Trinity

[Searchingtoo]

Yes the only way it could make biblical sense is with God who is Spirit. The word was from God. He declared or prophesied "let there be" as the law of faith and as a labor of his love "it was good"

John 1 King James Version1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word of prophecy was with God, the same Word came from God.

God is Spirit. God is light. God is love. .

He is not alphabet soup. (words without meaning or direction.) Pentecostal soup .

​

I believe everything in the Bible taken in context and I never said there was no way it could make sense. You just quoted the same KJ verse that I did. Our friend Rhema was trying to say that any translation that said "the word was with God" should be thrown out. Then he turned around and said the only true translation was the KJV. I was merely pointing out to him that he would have to throw all translations out including KJ if that is what the thought since it also says that the "the word was with God".

The rest of what you wrote (alphabet soup, etc.) made no sense to me since it had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

 

[Rejoice evermore.]

I'm not going to go through every one of these with you but let's look a few to get a taste of what you put down:

The first one is 1 John 5:7 which is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600"s which means it's spurious, which means it was added at that time and not part of the original writings. In other words it should not be in any translation. It's false.

After looking at everything else you said I don't think I'll waste any more time with you on this. The rest of it has either been covered here already or it has nothing at all to do with the subject of this thread. Sorry.

It is to your shame, sir, that you see the Word of God (which was with God in the beginning) as a waste of time and thereby reject the counsel of God against yourself. Of a truth, he that is of God heareth God’s words: you therefore hear them not, because you are not of God. As it is written: A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Woe unto you!

 

[Waggles]

1Samuel 3:1 Now the boy Samuel was ministering to the LORD in the presence of Eli. And the word of the LORD was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision.
Vision = appearance as opposed to merely hearing
The word of the LORD was already appearing to people in the OT

 

[Garee]

Three is used to denote the end of a matter throughout all things writen in the law and the prophets (the word of God) as it is written

Two is the witness God spoke ."Let there be" the law and "it was good" the testimony.

Using the temporal things seen to reveal the eternal invisible .

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Therefore to the letter of the law represented by Moses and or with the prophets represented by Elias the power of the law (sola scriptura) If others speak not according using to that one word (hear and do) there is no light in their path

Two working as if one. The father empowering the Son.

Isaiah 8: 19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Another or companion witness that denies another teaching master other than the law and the prophets. . needed to commune with the dead for knowledge and false wisdom . Three times the Holy Spirit confirmed if mankind does not speak according to both (law of faith) as one .. . again they have no light.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.(worldly wisdom) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law (sola scriptura) to fail

Peter not walking in the light misunderstood its use. Again God uses three to denote the end of a matter

Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

In the above case the witness of three used to represent sola scripura the light of God's word.

 

[Rhema]

You said that they should throw out all bibles that translate John as "with God" and that the KJV was the superior translation.

WHAT ?!?!

You got the wrong guy, dude. I would NEVER say that the KJV was the superior translation. I consider it rather inferior.

(Time to update your scorecard...)

Thanks,
Rhema

Just admit when you are wrong unless you think you know more than all the Bible translators and bible scholars.

Uh... I am one...

 

[Rhema]

The first one is 1 John 5:7 which is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600"s which means it's spurious, which means it was added at that time and not part of the original writings. In other words it should not be in any translation. It's false.

Technically that would be 1522.

Although it is found in a 4th century Latin homily Liber Apologeticus, circa 385, and in the Vulgate after 800 AD.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Our friend Rhema was trying to say that any translation that said "the word was with God" should be thrown out. Then he turned around and said the only true translation was the KJV.

WRONG GUY DUDE... (my word).

If I believed it should be "thrown out," why do I keep quoting it in my posts?

Please go back and check the thread once more. (Even the best of us can make mistakes.)

That said, I knew of translation issues in the KJV (like the Johannine Comma that you pointed out) five decades ago, which is why I learned Greek. The scholars in Oxford and Cambridge just did not have the resources available in 1611 to provide an adequate translation. I provided a better alternative. If you don't like it, that ain't my fault.

Thanks,
Rhema
PS: Also here:

There is no trinity in John 1:1

According to the Word of God (which is able to make us wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus), there was no one in the beginning with God. It is written: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Searchingtoo]

WRONG GUY DUDE... (my word).

If I believed it should be "thrown out," why do I keep quoting it in my posts?

Please go back and check the thread once more. (Even the best of us can make mistakes.)

That said, I knew of translation issues in the KJV (like the Johannine Comma that you pointed out) five decades ago, which is why I learned Greek. The scholars in Oxford and Cambridge just did not have the resources available in 1611 to provide an adequate translation. I provided a better alternative. If you don't like it, that ain't my fault.

Thanks,
Rhema
PS: Also here:

There is no trinity in John 1:1

According to the Word of God (which is able to make us wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus), there was no one in the beginning with God. It is written: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God...

www.talkjesus.com

Sorry about that. I got you mixed up with rejoice evermore I think. Don't ask me how.

 

[Garee]

I believe everything in the Bible taken in context and I never said there was no way it could make sense. You just quoted the same KJ verse that I did. Our friend Rhema was trying to say that any translation that said "the word was with God" should be thrown out. Then he turned around and said the only true translation was the KJV. I was merely pointing out to him that he would have to throw all translations out including KJ if that is what the thought since it also says that the "the word was with God".

The rest of what you wrote (alphabet soup, etc.) made no sense to me since it had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Thanks for the reply .Yes, God is not a word he is Spirit that declares "Let it be" and it was good

Sorry for the alphabet soup . God is Spirit, God is love, God, God is light

God is not alphabet soup. . meaningless word or what the Pentecostals call tongues.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Technically it doesn't say "with." μετά means "with." And I'll admit that the selection of "with" as an English gloss is rather perplexing. (And then everybody was too scared to fix it.)

Instead, the author chose to write the word "πρός" (followed by an accusative noun).

For those of you who like Strong's.... πρός PROS -

A strengthened form of G4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, that is, toward (with the genitive case the side of, that is, pertaining to; with the dative case by the side of, that is, near to; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, that is, whither or for which it is predicated):​

And those accepting the Liddell Scott - here's a link

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πρός

www.perseus.tufts.edu

A. on the side of, in the direction of​

With Accusative...​

A. III. of Relation between two objects,​

1. in reference to, in respect of, touching​

The best one could say is "with regard to" if the word "with" needs to be used. However since THEOS can mean "the divine good," I submit a better translation for the consideration of the thread.

(John 1:1) The Pattern (λογος) was suffused throughout the cosmic protoplasm, and the Pattern was only of (PROS) the Divine Good, and Sovereign is the Pattern.​

The style of writing in John would be well recognized by other theologians like Philo, and one ought to understand that the vocabulary in John, such as ARXE and LOGOS, would reflect their definitions.

In addition to proclaiming that the LOGOS was suffused throughout (IN) everything around you (ARXE), John 1:1 also rejects Dualism that is found in Zoroastrianism and other religions by saying that the LOGOS is only of the Divine Good. That's what ο λογος ην προς τον θεον means.

Finally, when recognizing that THEOS also means "Sovereign," θεος ην ο λογος says exactly that without messing up the word order.

θεος (SOVERIGN) ην (IS) ο (THE) λογος (LOGOS).​

A declaration that also refutes the Gnostic idea that the physical world is evil.

Rhema
(And there's no need to reply unless one has something of substance to say.)

You might be over thinking this. Seems to me that "with" is similar to "by the side of, near to or toward" and is as close as you could get. So it seems Strong's or Liddell Scott meaning fits. Maybe when you write your own translation you can change. It doesn't seem like anyone else has.

 

[Garee]

Now that we have solved the theology of is there a Trinity or not a Trinity
let us explain simply for all of us the other marvellous spiritual wonders of the spiritual realms -

Ezekiel 10:18 Then the glory of the LORD went out from the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubim.
19 And the cherubim lifted up their wings and mounted up from the earth before my eyes as they went out, with the wheels beside them.
And they stood at the entrance of the east gate of the house of the LORD, and the glory of the God of Israel was over them.
20 These were the living creatures that I saw underneath the God of Israel by the Chebar canal; and I knew that they were cherubim.
21 Each had four faces, and each four wings, and underneath their wings the likeness of human hands.
22 And as for the likeness of their faces, they were the same faces whose appearance I had seen by the Chebar canal. Each one of them went straight forward.

They represent the glory of God. His glory will return on the last day . God does not have wings neither does he have a literal face to behold.

Wondering the Pentecostal gospel is not necessary for those who believe as anchor to their new born again soul .

It seem you forget the spiritual realm is the unseen realm (invisible). . Christ working in us to both reveal his truth and empower us to perform it to his good pleasure. .

It's not the spirit of Pentecost (50 days) Words like Pentecost have meaning .They clearly do not mean make a noise fall back slain in the spirit . . . mocking the word of God or tongue of God. .

Selling wonders. . I did it.. . it proves it . . .is not for sale.

It's the Holy Spirit not the spirit of confusion "wonderment" that some call purgatory or limbo .

 

[Searchingtoo]

Thanks for the reply .Yes, God is not a word he is Spirit that declares "Let it be" and it was good

Sorry for the alphabet soup . God is Spirit, God is love, God, God is light

God is not alphabet soup. . meaningless word or what the Pentecostals call tongues.

As for the tongues, Paul said" Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful." - 1 Cor. 14;13,14 I've been in some Pentecostal churches where that's exactly what they do. I've had some experience with it so I have mixed feelings about it.

 

[Garee]

As for the tongues, Paul said" Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful." - 1 Cor. 14;13,14 I've been in some Pentecostal churches where that's exactly what they do. I've had some experience with it so I have mixed feelings about it.

Thanks for the reply.

I would think the error is in how the word tongue is used as a law not subject to change after a oral tradition of mankind that fall back what they call slain in the spirit .. . .the law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14 :21. its foundation is in the old testament Isaiah 28

1 Corinthians 14 :21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Tongues is prophecy (no difference) in regard to all the languages of the world . Making it something to wonder after and therefore seek as self-edification is not the tongues spoken of Prophecy it brings belief not more to wonder, or marvel after. .

Paul it would seem is simply saying when he prophecies his new born agains spirit reveals the will of God . . spiritual gift not gifts of dying flesh. Not that in which the eyes see or ears hear.

1 Corinthians 14:1-4 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

He that is moved by the will of God sent as a apostle does not make unknown tongue sounds only known to him . the gift is mutal coming from the same source of faith as it is writen from that exclusive faith of Christ to the same unseen glory .

1 Corinthians 14:12-15 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

we can sing the same gospel song.

Saying if it applies to the hearer. . it applies to the one sent with words from the Father the mutual comforting work of two . Two the witness God has spoken.

I would offer God demonstrating his faithful labor of love

Romans 1: 8-12 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

All spiritual gifts(gifts not seen, not sign gifts seen ). . . gift that mutually benefit two. . . two or three gather together in his name he is there yoked with him ..

Romans 1: 16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[B-A-C]

I would think the error is in how the word tongue is used as a law not subject to change after a oral tradition of mankind that fall back what they call slain in the spirit .. . .the law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14 :21

I have been in over a dozen Pentecostal churches in the last decade. I haven't seen anyone practice falling down and being slain in the Spirit in about 20 years.
No doubt this still happens in some churches, I can't say it doesn't happen. But I can say, by and large this is not practice most Pentecostal churches follow.

Still, there is Power in the name of Jesus...

John 18:4; So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
John 18:5; They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
John 18:6; So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.

 

[Garee]

I have been in over a dozen Pentecostal churches in the last decade. I haven't seen anyone practice falling down and being slain in the Spirit in about 20 years.
No doubt this still happens in some churches, I can't say it doesn't happen. But I can say, by and large this is not practice most Pentecostal churches follow.

Still, there is Power in the name of Jesus...

John 18:4; So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
John 18:5; They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
John 18:6; So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Amen power in the name.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Thanks for the reply.

I would think the error is in how the word tongue is used as a law not subject to change after a oral tradition of mankind that fall back what they call slain in the spirit .. . .the law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14 :21. its foundation is in the old testament Isaiah 28

1 Corinthians 14 :21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Tongues is prophecy (no difference) in regard to all the languages of the world . Making it something to wonder after and therefore seek as self-edification is not the tongues spoken of Prophecy it brings belief not more to wonder, or marvel after. .

Paul it would seem is simply saying when he prophecies his new born agains spirit reveals the will of God . . spiritual gift not gifts of dying flesh. Not that in which the eyes see or ears hear.

1 Corinthians 14:1-4 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

He that is moved by the will of God sent as a apostle does not make unknown tongue sounds only known to him . the gift is mutal coming from the same source of faith as it is writen from that exclusive faith of Christ to the same unseen glory .

1 Corinthians 14:12-15 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

we can sing the same gospel song.

Saying if it applies to the hearer. . it applies to the one sent with words from the Father the mutual comforting work of two . Two the witness God has spoken.

I would offer God demonstrating his faithful labor of love

Romans 1: 8-12 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

All spiritual gifts(gifts not seen, not sign gifts seen ). . . gift that mutually benefit two. . . two or three gather together in his name he is there yoked with him ..

Romans 1: 16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

I don't want to get into a debate about tongues. I have set in meetings with Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagen, John Wesly Fletcher (we all know what happened to him) and others. These men all operated in he gifts of healing and knowledge impressively at times and still don't know where I stand.

I feel a little like Paul when he said "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven." Of course Paul was talking about himself. Sometimes when you are "in the spirit" things happen that afterwards you are not sure what did happen.

 

[Searchingtoo]

I have been in over a dozen Pentecostal churches in the last decade. I haven't seen anyone practice falling down and being slain in the Spirit in about 20 years.
No doubt this still happens in some churches, I can't say it doesn't happen. But I can say, by and large this is not practice most Pentecostal churches follow.

Still, there is Power in the name of Jesus...

John 18:4; So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
John 18:5; They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
John 18:6; So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.

It seems you are making reference to "I am he" meaning he is God?? In John 9:9 the blind man that Jesus healed also said "I am he". The same exact words that Jesus spoke. I guess he thought he was God too?

 

[Garee]

I don't want to get into a debate about tongues. I have set in meetings with Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagen, John Wesly Fletcher (we all know what happened to him) and others. These men all operated in he gifts of healing and knowledge impressively at times and still don't know where I stand.

I feel a little like Paul when he said "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven." Of course Paul was talking about himself. Sometimes when you are "in the spirit" things happen that afterwards you are not sure what did happen.

Caught up to third heaven is the same as receiving new prophecy in a vision . He was speaking of another person that claimed to receive prophecy .Saying God did know. He knows the hearts of all mankind and can soften them with the water of his word the gospel ..

Kind of like the awareness (Hebrews 13:2) we should be careful who we entertain strangers they could be a messenger as a apostle sent by God to us or us to them .(gifts are two fold not self edifying).

Spiritual gifts not seen . Bless both the speaker and the hearer having a mutual faith "as it is written". . .

When you say those men operated gifts in healing . Who. . . performed the power to heal ? We know God does not heal by the hand of dying mankind.(Acts 17:25) )

No sign gifts (Charismatic) not tongue or healing . .getting wet with water etc . We walk or are empower to do the will of God by the faith of Christ that works in us. .

I would think if someone desired a outward sign. I did it, it proves it (self edifying) Why not I read the Bible make that the claim or I pray in a group, or go to church ?..

Moved by the Holy Spirit is fruit of his unseen Spirit that work in us to both reveal the truth and empower us to do it according to his unseen Holy name..(power)

Why would a Christian murrur : "what about me look what I can do.? "

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Job reveals the good news the same way. both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God works in us performing what is appointed to us strengthening us yoked with Him, our daily bread. .He makes our hearts soft with the water of his word . . doctrines that fall like rain. (Deuteronomy 32)

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Hebrew 6 informs us of the better things that accompany salvation. . a promise he will not forget even one good work attributed to His name .

Now is the time we can offer a labor of love. .

Hebrew 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

 

[Christ4Ever]

It seems you are making reference to "I am he" meaning he is God?? In John 9:9 the blind man that Jesus healed also said "I am he". The same exact words that Jesus spoke. I guess he thought he was God too?

Dear Searchingtoo,
Why don't you read the actual subject of his post (Slain in the Spirit/Power in the name of Jesus) instead of what you think he was talking about which had nothing to do with the thought you infirmed it as being, which was Jesus identifying Himself as God. At least not in these particular verses.

I'm sure my Brother in Christ @B-A-C would have gotten around to it eventually, but maybe with this he won't have to spend his time correcting your erroneous input to his posting.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Searchingtoo]

It seems you are making reference to "I am he" meaning he is God?? In John 9:9 the blind man that Jesus healed also said "I am he". The same exact words that Jesus spoke. I guess he thought he was God too?

Maybe you're just in the wrong part of the country to see it but believe me it happens today in a lot of churches. In recent years I've been in churches where they "shout", roll on the floor and are slain in the spirit in recent years. Never been to a church where they handle snakes but they have them around where I live too.