Trinity

[Christ4Ever]

That is the obvious conclusion based on Deut. 18:16. Israelites built the tabernacle under God's direct instruction and worshipped him properly. Before that, in their mind God was a golden calf, and then God as an all consuming fire scared them off, I don't see either as proper worship. And if you ask what I mean by "proper worship", go to Gen. 4, where Abel worshipped God properly, Cain worshipped God improperly.

Obvious, then it leaves me to wonder why you wrote what you did. See below. (shrug)

God as an all consuming fire cannot be worshipped,

Unless you are saying that God as Jesus Christ can be worshipped because, His being part of the Godhead, it is acceptable and right to do because He is in the flesh.

"Love" and "worship" themselves doen't mean anything, you dont love "love", you don't worship "worship", that's unintelligent jibberish. What matters is the object which you love and worship. If you don't know what that is, then you're doomed to love and worship a golden calf like the Israelites did.

Then rewrite you sentences, so that they aren't "jibberish", and you won't be doomed to your own observation.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Garee]

Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy.
Mat 2:11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.


Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Mat 14:32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."

Mat 28:8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

God is not a temporary man as us a creation.

Matthew 2 speaks of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of the Father the unseen head of the government as Lord of lords spoken of Isaiah 53 The government is not empowered be son of man Jesus the temporal seen .

The law of interpretation below must be applied in order to rightly divide the parables

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Jesus the son of man is not eternal like all temporal bodies they return to the dust.

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Same with the Matthew 14 The lord did not give his prophet Jesus words to teach Thomas how to walk by sight .

He clearly used that ocasion to rebuke the father of lies .(be not faithless) and empower Thomas to trust God not seen .the confession that God did do the work
My Lord and my God.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[Garee]

Dear Searchingtoo,

We can play the strongs if you desire. How about g4352? Need to know the verses that are used for this to show Worship as well, and includes Jesus, Christ within its definition?
The point being and still stands even after your writing, that only God should be worshipped, yet Jesus was worshipped, and accepted the worship accorded to Him that belonged to God alone. To a Jew and if Jesus was only a man, this would be unacceptable to do, and would put into question His righteousness. Yet, it was done and accepted!

On Isaiah 9:6, you clearly understood what was being said. You can argue manuscripts, all you want, because I'm sure you don't only use the Septuagint! So, you will view it by the Manuscripts that affirm your doctrine, and I will use the ones that affirm my doctrine to be true. I am sure I will not convince you, and you won't convince me.

So, since you didn't actually answer my question posed to you, I will assume from your reply that you believe that these verses are speaking of Yeshua/Jesus.

Note: Since the site is Trinitarian, it might be best that you just move on to another site that is more accommodating to the doctrine you hold in this. That is if you can't help yourself in continuing on this line of promoting the doctrine you believe to be true.

Know that I end this as both a member, and a moderator.
As a member I would allow you to continue sprouting what you believe to be true, but as a moderator I must adhere to the standards in place for Talk Jesus.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
I would normally end this with YBIC, but clearly your Jesus is not my Jesus, so I would not insult you in calling you something you are not.
Nick
Moderator
\o/
<><
P.S. You can move on or let me know and I can ban you. The choice is yours. Oh, if for whatever reason you'd like to discuss this further, then you are welcome to PM me, but please don't discuss this in open forum. For it is not open for debate. Thank-you.

I would offer the kind of government spoken of Isaiah 9:6 is first spoken of in Genesis . . . the fall of the government of God. when God signified as a father saw pride in the heart of Lucifer the end of day 3. (three denotes the end of a matter throughout the bible. . from that first use.)

Note. . (Red ) the power of the lord of lords. King of kingdom of preists

Note. . .(Green) believers those having been freely given power to both hear and do what was heard..

Note. . (Brown) no power other than the false power of the god of this world . The father of lies the murder from Genesis beginning his murderous spree with born again Abel the first listed martyr sent with the gospel..

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The government of God two. One loving authority yoked with wiling submissiveness.

The promised three days and nights demonstration again promised or refreshed as another witness in Isaiah 53 The same government spoken of in Isaiah 9:6 The Father revealing the will of the sufferings of the heel and His power of strengthening the work. . . in the end crushing the head of the serpent the god of this world . .

Isaiah 53: 4-5 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

It was fulfilled at the beginning of that three days and nights demonstration in the garden of Gethsemane .The government fell in the garden of Eden . You could say a new beginning or restored order (government). The first century reformation.

There the Father began to pour out his wrath. . bruising the heel of Jesus .

Luke 22:40-46 And when he was at the place, (garden of gethsemane) he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.


Three times in the garden Jesus woke the disciples for support. . three times the father denied the son and put them to sleep in order to show the working of two in the government of peace .

Then when finished with the garden demonstration they moved to the hill a bloody demonstration to the world . the first was given as a promise of prophecy. (Genesis and Isaiah ) another kind of the same three days and nights work .Then last but not least the demonstration of the tomb.the demonstration of faith the hidden things of God. or mysteries revealed.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I would offer the kind of government spoken of Isaiah 9:6 is first spoken of in Genesis . . . the fall of the government of God. when God signified as a father saw pride in the heart of Lucifer the end of day 3. (three denotes the end of a matter throughout the bible. . from that first use.)

Note. . (Red ) the power of the lord of lords. King of kingdom of preists

Note. . .(Green) believers those having been freely given power to both hear and do what was heard..

Note. . (Brown) no power other than the false power of the god of this world . The father of lies the murder from Genesis beginning his murderous spree with born again Abel the first listed martyr sent with the gospel..

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The government of God two. One loving authority yoked with wiling submissiveness.

The promised three days and nights demonstration again promised or refreshed as another witness in Isaiah 53 The same government spoken of in Isaiah 9:6 The Father revealing the will of the sufferings of the heel and His power of strengthening the work. . . in the end crushing the head of the serpent the god of this world . .

Isaiah 53: 4-5 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

It was fulfilled at the beginning of that three days and nights demonstration in the garden of Gethsemane .The government fell in the garden of Eden . You could say a new beginning or restored order (government). The first century reformation.

There the Father began to pour out his wrath. . bruising the heel of Jesus .

Luke 22:40-46 And when he was at the place, (garden of gethsemane) he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.


Three times in the garden Jesus woke the disciples for support. . three times the father denied the son and put them to sleep in order to show the working of two in the government of peace .

Then when finished with the garden demonstration they moved to the hill a bloody demonstration to the world . the first was given as a promise of prophecy. (Genesis and Isaiah ) another kind of the same three days and nights work .Then last but not least the demonstration of the tomb.the demonstration of faith the hidden things of God. or mysteries revealed.

Dear Garee,
You quoted the wrong message, and then didn't actually answer the question posed. 0-2

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Curtis]

God is not a temporary man as us a creation.

Joh 8:23 And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from My Father; for which of these do you stone Me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.

The Jews had no problem in recognizing who Jesus was claiming to be.

 

[Waggles]

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isaiah 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.
Isaiah 48:16 Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.
Isa 48:17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

 

[Waggles]

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favour, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;
3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.

Luke 4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour.”
20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

 

[Waggles]

The must read book by the eminent JEWISH scholar Alan F. Segal on the "problem" of there being references to two YHWH in the Old Testament
'Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism'
by Alan F. Segal

In his now classic Two Powers in Heaven, Alan Segal examines rabbinic evidence about early manifestations of the ""two powers"" heresy within Judaism.
Segal sheds light upon the development of and relationships among early Christianity, Gnosticism, and Merkabah mysticism and demonstrates that belief in the ""two powers in heaven""
was widespread by the first century, and may have been a catalyst for the Jewish rejection of early Christianity.
An important addition to New Testament and Gnostic scholarship by this much revered scholar, Segal's Two Powers in Heaven is made available once again for a new generation.
> [my notes: two YHWH in rabbinical teaching would help explain why Pharisees could accept Jesus as God and why those that hated Jesus would expunge this rabbinic teaching]

Get it now - I paid $67AUS for my copy and I see it now going for $81 AUS

 

[Searchingtoo]

Dear Garee,
You quoted the wrong message, and then didn't actually answer the question posed. 0-2

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

Well at least we agree about Democrats, but I don't understand how most on here think either. So much of it seems like gibberish to me. Sorry, that's just how it is. The truth, nothing but the truth. This site has served it's purpose for me and vice versa I think. I think you and I could have a good conversation in person but these boards always seem to bring out the worst in people that claim to be Christians.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Unless you are saying that God as Jesus Christ can be worshipped because, His being part of the Godhead, it is acceptable and right to do because He is in the flesh.

Worship is in human nature, everyone worships consciously or subconsciously, but just because you worship a supreme being whom you think is God doesn't mean you're really worshipping God the eternal creator of the universe. God made man in God's image, man made god(s) in man's image. When we deal with abstract concepts or intangible things, we tend to put a name and a face on it to make it easier to process, that is also in human nature, and God knows that, communicating through Moses and all the other prophets is not enough. For this reason, He personally incarnated into a man that is Jesus and "dwelt among us", that was the plan since the very beginning, and through Jesus and ONLY through Jesus can God be worshipped properly.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Obvious, then it leaves me to wonder why you wrote what you did. See below. (shrug)

Quod scripsi, scripsi. Wildfire is all consuming, nobody worships that. You can catechize me in any way you want, the answer is still the same - Deut. 18:15-22, one of the most important passages that prophesize Jesus.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The must read book by the eminent JEWISH scholar Alan F. Segal on the "problem" of there being references to two YHWH in the Old Testament
'Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism'
by Alan F. Segal

In his now classic Two Powers in Heaven, Alan Segal examines rabbinic evidence about early manifestations of the ""two powers"" heresy within Judaism.
Segal sheds light upon the development of and relationships among early Christianity, Gnosticism, and Merkabah mysticism and demonstrates that belief in the ""two powers in heaven""
was widespread by the first century, and may have been a catalyst for the Jewish rejection of early Christianity.
An important addition to New Testament and Gnostic scholarship by this much revered scholar, Segal's Two Powers in Heaven is made available once again for a new generation.
> [my notes: two YHWH in rabbinical teaching would help explain why Pharisees could accept Jesus as God and why those that hated Jesus would expunge this rabbinic teaching]

Get it now - I paid $67AUS for my copy and I see it now going for $81 AUS

Anybody who're interested to read this, PM me with your email, I can get you one for free.

As for this claim itself, two powers in heaven doesn't necessarily mean two YHWHs in heaven. We all know that there're "spiritual hosts of wickedness in heaven", Eph. 6:12, that's what spiritual warfare is all about.

 

[Waggles]

doesn't necessarily mean two YHWHs in heaven

But the OT teaches us that there are two YHWH in Heaven.
Go back and read all my scripture posts and learn.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But the OT teaches us that there are two YHWH in Heaven.
Go back and read all my scripture posts and learn.

Yeah, there is such a vision in Dan. 7:13 -

I was watching in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.

That's the same scene of throne room in Rev. 5, also the reference in Matt. 26:64 where Jesus testified before the Sanhedrin, but that doesn't mean those are two separate powers. The following verses state that power and authority were given to the Son of Man; 7:22 prophesizes his second comning - as the Ancient of Days:

Until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgement was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the sants to possess the kingdom.

And if you compare the appearance of the Ancient of Days in Dan. 7:9-10 and the Son of Man in Rev. 1:13-15, they are almost identical. Therefore these are not two powers, but transfer of one power. God came the first time as the Son of Man, and he will come the second time as the Ancient of Days.

 

[Garee]

Joh 8:23 And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from My Father; for which of these do you stone Me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.

The Jews had no problem in recognizing who Jesus was claiming to be.

Yes many outward Jews "unconverted mankind" called a "evil a generation" trusted in their own dying flesh (what the eyes see),. The two building blocks of selfish ambition

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

I would say first things first. The word Jew as it is used must be defined .

Romans 2:27-29 King James Version And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


When Jesus the Son of man sent as a apostle prophesied by the Father . . . the word of God revealed its not what the eyes see (dying flesh of any nation) Many disciples that trusted their own flesh no longer followed they began looking for a new leader.

Peter who was given words as a prophet moved by God declared . . "to whom else could we go you have the words of the Father . . .eternal life ,

No such thing as flesh of eternal life.

John 6:59-63 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; (highly offence) who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I think it is still offending many in a hope God is a man as us. . .


A little . .Peek a Boo . .now you see me . . .now you do not. . . scared them off.


A Jew is a Jew inwardly . . not what the eyes see.

The Father promised in Isaiah and renamed his bride . . .Christian in Acts.. . a more befitting name. Literally meaning residents of the city of Christ .(not seen) with the human eye.

DNA is not needed to enter into fellowship with the word of God some thought it should be.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[Garee]

But the OT teaches us that there are two YHWH in Heaven.
Go back and read all my scripture posts and learn.

Where does that oral tradition you offered (two creators) find its foundation in the Bible ?

David reminds us in the Psalms. . What can those do the are following the light of the word if the very foundation of a doctrine is ignored.?

God does protect the integrity of it as it is writen

It would seem one Creator "God is light" opened His one mind and prophesied "let there be light" and the presence of God illuminated the universe. On day four finding false pride in lucifer day three. Christ the Holy Spirit created the two temporal time keepers . One as the source of light or power and the other to reflect the glory.

Not only can he create but is God light On the last day under the Sun he will again be the light.

Then there will be no darkness (night) forever and ever more.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Not only can he create but is God light On the last day under the Sun he will again be the light.

Then there will be no darkness (night) forever and ever more.

Yeah, when God said, "let there be light," it's not like he suddenly flipped a switch, he was ALREADY the source of light, and now the light shone upon the darkness and illuminated the earth.

 

[Curtis]

Yes many outward Jews "unconverted mankind" called a "evil a generation" trusted in their own dying flesh (what the eyes see),

Did Peter trust in his own flesh (his eyes) when confessing Jesus to be the Christ the Son of the living God?

Mat 16:15 He said to them, But who do you say I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven

Jesus Christ was still God whether in his physical body or not.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

 

[Curtis]

I think it is still offending many in a hope God is a man as us. . .

It was God's idea to create man in His own image and likeness not man's.

 

[Curtis]

DNA is not needed to enter into fellowship with the word of God some thought it should be.

You can not become a son of God if you were not born of a woman (water), and of the Spirit.