The Rapture

[Bendito]

Since 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV prophesied that many will depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, that is one fight in keeping the faith that there is no receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation because He is in us as Spirit-filled as a testimony from God in us that we are saved so we can tell others the Good News about Jesus Christ because He IS Our Savior.

There are other types of fights in keeping the faith in Jesus Christ as you should know. I am sure there are some you are not aware of like Billy Graham's and now Franklin Graham's altar that if you are not sure you are saved, to come forward to make a commitment to follow Christ as if that is how any one is saved which is the opposite of the gospel they had both preached which is any one that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Discipleship is separate from salvation and it has to be done by His disciples teaching new believers to learn how Jesus Christ is our Good Shepherd Top that we can trust Him to help us to follow Him by His power and by His words in the KJV thus by faith alone as His disciples. Running that race to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin is about abiding in Him as His discipleship so that we may bear fruit and our joy may be full, but salvation has been obtained in order for them to have Jesus Christ in them to be able to run that race at all.

As if that vain yoke of bondage was not enough, men got ensnared by the Promise Keeper's movement to make promises to be good husbands and good fathers and good church leaders and so forth whereby they give grace to themselves by saying God gives this grace for them to keep trying and yet still call themselves Promise Keepers. God does not give grace for us to live in sin, period. We either trust Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him by faith alone or we are resorting to our own power in living the Christian life which is a false witness because it is about testifying of themselves as Promise Keepers when they are not. The same goes for those who claim to be keeping their commitment to follow Christ, giving grace to themselves when they sin but judgment to others as if they are not a Christian or not saved when they sin.

Then there is that evolution theory that has caused many not to believe in the Bible and Jesus Christ altogether. That false science overthrew many believer's faith as they never knew that it is a false science and never a valid theory like the theory of gravity because macroevolution is a phenomenon not observed in the natural world. You try to pin the evolutionist to that definition they are using, and they will keep evading it in one form or fashion by belittling to our intelligence as if we just did not catch them in a lie.

So there are many types of fighting the good fight in keeping the faith in Jesus Christ; and there may even be some I still do not know about that is causing brethren to not believe in Him any more or fall away from the faith that is Jesus Christ to something else in His name and not even know it, but that is my understanding of it, brother.

What is your understanding of what fighting the good fight is in keeping the faith in Jesus Christ?

The disciples were all gathered in that upper room on Pentecost...Acts 2...Were they born again? I would certainly say they were, since they had ALL dedicated their lives to Jesus, and He had accepted them all.

These people received Jesus, they were born again and Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit since they got saved. They didn't even know there WAS a Holy Spirit!! Then they received Him...Days after they had been saved! But according to you, there is no receiving of the Holy Spirit except at salvation. Interesting

As concerning the Grahams inviting those who are not sure they are saved to start again....There is NOTHING WRONG with that..As in all things going back to the beginning is a help. Perhaps you should try it?

This thing you said here; "As if that vain yoke of bondage was not enough, men got ensnared by the Promise Keeper's movement to make promises to be good husbands and good fathers and good church leaders and so forth whereby they give grace to themselves by saying God gives this grace for them to keep trying and yet still call themselves Promise Keepers. God does not give grace for us to live in sin, period. We either trust Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him by faith alone or we are resorting to our own power in living the Christian life which is a false witness because it is about testifying of themselves as Promise Keepers when they are not. The same goes for those who claim to be keeping their commitment to follow Christ, giving grace to themselves when they sin but judgment to others as if they are not a Christian or not saved when they sin."

Well sir, I really have to ask you....Do you know what grace is? Please define it for us.
I ask because when we set ourselves to live in obedience to the Word, God can and does give His grace to do that. For them to claim Gods grace is not at all unscriptural. In fact, that grace is their covenant right!

You still have not said what Promise Keepers is....

Really sir, I'm beginning to think that when you say you are under constant attack by other people, you are being corrected in your uh theology and you do not want to take correction.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

The disciples were all gathered in that upper room on Pentecost...Acts 2...Were they born again? I would certainly say they were, since they had ALL dedicated their lives to Jesus, and He had accepted them all.

They were officially saved as in born again at Pentecost, but when I ask you for scripture of them making a commitment or a promise to Jesus Christ to prove that they dedicated their lives to Christ in that way, can you provide it? I see nothing they can boast about except f their faith in Jesus Christ for how they are following Him.

These people received Jesus, they were born again and Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit since they got saved. They didn't even know there WAS a Holy Spirit!! Then they received Him...Days after they had been saved! But according to you, there is no receiving of the Holy Spirit except at salvation. Interesting

Acts 19:1-7 KJV has Paul coming across "certain" disciples meaning he discern they were some kind of disciples but did not know what kind. When they did not know about the Holy Ghost, he had to ask them of what water baptism they were under; John the Baptist's. That told Paul what kind of disciples they were; they were disciples of John the Baptist's. Then Paul told them that Jesus was the One John the Baptist was preaching about and THEN they got water baptized in Jesus's name and then they got saved. If you are unaware that John the Baptist's had his own disciples, see these verses below;

Matthew 9:14Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

As concerning the Grahams inviting those who are not sure they are saved to start again....There is NOTHING WRONG with that..As in all things going back to the beginning is a help. Perhaps you should try it?

That is not the meaning of that altar call. They said "if you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ." So do you agree that making and keeping that commitment to follow Christ is how you can follow Him, let alone how you are saved?

If you say that is not what Billy Graham meant, but in an interview with Tony Snow, you may have to wonder if he was judging himself by that commitment for saying that.

"SNOW: When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?

GRAHAM: When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he
will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: Well done, our good
and faithful servant. Or he may say: You're in the wrong place.

SNOW: You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?

GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not -- I'm not a righteous man. People put
me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they
think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think
I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a
saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much."

Excerpts from above found at this link below.

Fox News Interview With Billy Graham

So by that commitment no flesh shall be justified because by that commitments is the knowledge of sin for why Billy Graham believed he may not belong in Heaven. That is his altar call and that is why many are not following Jesus today because by that commitment, they saw they could not finish by the flesh what Jesus has started; that Christianity was too hard, instead of relying on Him all the time by faith in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.

This thing you said here; "As if that vain yoke of bondage was not enough, men got ensnared by the Promise Keeper's movement to make promises to be good husbands and good fathers and good church leaders and so forth whereby they give grace to themselves by saying God gives this grace for them to keep trying and yet still call themselves Promise Keepers. God does not give grace for us to live in sin, period. We either trust Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him by faith alone or we are resorting to our own power in living the Christian life which is a false witness because it is about testifying of themselves as Promise Keepers when they are not. The same goes for those who claim to be keeping their commitment to follow Christ, giving grace to themselves when they sin but judgment to others as if they are not a Christian or not saved when they sin."

Well sir, I really have to ask you....Do you know what grace is? Please define it for us.

Grace is getting what we do not deserve just as mercy is not getting what we deserve. So thinking keeping a commitment to follow Christ is how we get mercy and grace, is not of the faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Romans 4:13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith...….16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;...………….

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Ask any Mason ( Freemason ) and they will tell you that a commitment is like a promise. If circumcision is the smallest letter of the law and f any believer did that, they have to do the whole law, then making a promise to God is the biggest letter of the law for why a believer has to do the whole law. Believers today need the Lord to forgive them for making bondages like that when it is His work to finish in us and to set us free from our own works to rest in Him that He will help us to follow Him.

As it is we are saved and trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd is how any saved believer can follow Him by faith alone to help us abide in His words as kept in the KJV.

I ask because when we set ourselves to live in obedience to the Word, God can and does give His grace to do that. For them to claim Gods grace is not at all unscriptural. In fact, that grace is their covenant right!

You and I are disagreeing with how to follow Him; by the religious flesh and will power or by faith in Jesus Christ as He is the power for how we are following Him.

You still have not said what Promise Keepers is....

The 7 Promises of the Promise Keepers' Program

Really sir, I'm beginning to think that when you say you are under constant attack by other people, you are being corrected in your uh theology and you do not want to take correction.

Well, that is the norm for any one in Christian forums, but this is about everyday life, so no, not quite the same, but a nightmare for any one to be living that way in America where supposedly the land of the free with liberty & justice for all, NOT.

 

[Bendito]

They were officially saved as in born again at Pentecost, but when I ask you for scripture of them making a commitment or a promise to Jesus Christ to prove that they dedicated their lives to Christ in that way, can you provide it? I see nothing they can boast about except f their faith in Jesus Christ for how they are following Him.

"Acts 19:1-7 KJV has Paul coming across "certain" disciples meaning he discern they were some kind of disciples but did not know what kind. When they did not know about the Holy Ghost, he had to ask them of what water baptism they were under; John the Baptist's. That told Paul what kind of disciples they were; they were disciples of John the Baptist's. Then Paul told them that Jesus was the One John the Baptist was preaching about and THEN they got water baptized in Jesus's name and then they got saved. If you are unaware that John the Baptist's had his own disciples, see these verses below;"


Matthew 9:14Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,



That is not the meaning of that altar call. They said "if you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ." So do you agree that making and keeping that commitment to follow Christ is how you can follow Him, let alone how you are saved?

If you say that is not what Billy Graham meant, but in an interview with Tony Snow, you may have to wonder if he was judging himself by that commitment for saying that.

"SNOW: When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?

GRAHAM: When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he
will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: Well done, our good
and faithful servant. Or he may say: You're in the wrong place.

SNOW: You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?

GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not -- I'm not a righteous man. People put
me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they
think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think
I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a
saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much."

Excerpts from above found at this link below.

Fox News Interview With Billy Graham

So by that commitment no flesh shall be justified because by that commitments is the knowledge of sin for why Billy Graham believed he may not belong in Heaven. That is his altar call and that is why many are not following Jesus today because by that commitment, they saw they could not finish by the flesh what Jesus has started; that Christianity was too hard, instead of relying on Him all the time by faith in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.



Grace is getting what we do not deserve just as mercy is not getting what we deserve. So thinking keeping a commitment to follow Christ is how we get mercy and grace, is not of the faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Romans 4:13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith...….16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;...………….

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Ask any Mason ( Freemason ) and they will tell you that a commitment is like a promise. If circumcision is the smallest letter of the law and f any believer did that, they have to do the whole law, then making a promise to God is the biggest letter of the law for why a believer has to do the whole law. Believers today need the Lord to forgive them for making bondages like that when it is His work to finish in us and to set us free from our own works to rest in Him that He will help us to follow Him.

As it is we are saved and trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd is how any saved believer can follow Him by faith alone to help us abide in His words as kept in the KJV.



You and I are disagreeing with how to follow Him; by the religious flesh and will power or by faith in Jesus Christ as He is the power for how we are following Him.



The 7 Promises of the Promise Keepers' Program



Well, that is the norm for any one in Christian forums, but this is about everyday life, so no, not quite the same, but a nightmare for any one to be living that way in America where supposedly the land of the free with liberty & justice for all, NOT.

You said. "They were officially saved as in born again at Pentecost, but when I ask you for scripture of them making a commitment or a promise to Jesus Christ to prove that they dedicated their lives to Christ in that way, can you provide it? I see nothing they can boast about except f their faith in Jesus Christ for how they are following Him." Yes they are following Him as you said. Scripture for them being saved? Look here. Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Who were the 'they'? the scripture speaks of? BELIEVERS! They were all there because they believed on the name of the Son.
Are you saved? If you are you are a believer too. That's why you're saved. So they were saved with scripture to back that assertion.

Then you said. ""Acts 19:1-7 KJV has Paul coming across "certain" disciples meaning he discern they were some kind of disciples but did not know what kind. When they did not know about the Holy Ghost, he had to ask them of what water baptism they were under; John the Baptist's. That told Paul what kind of disciples they were; they were disciples of John the Baptist's. Then Paul told them that Jesus was the One John the Baptist was preaching about and THEN they got water baptized in Jesus's name and then they got saved. If you are unaware that John the Baptist's had his own disciples, see these verses below;"
What? Did you read these verses? Not really? They told Paul that it was John that led them to accept Jesus, and baptised them....Then Paul baptised them again, then laid hands on those Christians and they received the Holy Spirit. What version are you reading?
Billy Graham is none of my business. He is the Lords business. Thank you for not putting that load on me.

You said. "
Grace is getting what we do not deserve just as mercy is not getting what we deserve. So thinking keeping a commitment to follow Christ is how we get mercy and grace, is not of the faith in Jesus Christ."
Foolish Churchianity answer. You've described mercy twice, but I did not ask for the definition of 'mercy'. I asked you for the definition of 'grace'.
Grace is the empowering presence of God in our lives, that enables us to do the things He has for us to do. Read it, memorize it, and swallow it...You'll need to know it all your life.

If we're going to discuss the Word, let's take the Word as the Word says it, and not change it to our own ideas. Can do?

 

[JesusIs4Me]

You said. "They were officially saved as in born again at Pentecost, but when I ask you for scripture of them making a commitment or a promise to Jesus Christ to prove that they dedicated their lives to Christ in that way, can you provide it? I see nothing they can boast about except f their faith in Jesus Christ for how they are following Him." Yes they are following Him as you said. Scripture for them being saved? Look here. Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Who were the 'they'? the scripture speaks of? BELIEVERS! They were all there because they believed on the name of the Son.
Are you saved? If you are you are a believer too. That's why you're saved. So they were saved with scripture to back that assertion.

All right then. Tell me why they did not teach everything Jesus taught them BEFORE they taught the gospel. Scripture tells me that they preached the gospel and then discipled them in teaching them everything Jesus had taught.

AND Jesus said in Luke 9:23 KJV that if any one was to follow Him, they were to deny themselves ( as being able to ), pick up their cross daily crucifying themselves since it is not we who live, but Christ Who lives in us, and follow Him which is the same thing as trusting Him to help us to follow Him. I do not see Jesus asking them to make a commitment or a promise to follow Him because that would mean He put confidence in men's religious flesh to be able to follow Him, and He did not.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

That is why He said in the sermon on the Mount about how Jews of old time had performed their oaths unto the Lord, but He said not to even swear at all ( which people did to declare their full intention to do it ) and He said why because 'You cannot make one hair white or black" in Matthew 5:36 KJV He said let your yes be yes and no be no because anything beyond that was of evil. ( Matthew 5:37 KJV )

So not only did Jesus NOT tell His disciples to make a promise or a commitment to follow Him, but HE spoke against it.

Then you said. ""Acts 19:1-7 KJV has Paul coming across "certain" disciples meaning he discern they were some kind of disciples but did not know what kind. When they did not know about the Holy Ghost, he had to ask them of what water baptism they were under; John the Baptist's. That told Paul what kind of disciples they were; they were disciples of John the Baptist's. Then Paul told them that Jesus was the One John the Baptist was preaching about and THEN they got water baptized in Jesus's name and then they got saved. If you are unaware that John the Baptist's had his own disciples, see these verses below;"
What? Did you read these verses? Not really? They told Paul that it was John that led them to accept Jesus, and baptised them....Then Paul baptised them again, then laid hands on those Christians and they received the Holy Spirit. What version are you reading?

You said " They told Paul that it was John that led them to accept Jesus, and baptised them" Feel free to read that again in verse 4 because it was Paul that said that about Jesus Christ being the One John the Baptist was telling people to believe on.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

Billy Graham is none of my business. He is the Lords business. Thank you for not putting that load on me.

Franklin Graham is still carrying on what Billy Graham has taught; I am not asking you to judge Billy Graham but look at how he doubted his being received into Heaven and then know that is what he meant for making that commitment to follow Christ for the assurance of his salvation and that is why he doubted. ( He is still saved, but he may not be raptured when the Bridegroom comes, but if not, he certainly will be after the great tribulation as you say, I cannot say what happened at the hour of his departure. He may have repented and called on Jesus to be saved trusting Him in that or he kept condemning himself because he was not always a good Christian ). Then judge that altar call as not of Him at all.

It is as bad as the Catholic Church that will not suffer believers to enter into that rest provided by Jesus Christ and so the same goes for that altar call to make that commitment to follow Christ as if keeping it, you can gain the assurance of your salvation and it obviously did not work out that very well for Billy Graham as far as that part in his interview with Tony Snow.

You said. "
Grace is getting what we do not deserve just as mercy is not getting what we deserve. So thinking keeping a commitment to follow Christ is how we get mercy and grace, is not of the faith in Jesus Christ."
Foolish Churchianity answer. You've described mercy twice, but I did not ask for the definition of 'mercy'. I asked you for the definition of 'grace'.
Grace is the empowering presence of God in our lives, that enables us to do the things He has for us to do. Read it, memorize it, and swallow it...You'll need to know it all your life.

Actually, you just didn't read my words correctly. Mercy is NOT getting what we deserve; Hell Grace is GETTING what we do NOT deserve : HEAVEN.

If grace is about seeking in continually receiving the Holy Spirit and the power supernaturally over and over again... it makes me wonder how you cannot say you are a leaky vessel unable to hold the new wine.

Either grace has been received which salvation is a free gift or the foolish virgins are still out to the market and has come short of that rest in Jesus Christ.

If we're going to discuss the Word, let's take the Word as the Word says it, and not change it to our own ideas. Can do?

Maybe when you slow down and read what I have written and what Paul actually said, we may progress in our discussion even if it ends in you disagreeing with me anyway, because you favor something not supported by scripture, but it is popular and wisely accepted in Christian circles.

 

[Bendito]

All right then. Tell me why they did not teach everything Jesus taught them BEFORE they taught the gospel. Scripture tells me that they preached the gospel and then discipled them in teaching them everything Jesus had taught.

AND Jesus said in Luke 9:23 KJV that if any one was to follow Him, they were to deny themselves ( as being able to ), pick up their cross daily crucifying themselves since it is not we who live, but Christ Who lives in us, and follow Him which is the same thing as trusting Him to help us to follow Him. I do not see Jesus asking them to make a commitment or a promise to follow Him because that would mean He put confidence in men's religious flesh to be able to follow Him, and He did not.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

That is why He said in the sermon on the Mount about how Jews of old time had performed their oaths unto the Lord, but He said not to even swear at all ( which people did to declare their full intention to do it ) and He said why because 'You cannot make one hair white or black" in Matthew 5:36 KJV He said let your yes be yes and no be no because anything beyond that was of evil. ( Matthew 5:37 KJV )

So not only did Jesus NOT tell His disciples to make a promise or a commitment to follow Him, but HE spoke against it.



You said " They told Paul that it was John that led them to accept Jesus, and baptised them" Feel free to read that again in verse 4 because it was Paul that said that about Jesus Christ being the One John the Baptist was telling people to believe on.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.



Franklin Graham is still carrying on what Billy Graham has taught; I am not asking you to judge Billy Graham but look at how he doubted his being received into Heaven and then know that is what he meant for making that commitment to follow Christ for the assurance of his salvation and that is why he doubted. ( He is still saved, but he may not be raptured when the Bridegroom comes, but if not, he certainly will be after the great tribulation as you say, I cannot say what happened at the hour of his departure. He may have repented and called on Jesus to be saved trusting Him in that or he kept condemning himself because he was not always a good Christian ). Then judge that altar call as not of Him at all.

It is as bad as the Catholic Church that will not suffer believers to enter into that rest provided by Jesus Christ and so the same goes for that altar call to make that commitment to follow Christ as if keeping it, you can gain the assurance of your salvation and it obviously did not work out that very well for Billy Graham as far as that part in his interview with Tony Snow.



Actually, you just didn't read my words correctly. Mercy is NOT getting what we deserve; Hell Grace is GETTING what we do NOT deserve : HEAVEN.

If grace is about seeking in continually receiving the Holy Spirit and the power supernaturally over and over again... it makes me wonder how you cannot say you are a leaky vessel unable to hold the new wine.

Either grace has been received which salvation is a free gift or the foolish virgins are still out to the market and has come short of that rest in Jesus Christ.



Maybe when you slow down and read what I have written and what Paul actually said, we may progress in our discussion even if it ends in you disagreeing with me anyway, because you favor something not supported by scripture, but it is popular and wisely accepted in Christian circles.

You said "Actually, you just didn't read my words correctly. Mercy is NOT getting what we deserve; Hell Grace is GETTING what we do NOT deserve : HEAVEN." As I said....That's the definition of mercy. Mercy is NOT grace.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

You said "Actually, you just didn't read my words correctly. Mercy is NOT getting what we deserve; Hell Grace is GETTING what we do NOT deserve : HEAVEN." As I said....That's the definition of mercy. Mercy is NOT grace.

According to you.

Mercy is not getting punishment you deserve.

Grace is getting reward you do not deserve.

Mercy is not about getting a reward. "Please,, have mercy on me" is pleading for not to be punished.

Grace is rewarding someone that did not do anything to deserve it.

So we agree to disagree.

 

[Bendito]

According to you.

Mercy is not getting punishment you deserve.

Grace is getting reward you do not deserve.

Mercy is not about getting a reward. "Please,, have mercy on me" is pleading for not to be punished.

Grace is rewarding someone that did not do anything to deserve it.

So we agree to disagree.

I already told you what grace is, so if you choose to refuse that..ok.

 

[Bill]

Fine...I'm just telling you that you have rights and authorities that you do not seem willing to use. Weapons for use on the enemy that seem to be gathering dust. If you want to keep those weapons bright and shiny like souvenirs I guess that's what you'll do.

During the life of Elijah, was everyone called to be just like Elijah.

No.

Elijah spoke and preached to the house of Isreal. And there was only one Elijah. Other priests, but only one Elijah. Not everyone is called to be the warrior.

We are sheep amoung wolves. The armor of God is not always meant for those who attack the Darkness. But also for those who defend from it. Prayer is our greatest weapon against the Darkness. What is prayer, openly talking to Jesus/God

 

[JesusIs4Me]

I already told you what grace is, so if you choose to refuse that..ok.

Your definition of grace becomes vague when mercy as defined is not the same as grace that has been defined by my post. The definition for grace is not the same for the definition of mercy, but you see them as the same for why your definition of grace is vague to me.

So why not apply your definition of grace in layman's term?

 

[Sue D.]

Grace is that which God gives us that we do Not deserve. Because we have all sinned and the wages / penalty/ is death. But the Grace / Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mercy could be defined likewise. We don't deserve God's mercy, but He gives it Anyway.

 

[Bendito]

Your definition of grace becomes vague when mercy as defined is not the same as grace that has been defined by my post. The definition for grace is not the same for the definition of mercy, but you see them as the same for why your definition of grace is vague to me.

So why not apply your definition of grace in layman's term?

Why not look at your definitions of grace, and mercy. The definition for mercy is all right, but you reword that definition and get a definition for grace. Wake up

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Why not look at your definitions of grace, and mercy. The definition for mercy is all right, but you reword that definition and get a definition for grace. Wake up

Mercy is not going to Hell as in NOT getting what you deserve.

Grace is going to Heaven as in GETTING what you do NOT deserve.

Mercy and grace are tied together, but I see them as separate because of the difference that can be seen in how it is applied.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Grace is that which God gives us that we do Not deserve. Because we have all sinned and the wages / penalty/ is death. But the Grace / Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mercy could be defined likewise. We don't deserve God's mercy, but He gives it Anyway.

Thanks for sharing. I understand that they are tied together, but in application, I can see the difference between the 2 for why mercy and grace is not exactly the same in relation to the Good News but they are found together in the Good News.

 

[Bendito]

ven

Mercy is not going to Hell as in NOT getting what you deserve.

Grace is going to Heaven as in GETTING what you do NOT deserve.

Mercy and grace are tied together, but I see them as separate because of the difference that can be seen in how it is applied.

Thats the same thing...There is no other place to go! If you do not go to heaven you go to hell. If you do not go to hell, you go to heaven. All you did was reword the ssame statement. In other words, you're blowing wind here. And you do not know the difference between grace and mercy. I've told you the difference, If you don't want it, fine. We can go on to discuss other things.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Does any one here still believes that ALL saved believers are going to be taken at the rapture event or what? Jesus says no.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

The warning here is that not every one professing Him will be found abiding in Him when He comes as any work of iniquity is the same as denying Him verbally.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Jesus is not saying they are not saved, but because they were workers of iniquity which by that iniquity is denying Him for why He denies them and disqualifies them from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven when the Bridegroom comes.

They are still saved because even though saints deny Him and become former believers, He still abides for why even they are called to depart from iniquity too before the Bridegroom comes so that they too may inherit the "eternal glory" that comes with our salvation and that is to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor and to His glory.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Paul even gives an example of a former believer but nevertheless His seal remains on him or her.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Those who do not agree, then explain the scriptures shown in this post for why losing the rewards of crowns is not the only consequence for not running that race in looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[Sue D.]

You say No, Scripture says "yes". A lot of warning to heed. Make sure Of your salvation. Hearing is not especially accepting. I know people who know all about Christmas but don't believe in it / don't accept it. There's a Lot of 'head' knowledge 'out there', but not 'heart - acceptance' and That is what makes the difference.

A person Can say that they know God. Meaning they are aware Of God. But they don't believe In Him. They are aware of A god.

Some believe that only the really spiritual believers will be taken at the rapture. Kind of a partial rapture. But Scripture does Not say that. If our lives are Not showing the fruits of the Spirit, then we'd Better be taking a closer look. Other people will be observing our lives. I'd ask -- what constitutes a 'really spiritual' believer.

What IS being taught in our churches. Legalism or the Gospel unto salvation or.......?!

 

[Bendito]

You say No, Scripture says "yes". A lot of warning to heed. Make sure Of your salvation. Hearing is not especially accepting. I know people who know all about Christmas but don't believe in it / don't accept it. There's a Lot of 'head' knowledge 'out there', but not 'heart - acceptance' and That is what makes the difference.

A person Can say that they know God. Meaning they are aware Of God. But they don't believe In Him. They are aware of A god.

Some believe that only the really spiritual believers will be taken at the rapture. Kind of a partial rapture. But Scripture does Not say that. If our lives are Not showing the fruits of the Spirit, then we'd Better be taking a closer look. Other people will be observing our lives. I'd ask -- what constitutes a 'really spiritual' believer.

What IS being taught in our churches. Legalism or the Gospel unto salvation or.......?!

What is really being taught in the churches? I don't want to answer that.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

You say No, Scripture says "yes". A lot of warning to heed. Make sure Of your salvation. Hearing is not especially accepting. I know people who know all about Christmas but don't believe in it / don't accept it. There's a Lot of 'head' knowledge 'out there', but not 'heart - acceptance' and That is what makes the difference.

Unfortunately, you are not hearing me. When that foundation has been laid by Jesus Christ for simply believing in Him, salvation has been given. What the saved believer builds on that foundation will be judged. If that saved believer is not discipled in the word and goes off living life in sin as he or she pleases, wood, stubble, and hay will be on that foundation. In that day when their works are judged, all their works will be burned away, but they themselves shall be saved so as thru fire. If any body thinks that wood, stubble, and hay are not sins and iniquities, then check the following verses because they defile the temple of God for why physical death is the punishment for doing so, but remember verse 15 because they are still saved since that foundation cannot be removed.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. KJV

A person Can say that they know God. Meaning they are aware Of God. But they don't believe In Him. They are aware of A god.

Some believe that only the really spiritual believers will be taken at the rapture. Kind of a partial rapture. But Scripture does Not say that. If our lives are Not showing the fruits of the Spirit, then we'd Better be taking a closer look. Other people will be observing our lives. I'd ask -- what constitutes a 'really spiritual' believer.

What IS being taught in our churches. Legalism or the Gospel unto salvation or.......?!

You still have to explain the scripture in post # 295 about the consequence for saved believers for not running that race, as in, for not abiding in His words as His disciples. You do not get cut off unless you were a part of the vine in John 15:1-8 KJV This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from because they are the castaways that gets left behind for why Jesus has been given warnings to believers about in Luke 12:40-49 KJV and He even warned them not to love this life more than Him that they would not want to go when the Bridegroom comes in Luke 14:15-33 KJV and Luke 21:34-36 KJV That is the cost of discipleship; being ready to leave our lives and loved ones down here for the Marriage Supper in Heaven above.

 

[Dave M]

Unfortunately, you are not hearing me. When that foundation has been laid by Jesus Christ for simply believing in Him, salvation has been given. What the saved believer builds on that foundation will be judged. If that saved believer is not discipled in the word and goes off living life in sin as he or she pleases, wood, stubble, and hay will be on that foundation. In that day when their works are judged, all their works will be burned away, but they themselves shall be saved so as thru fire. If any body thinks that wood, stubble, and hay are not sins and iniquities, then check the following verses because they defile the temple of God for why physical death is the punishment for doing so, but remember verse 15 because they are still saved since that foundation cannot be removed.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. KJV



You still have to explain the scripture in post # 295 about the consequence for saved believers for not running that race, as in, for not abiding in His words as His disciples. You do not get cut off unless you were a part of the vine in John 15:1-8 KJV This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from because they are the castaways that gets left behind for why Jesus has been given warnings to believers about in Luke 12:40-49 KJV and He even warned them not to love this life more than Him that they would not want to go when the Bridegroom comes in Luke 14:15-33 KJV and Luke 21:34-36 KJV That is the cost of discipleship; being ready to leave our lives and loved ones down here for the Marriage Supper in Heaven above.

so basicly your saying you can be a carnal christian and be saved?? in other words you can live a life of sin and be saved? I do appreciate your scripture and well thought out study. but I have to ask what this scripture says about that.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And then we have

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


To me saying you believe in Jesus with out evidence of a new life might very well be just lip service, if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying a born again person can be saved and continued to live a unchanged life they will just not receive rewards.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

so basicly your saying you can be a carnal christian and be saved?? in other words you can live a life of sin and be saved? I do appreciate your scripture and well thought out study. but I have to ask what this scripture says about that.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

There is no conflict, because you are not seeing the whole of scripture. If you note that the eternal glory that comes with our salvation ( 2 Timothy 2:10-13 KJV ) is to be that vessel unto honor in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 KJV ) with crowns ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 KJV ) to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven ( Luke 13:24-30 KJV & Luke 14:15-24 KJV ) where you will have a place ( a mansion ) in the City of God ( John 14:1-3 KJV ), that you will be like the angels that never die, then that is the inheritance at risk for not running that race. That is the risk of losing that "inheritance" in the Kingdom of God.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The difference from those saints left behind that is liken to the prodigal son that gave up his inheritance for wild living and can never get it back, but he is still son for the reason why God has to wipe the tears from their eyes because it is a damnation what they have lost and a miracle is needed to get them past that loss and past that weeping and gnashing of teeth? Obviously, they have a different kind of a resurrected body after the great tribulation where they can still die physically but are free to marry because death has parted them for why they are to marry again if they wish to set examples for the coming generations in the millennium reign in serving the King of kings from all over the world.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Discern that in light of the other scripture what I had underlined. The power of the second death is the lake of fire thereby sealing them forever from that consequence BUT they can still die the first death; the physical death.

There is a glorified celestial body as being part of the first fruit of the resurrection, and there is a glorified terrestrial body after the great tribulation for those left behind saints.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

This would explain why the tree of life in the City of God is for the healing of the nations, because the glorified terrestrial bodies will need that during the millennium reign, but once death and hell has been cast into the lake of fire, those with Him will have eternal life.

Hopefully, He has helped me to show yoy what I see in that what you say is true but only pertaining to the eternal glory that comes with our salvation and that is what at risk for not running that race as in abiding in Him as His disciples.

And then we have

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

To me saying you believe in Jesus with out evidence of a new life might very well be just lip service, if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying a born again person can be saved and continued to live a unchanged life they will just not receive rewards.

I believe the Book of 1 John is about reproving believers who thought sin was no longer sin any more and so if they sin, it is not sin for why John points to Jesus walking in the light as we are to also, for abiding in Him. It is because so many saved believers were saying they know Him and yet they abide in iniquity. That is why John puts those judgments out there for saved believers to know that they were not abiding in Him and not to follow after them. John made sure that he was not saying a saved believer could never sin, as if proving that he is not a saved believer when he written this.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That came after this rebuke to the ones he was reproving for thinking that way.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

That is why running that race by looking to Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin is how we abide in the fellowship of the Father & the Son as the Son's blood cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So John wanted to draw the line of discernment in that regards about saved believers walking in darkness thinking sin was no longer sin to them any more when sin is still sin in the eyes of the Lord for why we need Him to forgive us of our sins when we do sin, and to ask Him for help not to do that again as we walk in the light with Him daily in running that race for the high prize of our calling and that is to be received by the Bridegroom when He comes as firstfruits of the resurrection.