerusalem.

So -- what IS your motivation.

 

[Ivar]

You still haven't answered the question about your motivation

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

@Hekuran
Evaluating the strongest evidence or argument for or against something.

This is my answer and I am unable to break it down any further than this at this time.

 

[Ivar]

Ivar -- look back at post # 40.

And Why would you want to prove that Joseph was Jesus' biological father. When Scripture that has been shared Proves other-wise.

You Do realize the implications of Jesus' father being Joseph or any other man for that matter. -- rather than the Holy Spirit.

IF Mary had been a virgin when Joseph was with her for the first time then their first born would have been just like any other Jewish baby boy being born. Maybe that 100 % human son would have been a religious teacher of that day -- and maybe he would have died a martyr. And mankind Still would not have had a Savior.

However, Because the Holy Spirit came upon Mary -- while she was still a virgin -- and, as Scripture says - Joseph had Not been with Mary until After Jesus birth -- Jesus was born into this world and completed the job He was sent to do.

And , as Matthew 1:21 says -- "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, - Because He will save His people from their sins."

Unless -- are you possibly anti-Semitic?! You don't like the Jewish population? Maybe you don't want them to have a Savior.

But in the book of Galatians 2:7 - 8 "On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching to Gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews."

Or possibly you don't want to believe that Jesus came in the form of a baby -- you're still waiting for Christ to come as King. And He Will -- during His 1,000 yr reign of the world from Jerusalem.

So -- what IS your motivation.

@Sue D.

In relation to Matthew 1:18

After Pregnant
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

Keywords/Phrases
1. espoused = legally pledged
2. before they came together,
3. publick example

Coming Together Process
Deu 22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
Deu 22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
Deu 22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
Deu 22:16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
Deu 22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
Deu 22:18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
Deu 22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
Deu 22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Deu 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the ***** in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Ok Joseph could be the father if they had sex before they came together "in accordance with Hebrew tradition / coming together process"
Joseph not willing to make publick example ; Joseph may have broke her hymen thru intercourse so there can be no proof of tokens of virginity.
Then virgin birth would have to be when a virgin conceives after having sex for first time " along those lines"
Of course this is only possible if scriptures are not contradicted and imply this


In relation to
Luke 1:34 - 35

Samson also was born of the Holy Spirit however that does not mean Manoah was not his father according to the flesh.
One could say Samson mother was barren when the holy spirit came upon her.
I see no evidence that someone cannot be born of the Holy Spirit and have a male father according to the flesh.

The Holy Spirit coming upon people or women is nothing new.

Judges 13:3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

The factor of the matter is that Judges 133:3 could not take place unless the Holy Spirit was active.


All of this I have mentioned before in Post # 28 & 36

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.
I answered your question thru scripture to the best of my abilities. " And there is still possibly more scripture in favor of Joseph being the father."
If you decide to reply my question to you now is "What logical answer thru scripture do you have for why Joseph did not want to make Mary a publick example?"

 

[Ivar]

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

@Hekuran
Evaluating the strongest evidence or argument for or against something.

This is my answer and I am unable to break it down any further than this at this time.

@Hekuran

Iron sharpeth Iron.
Maybe that answer helps because is part of it.

 

[Sue D.]

@Sue D.
Ok you Mentioned Matthew Chapter 1
First and Foremost Scripture says the generation or genealogy of Jesus Christ. Joseph is mentioned as being part of that Genealogy
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Joseph is the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus.
Of signifies ownership or possession. No need to say Joseph begat Jesus because Mat 1:1 mentions that this is the generation or genealogy of Christ. Or the first 15 to 17 verse of Matthew Chapter 1 is the generation or genealogy of Christ.

Talking about Mary? " More than likely you response"
Well
2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
This means that Christ has to be a descendant of not just David but also Solomon.
Joseph is a descendant of Solomon as mentioned who we knew sat on the throne.
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mary is a descendant of Nathan
Luke 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

Before I continue what issues might you have with this in relation to scripture?
Try to be as simple and concise as possible.

Matthew 1:16 ".....of Mary, of whom was born Jesus.

Please -- let's Not assume what my response will be.

Joseph through marriage to Mary, he became part of the Legal geneology -- but the blood line was through Mary. Which means there's a difference between the Legal geneology And the blood line.

Joseph, being Mary's husband was the Legal father. But the Holy Spirit was the real Father.

Look at Luke 1:32 - 33 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most high. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David,k and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; His kindgom will never end."


And Now, I'm to be as simple and concise as possible. I'm really curious as to what your back ground is.

BTW -- I've also been asking my husband about some of this . I haven't paid much attention To geneologies because Scripture tells us not to be hung up on them. But -- they Are helpful in sorting through things at times.
My husband has an M.A. in theology. I've grown up in Bible and have had a couple of years of Bible college. And I do a lot of Bible studies.

The entire emphasis has been on Mary being a virgin and being with child through the Holy Spirit.

Later on -- Mary and Joseph Do have more children. James is mentioned as being the brother of Jesus. Nothing more is mentioned of Joseph or other members of that family except that there were more in the family.

A question Could be asked Why did God chose to bring mankind a Savior by This means. The answer = Because God DID. His sovereign plan from the beginning of creation.

AND -- through the virginity of Mary -- Jesus Christ was both man and deity. That's the Only way He could die for our sins and rise again. And after He rose again -- Proving that He was the Son of God and Not just another religious leader of that day. He Also ascended back Up to heaven after 40 days back on the earth.

so -- yes, God chose a young virgin woman to give birth to Jesus Christ. And He died on the cross to become our Savior.

 

[Sue D.]

@Sue D.
I answered your question thru scripture to the best of my abilities. " And there is still possibly more scripture in favor of Joseph being the father."
If you decide to reply my question to you now is "What logical answer thru scripture do you have for why Joseph did not want to make Mary a publick example?"

That is not the issue here.

That which is Most important Is the virgin birth of Jesus Christ through Mary.

Why do you believe that Jesus was born? What was His purpose in being here?

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.
First and foremost do not omit from Matthew 1:16 the name of Joseph because that is relevant.

Please -- let's Not assume what my response will be. My Apologies!!!!

Nothing new under the son. The lineage is and has always been Paternal

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Also science proves that it is the male that determines the gender of a child. We have Y chromosomes however women do not.

Also
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

You still have not answered why Joseph did not want to make her a publick example

Lastly luke 2:41 to 50 with emphasis on
Luke 2: 41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
Luke 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? " Ivar reaction : What in the world he talking about!!!???"

Luke 2: 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

"For now I think I can rest my case" :smile:

My backgound??? For all intensive purposes I am a descendant of Noah.

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, Mary and Joseph were considered the Legal parents of Jesus. As a young man -- he'd gotten separated from his parents and they were very worried about Him. The account is found in Luke 2: 41 - 52.
Jesus was 12 at the time. His parents -- Legally Joseph and Mary went up to the Fast, according to the custom. After the feast was over, Jesus had decided to stay behind in Jerusalem , the rest of the family had been on their way home already.
They went back to Jerusalem to find Him. He was found in the Temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to hem and asking questions. Every was amazed at His understanding and His answers.

Mary, his mother asked Him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." "Why were you searching forMe? he asked. Didn't you know I had to be in My Father's house?"

But after that He was obedient to them. He put Himself under their authority as His Earthly parents.

Obviously He was Not referring to Joseph, but God His Father. So -- even as a young man, He knew who He was.


Please -- can we remember that Jesus was no usual human being. He was / Is the Son of God. His Father was God through the Holy Spirit. No 'Y' chromosome needed,.

And, yes, Jesus was born into a Jewish family. Like His brethren. The people around Him.

So -- Why didn't Joseph want to make Mary a public example? Because the Angel of the Lord told him how Mary had become pregnant. That her pregnancy was okay. And he probably had some feelings for her. After all, they were betrothed to each other. They were going to be married. The angels' word was good enough for Joseph. (and it should be good enough for us).

And, yes, Joseph Was His Legal parent. But not His biological parent. Mary was His biological mother. The Holy Spirit was Jesus' real Father. And I suspect that 'everyone' knew that Then and most everyone believes that Now.

IF Joseph was Also His biological parent -- Jesus would Not have been able to be our Savior.

Sounds a lot like you're trying to deny the deity of Jesus. Why would you be wanting to take away our Savior / our Salvation.

What is Your motivation?!


It's late -- probably won't be on much longer this evening.

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luke 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
They understood not the saying because Joseph is the father according to the flesh.

Christ is the Son of God because he is the firstborn of all creatures or creation, and is led by the spirit of god,
Here is some proof.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Also when Christ came into the flesh he became and was known as a Son of Man.
"To be a Son of Man you have to be a male offspring of Adam and posses both x and y chromosomes at a minimum. The Y chromosomes are only obtained by male parents. Mary as a female would have had only XX chromosomes.
If I am wrong then I have seen no evidence otherwise. God is not the author of confusion neither there is nothing new under the son; with many things in old testament being shadows of things to come.

Also if you want to be technical, technically Christ is not the true savior. The true saviour is the one who sent him and exalted him as prince , and also made him his equal for a time.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Sounds like to you Jesus is less of a deity or is not a deity if Joseph is the father according to the flesh.
It would be more difficult for us to remotely come to any understanding if we simultaneously speak about the deity and conception of Christ at the same time. talking about one topic is the simplest.

My motivation is I am bored and i have a lot of free time that I should not have. This kind of helps to keep me out of trouble. lol
At some point I will find a new hobby or chased off so you shouldn't have to worry.

 

[Hekuran]

My motivation is I am bored and i have a lot of free time that I should not have. This kind of helps to keep me out of trouble. lol
At some point I will find a new hobby or chased off so you shouldn't have to worry.

Really appreciate the honest reply here. It's probably true of many people here. Too much time, and boredom and lack of purpose, for whatever reason, are difficult to handle well. Pray that you'll soon find something more fruitful and productive.

 

[Ivar]

@Hekuran
Interesting comment. Not asking you this question and expect no answer but one must wonder. Is it backslided or backhanded? Is it some sort of proverbial underhanded low jab and insult? Lol. Definitely seems like it can be taken as such. Just remember that you yourself are on this platform and the same can be said about you. Very interesting comment indeed. Especially when you are counted as being on this platform for almost a decade "Nov 2008"
Also consider "which applies to me to"
Matthew 12:36-37

 

[Hekuran]

@Hekuran
Interesting comment. Not asking you this question and expect no answer but one must wonder. Is it backslided or backhanded? Is it some sort of proverbial underhanded low jab and insult? Lol. Definitely seems like it can be taken as such. Just remember that you yourself are on this platform and the same can be said about you. Very interesting comment indeed. Especially when you are counted as being on this platform for almost a decade "Nov 2008"
Also consider "which applies to me to"
Matthew 12:36-37

I wrote that in sincerity and certainly not to do you down in anyway. I've been through times quite recently where I've had to handle the frustration of too much time and not enough to fill it. My experience is that it's not an easy battle to fight.

 

[Ivar]

I wrote that in sincerity and certainly not to do you down in anyway. I've been through times quite recently where I've had to handle the frustration of too much time and not enough to fill it. My experience is that it's not an easy battle to fight.

@Hekuran
is fine either way, whether you are sincere or not. This is a platform about talking about Jesus and bible therefore I Am. Thank you for the clarification. Like I said Iron sharpeth Iron. One can potentially learn from opposing views or strenghten their own foundation. I am aware of the view that Joseph is the father according to the flesh and the view that Joseph is not the father. My intention or motivation is stacking one view point against opposing viewpoint to get a deeper understanding of which one is the stronger argument. Like I said I happened to have free time.

 

[Sue D.]

@Sue D.

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luke 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
They understood not the saying because Joseph is the father according to the flesh.

Christ is the Son of God because he is the firstborn of all creatures or creation, and is led by the spirit of god,
Here is some proof.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Also when Christ came into the flesh he became and was known as a Son of Man.
"To be a Son of Man you have to be a male offspring of Adam and posses both x and y chromosomes at a minimum. The Y chromosomes are only obtained by male parents. Mary as a female would have had only XX chromosomes.
If I am wrong then I have seen no evidence otherwise. God is not the author of confusion neither there is nothing new under the son; with many things in old testament being shadows of things to come.

Also if you want to be technical, technically Christ is not the true savior. The true saviour is the one who sent him and exalted him as prince , and also made him his equal for a time.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Sounds like to you Jesus is less of a deity or is not a deity if Joseph is the father according to the flesh.
It would be more difficult for us to remotely come to any understanding if we simultaneously speak about the deity and conception of Christ at the same time. talking about one topic is the simplest.

My motivation is I am bored and i have a lot of free time that I should not have. This kind of helps to keep me out of trouble. lol
At some point I will find a new hobby or chased off so you shouldn't have to worry.

Does your apparent boredom and having lots of time on your hands really give you the 'right' to try to find reasons to dismiss the authority of God's Word? Or - in reality -- maybe you Don't have much respect For the authority of God's Word.

As an adult in my late 60's, I've Also been through some rough times -- but I certainly haven't used my time to tear down God's Word.

The Godhead / Trinity is God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. Without their working together, we have No salvation.

Jesus Christ in John 14:6 says that 'I am the way, the truth , and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."

The Man, Christ Jesus, is our Mediator between God and Us. The Son of God Became man so that He Could die on the cross for our sins. He took Your sin upon Himself -- died with it -- went to hell and back In Your Place -- and then rose back up after 3 days. Now- maybe You don't appreciate that, but every born-again person Does. Because -- it's because of That that we Can be born-again.

One reason I've stayed in this conversation with you is because Mary's being a virgin -- the Holy Spirit coming upon her and impregnating her -- Rather than it being Joseph -- is vital to our salvation. And I'd really rather that others reading this thread would Not come away with the idea that Mary Could have just as easily simply been a young woman who got together with Joseph before they were supposed to be together and got pregnant. Because That would have made Jesus just like any other Jewish boy. But He certainly wasn't. He Was and Still Is God's Son.

Have you considered the fact that 'we' people messed up the perfect world that God created for all of us. IF we would only obey God's Word instead of listening to satan, we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. But, God, in His mercy -- sent His Son to this earth -- to be our Savior. So, Yes, Jesus Christ IS our Savior. For real.

 

[Sue D.]

I'm probably , also, concerned about your salvation or lack there of.

What would you normally Be doing? Why are you bored? How old Are you. Your background?

And, yes, you are talking about Jesus and Bible -- but it would be nice if it were in a more positive way. Like appreciating / promoting the authority Of God's Word -- we / I have been sharing Lots of Scripture with you showing definitively the reality Of Mary being a virgin And of Joseph not being with Mary until After Jesus was born. And that Normally both chromosones Are needed to create a child / male child. BUT -- as has been pointed out -- the Holy Spirit was the 'father' of the baby Jesus. The Only time in history of mankind that That would be True. Only the xx was needed. And, of course, scientifically, biologically it isn't possible. But That's why it's called a MIRACLE.

And Joseph was a LEGAL parent of Jesus. But not biological.

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.
our conversation ends here. you are seemingly self imposing quite a few things on me. I myself have never asked anything about your personals. I only been conversing about the word and my beliefs thru that word. Everything I have backed up or showed correlation thru scripture. You can or could have either agreed or disagreed. You can or could explained why and leave it at that. I have only responded to support my argument and strengthen my argument. I have answered your questions to the best of my abilities thru scripture but you have avoided mines. I have also used your arguments to strengthen mines keeping on topic with the birth of Christ in the flesh "whether you agree or disagree".
Also for the fourth or fifth and final time the birth of Christ in the flesh does not strengthen or diminish his divinity or deity status.

Lastly The birth of Christ was not a miracle but prophecy. Whether the Jews believe in Jesus or not they all believe in the validity of Isaiah 7:14. The miracle or sign was the star not the birth.