The Rapture

[SleepyEdwin]

Do you not know that the saints are the Church?
See you think the Church is mentioned after Revelation 4 , cause the word church isn't used, that is just another man's teaching
Heard that lie before to
So if the Church isn't in Revelations, when does the Church get caught up

NO WAY THAT CAN BE TRUE! You'd be comparing different covenants and changing Scriptures by treating them all as the same when the Lord NEVER said so!
Old Testament saints aren't part of the Church, they're Israel, God's Chosen People!
The Church with all of its saints are the Bride of the Lord!
The Tribulation saints are NOT part of the Church because they won't have qualified to become actual believers BEFORE the Tribulation begins!

We all are believers, yes, but the Church is not the same as Israel just as Israel is not the same as the Tribulation saints because both Israelites and Gentiles might still be saved (even if they end up being executed for believing in God.) Plus they would only believe in Him AFTER He begins punishing Israel for their unbelief during the last week!

Keep in mind the Church Age is a limited period of time of amazing Grace that will end when the Father says so!

One proof we all got that we don't play the same roles are that Israel will be judged by God and His 12 Apostles!

If God wanted to punish the Church during the Tribulation, He would have done so and mentioned it right away in Revelation during the pouring out of the Wrath of God, but He NEVER did!

Plus the 70 weeks are DECREED on ISRAEL and its holy city!! How many times will you ignore that fact stated in the book of Daniel?

 

[norapture]

NO WAY THAT CAN BE TRUE! You'd be comparing different covenants and changing Scriptures by treating them all as the same when the Lord NEVER said so!
Old Testament saints aren't part of the Church, they're Israel, God's Chosen People!
The Church with all of its saints are the Bride of the Lord!
The Tribulation saints are NOT part of the Church because they won't have qualified to become actual believers BEFORE the Tribulation begins!

We all are believers, yes, but the Church is not the same as Israel just as Israel is not the same as the Tribulation saints because both Israelites and Gentiles might still be saved (even if they end up being executed for believing in God.) Plus they would only believe in Him AFTER He begins punishing Israel for their unbelief during the last week!

Keep in mind the Church Age is a limited period of time of amazing Grace that will end when the Father says so!

One proof we all got that we don't play the same roles are that Israel will be judged by God and His 12 Apostles!

Have you never heard of the gospel, there is no difference between Jew and gentile
the first covenant was done away with, that the second could be established, and there is no 3rd cause the covenant Jesus made on the cross is a everlasting covenant

And far as old testament saints I never said they was the Church unless you think the old testament saints will be in the tribulation, which is impossible since they are the firstfruits unto God

 

[SleepyEdwin]

The New Covenant was offered to the Church, the Body of Christ, the group of believers that in our current age believe in Him and follow His footsteps! Don't try to extend it beyond its natural limits, being the end limit the moment Christ Himself catches up His Bride in the air! If you wanna say that one thing is the rapture and another is the Coming of Christ, that would be fine because in the former there is no full descent, while in the latter there is no one ascending but descending from Heaven to watch how the Lord returns to earth as the King. But the Tribulation saints are not the Church, they are the saints after the Church Age. On earth there will be no more Church but Israel and gentiles (the nations of the world) and the 144000 people from the 12 Tribes of Israel chosen by God. Daniel never mentions the Church, Revelation never states that the Church stayed on earth and was punished so don't place the Church where God didn't leave it.

 

[norapture]

Your last quote is used in a ridiculous way for we are not saying that He will be in Brussels or in the midst of the sea but we keep telling you what the Lord has already revealed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17! They clearly state He does not descend to earth but we believers will meet Him in the air!

Yes at the coming of the Lord we will meet him in the air.
Still waiting for you to post where Jesus said he was coming back before tribulation, since you believe that , surely you can show the scripture

 

[SleepyEdwin]

Yes at the coming of the Lord we will meet him in the air.
Still waiting for you to post where Jesus said he was coming back before tribulation, since you believe that , surely you can show the scripture

Are you gonna stop ignoring 1 Thessalonians 5:9 for starters? If we are not appointed for wrath, then how do you keep saying He ever promised us to leave us here on earth during the Tribulation? And don't tell us that the Apostle was speaking to the Jews or something that weird, because we all know he was addressing to the local church in Thessaloniki so what he told them was also valid for the rest of His Church.

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

And the hour of temptation is the Tribulation! So YES, the Lord Himself says the Church won't be among the world to endure His Wrath. You can't deny the meaning of "keep thee from" as a way to catch up His Bride and keep it safe from the Tribulation, the Wrath.

 

[norapture]

The New Covenant was offered to the Church, the Body of Christ, the group of believers that in our current age believe in Him and follow His footsteps! Don't try to extend it beyond its natural limits, being the end limit the moment Christ Himself catches up His Bride in the air! If you wanna say that one thing is the rapture and another is the Coming of Christ, that would be fine because in the former there is no full descent, while in the latter there is no one ascending but descending from Heaven to watch how the Lord returns to earth as the King. But the Tribulation saints are not the Church, they are the saints after the Church Age. On earth there will be no more Church but Israel and gentiles (the nations of the world) and the 144000 people from the 12 Tribes of Israel chosen by God. Daniel never mentions the Church, Revelation never states that the Church stayed on earth and was punished so don't place the Church where God didn't leave it.

Are you gonna stop ignoring 1 Thessalonians 5:9 for starters? If we are not appointed for wrath, then how do you keep saying He ever promised us to leave us here on earth during the Tribulation? And don't tell us that the Apostle was speaking to the Jews or something that weird, because we all know he was addressing to the local church in Thessaloniki so what he told them was also valid for the rest of His Church.

Do you think God is going to pour his wrath out on the saints that are here during the tribulation?
Or matter of fact any believer that is here during the tribulation
You would have to say yes he is , going to pour his wrath, cause you believe the Church couldn't be here and not get touched by him, you think God is so week that he can't control who his wrath falls on , but the true fact there will be plenty of God's people here, that will not get touched by his wrath , a number no man can number, or does God pours his wrath on them NO he dont, but many will have to suffer the wrath of the devil, so stop thinking your special , Christ suffered we shall also suffer, just like most believers , Steven was stoned to death are you better than him , James head got cut off are you any better than him, are you any better than the 2 witness in Revelations, matter fact are you any better that the millions that will die by the antchrist

Oh you mention Revelation 3:10
Well here is you a verse to think about st John 17:15 i pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world , but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil

Well Jesus prayed to the father that he would not take them out of the world ,so forget about getting rapture out before the tribulation

Then you mite say on he was talking only about the ones with him
So here is another verse for you St John 17:20. Neither pray I for these alone , but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

 

[SleepyEdwin]

Do you think God is going to pour his wrath out on the saints that are here during the tribulation?
Or matter of fact any believer that is here during the tribulation
You would have to say yes he is , going to pour his wrath, cause you believe the Church couldn't be here and not get touched by him, you think God is so week that he can't control who his wrath falls on , but the true fact there will be plenty of God's people here, that will not get touched by his wrath , a number no man can number, or does God pours his wrath on them NO he dont, but many will have to suffer the wrath of the devil, so stop thinking your special , Christ suffered we shall also suffer, just like most believers , Steven was stoned to death are you better than him , James head got cut off are you any better than him, are you any better than the 2 witness in Revelations, matter fact are you any better that the millions that will die by the antchrist

Keep this in mind: Nobody said that the Tribulation saints were sanctified from the very beginning of the Tribulation period, unless the 144000 are called and sealed by God, meaning they would be the only exception on earth. Still, there's no part that says that Tribulation saints are part of the 12 Tribes only so they can also be Gentiles! Even so that does not make them Church members aka believers in Christ during the Church Age because the last prophetic week would have started where the Lord judges Israel for their unbelief. Besides, you're the only one here calling Him weak, I never did nor Sue D. nor anybody but yourself.

The actual cause of death of all of the Tribulation saints seems to be the same: execution by the ungodly people on earth. The Lord clearly states He will demand the blood of the saints from the ungodly people.

We as believers might suffer while living on earth, yes, we will. The passages also say that not all of us will be deceased at the time of what we call the rapture and it was addressed to the Church, not to Jews like in the Old Testament. If Tribulation saints were the same as the Church, then it would make no distinction between both groups. In the OT believers were called saints, just like Tribulation saints. Take into account that when the Tribulation saints start arriving in Heaven, there are many people there. This would mean the Church has been there since the rapture so they will greet them at their arrival so to say.

[But Tribulations saints might still indirectly benefit from our rapture by being enlightened as to understand what happened to the Church when so many people disappeared. Even so I won't tell people this is very same paragraph is scriptural till I study Daniel and Revelation for the nth time to see whether or not we might take this in consideration here.]

There's also a need to understand this, the Church Age is different from any previous and later age, except for the Millennial Kingdom, because the Holy Spirit indwells in too many people living on earth. In OT times you can only find that n number of individuals enjoyed that kind of experience by acquiring knowledge and skills that were previously unknown to them, and that includes even Moses and Aaron!

Oh you mention Revelation 3:10
Well here is you a verse to think about st John 17:15 i pray not that thou shouldest not take them out of the world , but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil

You're not gonna convince anybody with that argument for it is NOT speaking of the believers during Tribulation but our current Church Age!

John 17:18 "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

There is one reason for the Lord to send us into the world, to preach the Gospel in this current era!

And there's even more!

John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

That also reveals that we as the Church will be with Christ for whatever the Son asks for, the Father will grant it unconditionally because His Beloved Son does His Father's Bidding!

 

[norapture]

Keep this in mind: Nobody said that the Tribulation saints were sanctified from the very beginning of the Tribulation period, unless the 144000 are called and sealed by God, meaning they would be the only exception on earth. Still, there's no part that says that Tribulation saints are part of the 12 Tribes only so they can also be Gentiles! Even so that does not make them Church members aka believers in Christ during the Church Age because the last prophetic week would have started where the Lord judges Israel for their unbelief. Besides, you're the only one here calling Him weak, I never did nor Sue D. nor anybody but yourself.

The actual cause of death of all of the Tribulation saints seems to be the same: execution by the ungodly people on earth. The Lord clearly states He will demand the blood of the saints from the ungodly people.

We as believers might suffer while living on earth, yes, we will. The passages also say that not all of us will be deceased at the time of what we call the rapture and it was addressed to the Church, not to Jews like in the Old Testament. If Tribulation saints were the same as the Church, then it would make no distinction between both groups. In the OT believers were called saints, just like Tribulation saints. Take into account that when the Tribulation saints start arriving in Heaven, there are many people there. This would mean the Church has been there since the rapture so they will greet them at their arrival so to say.

[But Tribulations saints might still indirectly benefit from our rapture by being enlightened as to understand what happened to the Church when so many people disappeared. Even so I won't tell people this is very same paragraph is scriptural till I study Daniel and Revelation for the nth time to see whether or not we might take this in consideration here.]

There's also a need to understand this, the Church Age is different from any previous and later age, except for the Millennial Kingdom, because the Holy Spirit indwells in too many people living on earth. In OT times you can only find that n number of individuals enjoyed that kind of experience by acquiring knowledge and skills that were previously unknown to them, and that includes even Moses and Aaron!


You're not gonna convince anybody with that argument for it is NOT speaking of the believers during Tribulation but our current Church Age!

John 17:18 "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

There is one reason for the Lord to send us into the world, to preach the Gospel in this current era!

And there's even more!

John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

That also reveals that we as the Church will be with Christ for whatever the Son asks for, the Father will grant it unconditionally because His Beloved Son does His Father's Bidding!

Im just curios what you believev on this who will live and reign with Christ a thousand years the Church or the saints that went through the tribulation or maybe both

By the way I'm not trying to win argument don't even consider this a argument

 

[SleepyEdwin]

By the way, you forgot to mention that the whole chapter 17 of the Gospel of John handles the Lord's prayer uttered BEFORE He had to leave us to ascend to Heaven and prepare us a place where we would dwell. So His request is about taking care of His Church that stays in the world while He is in Heaven (and the Holy Spirit had not descended to indwell the Apostles and the rest of the believers back then).

I do sustain that the Church and the Tribulation saints aren't the same group, still, it's evident that they both will be reunited in Christ first in Heaven and then in His Second Coming. Recall this, the Holy Spirit influences the world, as long as the Church has a strong influence in a nation, and it is proven by the Biblical fact that He is the One that prevents the antichrist from emerging as a powerful and deceitful world leader in the current Church Age. Sadly for those that are still unbelievers, the Spirit will be removed from the world when the Church leaves this place, and then the antichrist will go and forge a 7 year long covenant he will break after 3 and a half years. Since the Holy Spirit is still here indwelling believers nowadays, the antichrist has no authorization from God to go forth and fool Israel and the gentiles.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even so I will say this, if the Lord later reveals to us, once in Heaven with glorified bodies, that He will treat the Tribulation saints as part of the Church, I wouldn't complain at all, not even now that I'm in the flesh with my sinful nature still being a nuisance for my spiritual growth, for we all have to face our own flaws every so often. Why can I do that? Because we as the Church are called to love each other as Christ first loved us and we are all believers, even if we met the Lord under different circumstances due to the different covenants being enforced at some specific point in time.

 

[Iconoclast]

The rapture happens on the last day.jn6

 

[Sue D.]

The rapture happens on the last day.jn6

On the last day of What? Scripture says that No one knows when it will take place.

 

[Bill]

NO WAY THAT CAN BE TRUE! You'd be comparing different covenants and changing Scriptures by treating them all as the same when the Lord NEVER said so!
Old Testament saints aren't part of the Church, they're Israel, God's Chosen People!
The Church with all of its saints are the Bride of the Lord!
The Tribulation saints are NOT part of the Church because they won't have qualified to become actual believers BEFORE the Tribulation begins!

We all are believers, yes, but the Church is not the same as Israel just as Israel is not the same as the Tribulation saints because both Israelites and Gentiles might still be saved (even if they end up being executed for believing in God.) Plus they would only believe in Him AFTER He begins punishing Israel for their unbelief during the last week!

Keep in mind the Church Age is a limited period of time of amazing Grace that will end when the Father says so!

One proof we all got that we don't play the same roles are that Israel will be judged by God and His 12 Apostles!

If God wanted to punish the Church during the Tribulation, He would have done so and mentioned it right away in Revelation during the pouring out of the Wrath of God, but He NEVER did!

Plus the 70 weeks are DECREED on ISRAEL and its holy city!! How many times will you ignore that fact stated in the book of Daniel?

What does it take to be a saint, Enoch loved God, and God took him. The thief on the cross had compassion for Jesus, and Jesus took him to paradise.

We never casst out demons "when did we see you" The Lord replied, "when you fed the hungry, when you clothed the naked, when you did it for the least of these, you did it for me."

And they went with the King to Heaven.

 

[Bill]

Im going to let you guys play here, as i the Spirit has shown me this thread is going in a downward spiral. So enjoy yourselves. But i will not respond here

 

[Sue D.]

Enoch was in the Old Testament and yes, God 'took' him.

The thief on the cross acknowledged his need and that Jesus Christ was the son of God. And, so, they were in Paradise at the same time. Jesus Christ taking the righteous back with Him and thief was one of those that were taken up by Jesus Christ.

@Bill -- the subject of this thread is 'the Rapture' which is nothing to be 'playing about'.

 

[Iconoclast]

On the last day of What? Scripture says that No one knows when it will take place.

Hello Sue,
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Sue D.]

God the Father is the Only one who Knows when that 'last day' will take place.

 

[Iconoclast]

God the Father is the Only one who Knows when that 'last day' will take place.

Thats fine. But it will be the last day.

 

[SleepyEdwin]

Once again they love to ignore how many times He said He would spare us from the Hour of Temptation as it is written in Revelation 3:10. Can't you see He refers to the Rapture before the end of the world? At the last day or en el día postrero in Spanish and am letzten Tage in German refer to the day when He won't stand the world's sinful nature any longer. So then He will come in the air as a thunderbolt that crosses from the east to the west taking one of two people that are either working or sleeping as usual. Where in those quotes did He ever say He descended and stood on earth and caused an earthquake like the one that will divide and displace the Mount Olivet? Nope, He never did, because He is not talking about the damned that will only be revived after the Millennium has ended.

Don't forget He is speaking of a future event that still was far away, for the last generation that will be taken away alive, there won't be a need to wait till the Tribulation begins nor ends. Just read every single passage I have posted so far to confirm it. There's also a similar thread where you can find many passages on the very first page! Read them carefully!

Plus you got to know that those that deny the Pre Tribulation Rapture are the RCC and those that will become their allies for they created the post tribulation rapture theory only to justify themselves and their power monger nature that still persists! They can't understand that the Church was not called to be a second earthly Israel but a Heavenly Kingdom apart from the world and any human government!! We aren't called for exercising political dominion over nations while we are in the flesh, we are here to spread the Gospel and live godly lives! Our influence via the Holy Spirit's works are the way we can touch unbelievers' lives and see how they repent and accept the Lord Jesus as their Savior! If He ever wanted the Church to become the world's leader, He would have placed the Apostles in that position or He would have stayed here with us to become a King. Don't you agree with me? Then recall the passage where He told people to give Caesar what's Caesar's and God what's God's.

 

[Pipiripi]

An other BIBLICAL BOMB.

PAROUISA AND APOKALUPSIS

Those who believe in the rapture say that the Greek word "parouisa" refers to the secret coming of Jesus Christ with the rapturing of the church and that Greek word "apokalupsis" refers to the visible glorious coming of Jesus in power 7 years later. So they believe from this Greek words

 

[Sue D.]

So -- what are You trying to say? Because the word 'rapture' isn't in Scripture -- but it Does mean an up-gathering.

I looked up both the words you listed.
"parouisa" -- #2 meaning is -- the coming - arrival--advent -- the future visible return from heaven of Jesus to raise the dead -- hold the last judgement, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God."

apokalupsis -- one of three meanings -- manifestation , appearance.

A person can find this by Googling the two Greek words.

And a person Does realize that not everything in Greek / Hebrew/ Armaic language Can be translated word by word exactly in any other language.

Or are you agreeing with those who Do use those words in one of their various meanings Are correct.

The activity Of the rapture is described briefly in two passages. One person being taken and the other left. And the passage that describes what's going to happen somewhere in Thessalonians. The dead in Christ rising 1st and then those of us alive at that time will go up after that. A trumpet-like sound and then 'we' will meet Jesus Christ in the air. In the twinkling of an eye.

The second coming happens later when Christ actually Does stand on the earth and stays here for those 1,000 yrs. And after a few More activities -- eternity will begin.