The Rapture

[Hekuran]

Let me be clear. I don't believe that scripture teaches rapture. The handful of passages that are referred to in defence of this theory are misinterpreted.

But I don't have a problem with people who hold a different view to me on this matter. It's not the kind of thing I'd base fellowship or friendship on.

On the other hand, people who say that their view is right, and anyone who takes a contrary position on this matter is unsaved / a heretic or a false teacher are in grave error. It is a serious enough issue that it ought not be overlooked.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Hekuran -- Oh, so those passages are misinterpreted -- how convenient. So - what are they Really saying. And what Other important passages have Also been misinterpreted. Did Jesus Christ Really actually die on the cross -- or was He simply unconscious and taken down and revived after those three days.

Almost sounds like people on either side or the other about Calvinism / Armenianism -- or most any other Biblical subject. Or like KJV onlyism / NAS onlyism. There are those who'd say that a person isn't really saved unless a person is using a KJV Bible to bring them to Christ. And C/A are but two men who have different views of Scripture. On another forum --the thought was that if a person isn't a Calvinist, they aren't really Christians.

There Are certain Biblical teachings that teaching contrary to them Would be teaching error / heresy. And one of those would be that of the virgin birth of Jesus.

And, the rapture of the Church. It IS an important belief.

As is the 'speculation' about the 1,000 yr reign of Jesus Christ. Because there Are those who believe that 'a thousand days are as one day and one day as a thousand years' -- which would suggest that Jesus Christ will stand on the Mt. Of Olives but it will only be standing for that moment in time.

And there are lots of incidences in the Old Testament that are not taken seriously. The world-wide flood for one. And the parting of the Red Sea so that the Israelites could cross on dry ground. And Daniel in the den of lions or being in the firey furnace with his three friends. What's being misinterpreted or allegorized or whatever.

Okay -- I've been watching the hearings on Fox News concerning Bret Kavanough so I'm a bit rialed up about that. I'm a strong supporter of Kanavaugh. So This post is probably reflecting That.

 

[Hekuran]

The two key passages are in 1 Thessalonians and the gospel according to Matthew. I've written about Thessalonians already.

Matthew 24 is about judgement, not about transporting saints to glory

> But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus prophesies an event of the same type as the flood in Noah's day. Back then, people were getting on with their lives when suddenly God's judgement swept them away. Jesus warns his disciples to expect a similar act of judgement.

 

[Sue D.]

Hekuran -- the passage you quoted is about the rapture. The evil in the world before the Church is taken up will be comparable to that of Noah's day. However, God promised with the rainbow that He would never again destroy the world with a flood. He Has allowed areas of flooding -- earthquakes causing flooding / tsunamis. Hurricaines causing great deal of flooding. To get people's attention ?! Maybe. Organizations / some of them Christian organizations are out helping the victims with shelter, food, clothing. Sharing Gospel with them?! Hopefully.

The judgement you're talking about would be future during the seven years of tribulation yet to come.

But That passage says that no one knows the day or hour of 'it' happening. That is how the rapture is described.

 

[Hekuran]

I'm not saying Jesus was prophesying a flood. Rather, like the flood, the judgement will be swift, unexpected and devastating.

The 70ad destruction of Jerusalem had all these features.

 

[Sue D.]

So you're saying that the 70 weeks of Daniel are all complete? That there is no final 7 in the future?

 

[Sue D.]

Hekuran -- are you maybe an amillenialist?

 

[Hekuran]

Hekuran -- are you maybe an amillenialist?

I've never really got to grips with those eschatological jargon terms, I don't know the answer to that question. And I've not studied Daniel for a while, so won't venture an opinion there either.

I hope I've given a coherent reading of the Matthew and Thessalonians passages though.

 

[B-A-C]

So you're saying that the 70 weeks of Daniel are all complete? That there is no final 7 in the future?

There is a LOT more evidence that points to 3 1/2 years (even in Daniel) than the 70 weeks.

Jacob's troubles have very little to do with the tribulation.

Dan 9:24; "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
Dan 9:25; "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
Dan 9:26; "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27; "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

 

[B-A-C]

The 70ad destruction of Jerusalem had all these features.

Except there was no "mark" to be taken or hand or forehead.
No one was prevented from buying food.
There was no "beast" who died for three days and then came back to life.
There were no "two witnesses" martyred and brought back to life.
The abomination of desolation happening isn't mentioned at happening during this time by anyone, not even Jewish historians.

A third of the seas and river never turned into blood.
A third of the crops and grass were never burned up.

Finally, there is no point in history where Satan has been imprisoned for 1,000 years.

 

[B-A-C]

Let me be clear. I don't believe that scripture teaches rapture.

Rapture simply means "gather up". That's all. Nothing more... nothing less.
Now the timing of it could be debated, is it before, after or during? Does it happen at the same time as the second coming...
all those things have different meaning to different people. Who the elect are. Who will be beheaded for their faith.
Who are the people who refuse to take the mark?

But as far as does the Bible says Christians will be gathered up. I don't see how anyone can deny it.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

This could be written as... "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL RAPTURE His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Again, this could be written as... Then we who are alive and remain will be raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

No the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible. But it just means caught up/gathered up.
Now are those two passage about different events at different times? maybe, but they still happen.

 

[Sue D.]

The word 'trinity' isn't in the Bible, either. But the 'Godhead' is one time. But the first mention Of the trinity is in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let 'Us' make man in 'Our' image , in 'Our' likeness......"

It is described as God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit. As in Matthew 28:19-20 -- The Great Commission -- baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Just thought I'd add that.

 

[Sue D.]

I've never really got to grips with those eschatological jargon terms, I don't know the answer to that question. And I've not studied Daniel for a while, so won't venture an opinion there either.

I hope I've given a coherent reading of the Matthew and Thessalonians passages though.

An amillenialist doesn't believe there will be a millenial reign of Christ on earth. That He will only be here long enough to take believers to heaven with Him. And I'm thinking that they believe that Christ is Now reigning in heaven rather than being here to reign.

It sounded like you don't believe there's a 7-yr period of 'tribulation' still coming. And there are those who believe that Because Christians are promised to have troubles , tribulation all the time simply because we Are believers , that they don't make any distinction between a life of tribulation and the future 7 yrs Of tribulation. There will be a time when God deals specifically with the non-believing Jews -- when the 'Church"(born-again believers) won't be here.

Maybe that helps some?!

 

[Hekuran]

OK.

Rapture simply means "gather up". That's all. Nothing more... nothing less.
Now the timing of it could be debated, is it before, after or during? Does it happen at the same time as the second coming...
all those things have different meaning to different people. Who the elect are. Who will be beheaded for their faith.
Who are the people who refuse to take the mark?

But as far as does the Bible says Christians will be gathered up. I don't see how anyone can deny it.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

This could be written as... "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL RAPTURE His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Again, this could be written as... Then we who are alive and remain will be raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

No the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible. But it just means caught up/gathered up.
Now are those two passage about different events at different times? maybe, but they still happen.

Yes. As I said, I've already explained my understanding of this passage.

 

[Hekuran]

An amillenialist doesn't believe there will be a millenial reign of Christ on earth. That He will only be here long enough to take believers to heaven with Him. And I'm thinking that they believe that Christ is Now reigning in heaven rather than being here to reign.

It sounded like you don't believe there's a 7-yr period of 'tribulation' still coming. And there are those who believe that Because Christians are promised to have troubles , tribulation all the time simply because we Are believers , that they don't make any distinction between a life of tribulation and the future 7 yrs Of tribulation. There will be a time when God deals specifically with the non-believing Jews -- when the 'Church"(born-again believers) won't be here.

Maybe that helps some?!

My understanding is that God's purpose is not to take us to heaven, but to redeem and restore us together with the whole of creation. That's why the resurrection is central to the gospel.

 

[Curtis]

The catching away (rapture) of the saints is called, "That Blessed Hope"

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The second coming of Jesus would not be called that blessed hope unless you think getting your head cut off as being blessed!

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here is "That Blessed Hope"

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Sue D.]

Isn't the reason for believers to Be raptured up to be with Christ is so that we can be united With Him as His bride -- the Church- in heaven during the time of the 7- year tribulation period.

Curtis -- all through history and even presently -- there have been people martyred because of their faith in Jesus Christ. And Scripture says that they are waiting for Christ to return.

During the tribulation period , there will be multitudes more people accepting Christ as Savior and dying for it.

The second coming of Jesus is the beginning of His 1,000 yr reign on earth. Peacefulness on this earth Would be a blessed change from Now.

Apparently there Will be a great deal of destruction -- and/ or loss of life during those 7 yrs. So I don't know how to reconcile That to beautiful surroundings / peacefulness of those 1,000 yrs. But - then again -- except for Before the flood, no one has lived more than 90 - 100 years or so. I've gotten the impression that the earths' population will grow quickly because people will again live for hundred's of years. Like when Adam and Eve were here.

And we Also have the blessed hope of heaven -- the New Jerusalem being brought down from heaven by God.

 

[Sue D.]

My understanding is that God's purpose is not to take us to heaven, but to redeem and restore us together with the whole of creation. That's why the resurrection is central to the gospel.

Well -- what about the marriage super of the Lamb? That's going to take place in heaven. How will believers be able to take part in it if 'we' aren't up there?

 

[Hekuran]

That's described in Revelations 19. But there's no location specified. I can't think of any passage in the book of Revelation that indicates the people of God being transported to heaven.

 

[Sue D.]

You're right -- in the book of Revelation there isn't any passage like that. It's found in other passages. For instance, the time of the rapture of the Church Up to heaven which is found in 1 Thessalonians 4 passage.

Some portions of Revelation are telling what will be happening on earth and some are telling what will happen up in heaven.