The Rapture

[Hekuran]

this is really good @Hekuran thanks for posting it I am curios of your belief as far as Pretrib rapture or when you think it will happen??

In the new Testament future hope is always expressed in terms of Christ returning in glory and in the resurrection from the dead. The passages used to talk about rapture are badly interpreted, and the overall idea runs counter to the thought of the rest of Scripture.

I don't believe the church will be removed. I am looking forward to the time when Christ will come and reign in glory.

 

[Lacawar]

Darby and Ribera: created Dispensationalism - Pre Tribulation Doctrine - Secret Rapture.
None of which is in scripture!

It's evident that their false teachings still exist today and are still deceiving people.
CHRIST warned us:
Luke 21:8
[8]And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Matthew 24:4-5,11
[4]And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5]For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[11]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 

[Sue D.]

Lacawar -- you are certainly free to believe what ever you want to.

And, yes, there Are false teachers 'out there'. The false teachings would pertain to who Jesus Christ is and the cross of calvary. Salvation by grace - through faith -- Not including good works on our part.

Salvation through Jesus Christ and no other name. That we go directly to God through Jesus Christ and No Human being.

There Are definitely different opinions gleaned From Scripture -- one is Calvinism vs Armenianism. Another one is any potential gap between Genesis 1:1 and 2. (young earth compared to old earth).

All that Dispensationalism is trying to do is organize Scripture. And there Is the 'dispensation of Law' and then of Grace. And some people go 'overboard' in that area.

And there are those who feel strongly that Baptism is required for salvation and those who Don't. And that speaking in tongues is also part of salvation. And both Can be found in Scripture. But the conversion of the theif on the cross shows that neither of those things are part Of salvation. Baptism is highly recommended for After salvation. A public acknowledgment of the decision already having been made in a person's heart. And there Are those who Do speak in tongues. If the Holy Spirit Gives a person that opportunity - fine, follow Biblical guidelines. If not, don't.

Scripture Does warn about not taking any part of Scripture Out -- if 'we' don't like a particular teaching we are Not to 'print a Bible without that section included' Or add To Scripture with other people's writings.

If someone decided to start deleting portions -- we wouldn't have much of a Bible left.

 

[Lacawar]

If you're learning false doctrine and go out and teach false doctrine is that good works or not?

Holy Spirit gave me that question to ask! Thank you HOLY SPIRIT WA RAACH!

No baptism no kingdom:
Matthew 3:13,16
[13]Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
[16]And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

John 3:3,5
[3]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Mark 16:16
[16]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Hekuran]

We need to be honest with ourselves about our capacity to be comprehend the truth. All of us, I hope, strive to grasp the truth of scripture as fully and deeply as we are able. But none of us do it perfectly.

I would today disagree with quite a bit of what I believed 15 years ago, even though I was a sincere believer then. My guess is that in 15 years time, I'll look back, knowing that I've matured and have a better understanding of things than I do now.

Not everything that's wrong is false doctrine. I'm convinced in my own mind that the teaching around the rapture is misdirected and unhelpful. But unless someone's entire faith outlook is centred on this teaching, it's not 'false teaching' or 'false doctrine' in the New Testament sense.

 

[Lacawar]

If your not teaching this:
Matthew 24:29-31
[29]Immediately (after) the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you're not teaching this
Then it's false doctrine.

The Lord says:
Colossians 2:8
[8]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The LORD teaches us how to get Understanding from scriptures:
Isaiah 28:10
[10]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Proverbs 4:7
[7]Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

We are under CHRIST to get Understanding in Truth!

 

[Dave M]

We need to be honest with ourselves about our capacity to be comprehend the truth. All of us, I hope, strive to grasp the truth of scripture as fully and deeply as we are able. But none of us do it perfectly.

I would today disagree with quite a bit of what I believed 15 years ago, even though I was a sincere believer then. My guess is that in 15 years time, I'll look back, knowing that I've matured and have a better understanding of things than I do now.

Not everything that's wrong is false doctrine. I'm convinced in my own mind that the teaching around the rapture is misdirected and unhelpful. But unless someone's entire faith outlook is centred on this teaching, it's not 'false teaching' or 'false doctrine' in the New Testament sense.

Best post I have seen on here in a long time humble and truthful God bless you brother

 

[Lacawar]

All praises to the MOST HIGH, Bless you Brother!

 

[Sue D.]

If you're learning false doctrine and go out and teach false doctrine is that good works or not?

Holy Spirit gave me that question to ask! Thank you HOLY SPIRIT WA RAACH!

No baptism no kingdom:
Matthew 3:13,16
[13]Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
[16]And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

John 3:3,5
[3]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Mark 16:16
[16]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I would like to comment about your very first sentence --

"If you'e learning false doctrine and go out and teach false doctrine, is that good works or not?"

There Are groups that encourage their people to do exactly that -- door to door in an effort to earn their salvation - or to gain their special place in heaven. And That would be a 'good work'. And some of those groups Are teaching false doctrines.
And those people Would be going a 'good work' for absolutely No salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9. For by grace a person is saved through faith....... not of yourselves, not of works.
A person can be teaching all sorts of Good things , but if their intention is to gain their way to heaven, they are Wrong. Their teachings might be right on track. but their Motive for teaching is Wrong.

 

[Ivar]

All praises to the Heavenly Father that back in the days of Pharaoh; When Joseph interpreted his dream; He did not say to himself " I am one of the children of promise. I don't have to worry about this 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine business. I will be raptured".
Fast forward to today and you have Gentile who have been grafted in and there time has not been fulfilled "meaning they are in the 7 years of plenty" and expecting to be rapture from the 7 years of struggle. They think they going to be caught up like Enoch or Elijad "who had many great works by the way"
The Most Loved man of the Bible "Christ" was not raptured from the 40 days of trials and tribulations in the wilderness, neither from the hanging.

 

[Sue D.]

Ivar -- It's the Church of Jesus Christ that Will be raptured up in the future. The Church didn't exist in the Old Testament. It Did come to exist after the resurrection.

The Church is Not Israel.

Actually Jesus Christ was Not the most loved man in the Bible -- He was despised as the Isaiah 53 passages says. John 3:16 says that "For God so loved the world, that He gave His Only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth in Him won't perish but have everlasting life."

And Why would Jesus Christ have been raptured up in the New Testament or Any time.

He was crucified on the cross. He was nailed to the cross. After He rose from the dead, He was on this earth for 40 days and then ascended back Up to heaven -- seated at the right hand of God the Father.

It's Jesus Christ who will gather up / rapture up His Church. And Then there will be 7 years of tribulation. Mid-way through That time -- the last 3 1/2 yrs will be the Great Tribulation.

Back in the days of Pharoah and Joseph interpreted his dream, Joseph was in a position of being able to have the people store up extra grain from those 7 years of plenty in order to have grain during those years of famine.
God had put him in a position to be able to save the people in the surrounding lands -- including where his family / brothers lived/ from starvation.

I'm a Gentile -- I'm not expecting to be raptured up because of any works that I have done -- it's only because I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. That makes me part of the Church, just as everyone is who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, is part of the Church and will be raptured up and meet Jesus Christ in the air.

And after That happens -- about 7 years after -- Jesus Christ Will come back to this earth -- He will be here reigning / ruling for 1,000 yrs. And those who were raptured up earlier Will be with Him.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus spoke using "monosyllabic" words, which means "very easy to understand." The scriptures were written to mostly "slaves" who had no education, and had little understanding of words. The Bible was NOT written for professors, or highly educated people. Jesus said to his father, "father, I thank that you have hidden these things from the wise, and learned, and revealed them unto babes" (Matt 11:25) Anyone who has been enlightened by the Word of God that gives it's light as it enters the human heart can easily see the "rapture" in scriptures. If not then the light that is in them is darkness which it;s purpose is to blind the heart from seeing the truth. As Jesus once said......

Luke 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

 

[Hekuran]

Jesus spoke using "monosyllabic" words, which means "very easy to understand." The scriptures were written to mostly "slaves" who had no education, and had little understanding of words. The Bible was NOT written for professors, or highly educated people. Jesus said to his father, "father, I thank that you have hidden these things from the wise, and learned, and revealed them unto babes" (Matt 11:25) Anyone who has been enlightened by the Word of God that gives it's light as it enters the human heart can easily see the "rapture" in scriptures. If not then the light that is in them is darkness which it;s purpose is to blind the heart from seeing the truth. As Jesus once said......

Luke 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

I take it from this that you believe people who do not accept your view of the rapture do not have the word of God in them - they do not belong to Christ.

 

[Curtis]

I take it from this that you believe people who do not accept your view of the rapture do not have the word of God in them - they do not belong to Christ.

I don't have a "personal" view of scriptures, the scriptures are my view.

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.
#1 A church is a gathering of people
The church of Christ is a gathering of the promised seed and those that cleave unto them.
So yes the church is Israel and those that cleave unto Israel.

#2 I am not aware of any person more loved than Christ to the Heavenly Father. I am not aware of any person loved more than Christ when it comes to the Heavenly Hosts. The people who despised Christ are irrelevant because whether the rapture is true or not it would be the Heavenly Father or his hosts that do said "rapturing". That was my angle.

#3 I was making a correlation. I just find it interesting that their is nothing new under the son and the Creator is known for allowing trials and tribulations but people are expecting to be raptured.

#4 My works are the actions I do based on my love for Christ. If my love is lacking in the end I would more than likely expect my name to be blotted out the book of life. That's just me though. My assessment is that many of us believe in the context of acknowledge Christ however even the Devil believes or acknowledges Christ. I can imagine it may not be a pretty picture for those of us that do not turn back or abide in Christ. Turning Back or Abiding in Christ do consist of living or perfect faith. I try to avoid the term works or accountability when speaking to other believers because I know they get triggered.

If the rapture is true then if all is well with me and I am alive i should be good however if all is not well with me then not good.
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

[Curtis]

The Bible is filled with stories of people, and priests blowing trumpets. Trumpets were used as a signal for the start or end of certain traditions. In the Book of Revelations seven angels blow seven trumpets to signify certain times in which God would pour out his wrath upon the earth, and its inhabitants. A trumpet will also be used to signal the beginning of Christ's millennium Kingdom here on earth.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh ANGEL BLEW HIS TRUMPET, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

Men blow trumpets, angels blow trumpets, priests blow trumpets, and also God himself has a trumpet. God's trumpet is not a musical horn, or instrument at all, it is his actual voice. When the Apostle John heard Jesus's voice in the book of Revelations he said it sounded like a trumpet....

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me A GREAT VOICE, AS OF A TRUMPET,

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I HEARD WAS AS IT WERE OF A TRUMPET talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Jesus raised up Lazarus from the dead with the sound of his voice!! (John 11:43)

There is a day coming in which all the dead in Christ will hear this same voice, and be raised from the dead, and all those who are still alive in Christ will be caught up in the air to be forever with the Lord!!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jesus is NOT a archangel, but he is the “HEAD” of ALL principalities, and powers. The word “archangel” refers a person who is “chief, first, and also it means a messenger” Jesus is known as the “Angel of the Lord” or simply “the messenger of God” There will NOT be a “trumpet” as a horn that will raise the dead, it will be the voice of Jesus Christ himself. Jesus even tells us this.....

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE,
John 5:29 AND SHALL COME FORTH; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The “trump of God” is the “voice of God”!!!

The first time God's voice sounded like a trumpet blast on earth was when God spoke to Moses on mount Sinai.

Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and THE VOICE OF THE TRUMPET EXCEEDING LOUD; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exo 19:19 And when the VOICE OF THE TRUMPET SOUNDED LONG, AND WAXED LOUDER and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
Heb 12:26 At that time HIS VOICE SHOOK THE EARTH, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."

The “LAST TRUMP” will happen at the catching away of the Church when Jesus shouts with the “voice” of a archangel which is the “voice of God”, and God's trump" Oh happy day!!!

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Sue D.]

@Sue D.
#1 A church is a gathering of people
The church of Christ is a gathering of the promised seed and those that cleave unto them.
So yes the church is Israel and those that cleave unto Israel.

#2 I am not aware of any person more loved than Christ to the Heavenly Father. I am not aware of any person loved more than Christ when it comes to the Heavenly Hosts. The people who despised Christ are irrelevant because whether the rapture is true or not it would be the Heavenly Father or his hosts that do said "rapturing". That was my angle.

#3 I was making a correlation. I just find it interesting that their is nothing new under the son and the Creator is known for allowing trials and tribulations but people are expecting to be raptured.

#4 My works are the actions I do based on my love for Christ. If my love is lacking in the end I would more than likely expect my name to be blotted out the book of life. That's just me though. My assessment is that many of us believe in the context of acknowledge Christ however even the Devil believes or acknowledges Christ. I can imagine it may not be a pretty picture for those of us that do not turn back or abide in Christ. Turning Back or Abiding in Christ do consist of living or perfect faith. I try to avoid the term works or accountability when speaking to other believers because I know they get triggered.

If the rapture is true then if all is well with me and I am alive i should be good however if all is not well with me then not good.
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

# 1 -- a church / small 'c' / is a building where people meet to worship God. The Church / "C" capital 'c' / are all those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Personal Savior -- the Holy Spirit is , therefore , indwelling them - 'they' are the Church of Jesus Christ.

#2 -- Isaiah 53:3 "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Very relevant since they are the one's who wanted to crucify Christ -- Even though His crucifixion was prophesied -- was meant to happen. Then again His life was not Taken -- He Gave His Life for us.

#3 -- Believers are told to expect trials and tribulations -- because the world 'hates' us. But -- we Grow spiritually as we Do under go trials and problems (tribulations). And, yes, Christ Will take born-again believers up to be with Him. And Then He will deal directly with unbelieving Jews especially.

#4 -- Maybe we Should use the term 'works' because there is a tendency to want to help God / Jesus Christ with our salvation. There are those who believe that the 'finished work of Christ on the cross, wasn't really enough'. But God's Word says that "our righteousness' is like dirty rags to Him. Ephesians 2 -- Not of works because 'we' would have a tendency to boast about the good things we've done.

We Are accountable to God for our words / actions.

AFTER our salvation -- we Should want to do things to please God. The term 'good works' Tends to indicate those things people want to do to earn their salvation. And Lots of people do Lots of good things during their lives. But those things won't make a place for them in heaven.

Your passage in Genesis 4:7 -- the Lord is talking to Cain -- asking him why he is angry -- Abel kept flocks and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time, Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord favored Abels offering of part of his flock. Animal offering was pleasing. Cain was angry that the Lord would not accept the results of what he'd taken time to plant and cultivate.

So you're suggesting that --- I'm not sure What you're suggesting. Unless you're saying that 'good works' will allow a person to be raptured up. Haven't we already established that 'good works' have no part in salvation. And only those saved will be raptured up?!.

 

[Hekuran]

I don't have a "personal" view of scriptures, the scriptures are my view.

That's an arrogant and thoughtless response. First, I didn't ask about your personal view of scripture, and second, of course you have a personal view of scripture. It is determined by the culture you were brought up in, the other Christians you fellowship with, your personal experience of life and prayer and worship, and your own personality.

When any of us - yourself included - reads in scripture a word like 'saved' or 'justified', our understanding is shaped by hundreds of years of teaching and thinking about the scripture. You may not be aware of it, but you certainly have a personal view of scripture.

It is part of Christian maturity to recognise this, and to seek to have our thoughts, motivations and attitudes shaped by the word of God, rather than unwittingly allow our preferences to shape our understanding of the Word.

And you didn't respond to my first observation.

 

[Curtis]

It is part of Christian maturity to recognise this, and to seek to have our thoughts, motivations and attitudes shaped by the word of God, rather than unwittingly allow our preferences to shape our understanding of the Word.

You actually said something true. Like I said I don't have any "personal" view of scripture, the scriptures are my view! On top of that, I don't care what you think about me, because if I did I would not be a servant of Christ. (Gal 1:10)

 

[Sue D.]

Hekuran -- realizing that your comments are for Curtis -- he and I seem to think a lot alike. I'm going to insert my thoughts here as well as whatever he responds with.

I don't understand Why you would say that his comment is arrogant and thoughtless. When he stated that the Scriptures are his view and that he doesn't have a personal view of Scripture.

The words 'saved' and 'justified' are very important in God's Word. Scripture is about everyone's ability / opportunity to have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. God Wants to be our Heavenly Father.

And, yes, each person comes from a particular culture, the people, Christians who we fellowship with, our experiences in life, our own personalities. And that is Part of the reason we are told to be careful who we associate with. Each person is known by the company we keep -- Pick our friends carefully. If a person is born into a Muslim culture for instance, their view of God's Word is going to be Very different from someone born into a Christian culture in which the Bible is considered God's Word rather than the Quran. Allah instead of God. God instead of Allah. But no one is unreachable when it comes to being able to be 'saved'. And there are lots of other belief systems a person can be born into. And even being born into a family of born-again believers does Not automatically make a person a born-again believer. It's a personal decision. No one inherits salvation.

You had been upset because of his view of the rapture. Referring back to post #112 -- you'll notice there's a 'like' beside the big heart at the lower left corner. That was from me. I happen to agree with him. I might not have stated it quite that strongly, but he's right. The rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ are two distinctly different events and they will both happen. And there is Scripture for both. And a person's being taken up in the rapture Is based on their personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

There are those who feel that it's very presumptuous for a person to be confident of their salvation. Because lots of people base their salvation on their good works in addition To the cross. Meaning that the cross Did occur , but also that our good works are needed , but that no one can Really know that they are going to be in heaven until we get there. No sense of eternal security. God's Word teaches both the sufficiency of God's grace / the blood of Christ on the cross / And the fact that immediately upon a person's heart believe and confession of our personal belief the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person -- keeps them 'safe' until we are actually With Jesus Christ.

We pray / talk with God through our mediator -- Jesus Christ. A person recognized their need For salvation through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. We 'accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died on the cross and rose again bodily and that That is all that is necessary -- He took our sins upon Himself -- died with them -- in our place. Went to hell and back in our place -- for us. Our sins are forgiven -- and a person will feel an inner sense of peace -- it's Wonderful. that inner peace. Knowing that God has heard our prayer and has forgiven us. And the person's life will be exhibiting the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, etc.

And there are those who don't like OSAS -- they feel that it gives a person license to sin. But it certainly does not. The Holy Spirit's indwelling 'us' changes us - our desires. We're not going to be going around 'sinning' on purpose because we know that Now we won't have to worry about ending up in hell as a result. That very attitude would indicate that a person hasn't actually accepted Jesus Christ As their savior. OR it would mean that someone simply had someone pray a prayer without knowing / understanding what / why they were praying. Or the person has walked down an aisle -- prayed a prayer, signed a card, given some literature and 'you are now saved'. And in reality nothing has happened in that person's heart. That's why there isn't a change being observed. SO -- if / when we observe that in a person -- take time to lovingly and in a concerned attitude talk to that person in private and express genuine concern for their salvation and future home in heaven. That way -- the person can really experience salvation and that would be the goal. Their salvation and inner peace and concern for others and in turn sharing Gospel unto salvation with Another person.