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What is Grace? Is it what we think?

Greetings, What is Grace?
I would say Grace is best defined as unmerited mercy. What the grace of God is, is helping mankind from death to life. Not stay in death with their sin.


Two common mistakes made.

1. Suggesting grace is unmerited favor. God is impartial Acts 10:34. He shows no special favor. We just need to avoid that word, albeit be 'slightly' related to what grace is.

2. Assuming we are saved from an eternal suffering in hell. We are saved from death. Being in death in the OT meant you could be in one of two places in Hades. Abrahams bosom was not a place of suffering. Yet it was, death.

God never punishes the person who sincerely repents, even if they are in death. So, ironically God's grace does not alleviate us from suffering, our repentance does . I guess we could then argue that God allows this because He is a merciful God. The punishment for all in sin, is death. Those who do not repent, bear the full curse of their sin. They will not experience God's mercy or His grace.
 
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Greetings KingJ,

I shall reply more specifically ASAP.
For now, could you head over to the prayer section and according to the Lord's leading, read/reply to the thread 'Help!'.

grace and peace


Bless you ....><>
 
I would say Grace is best defined as unmerited mercy. What the grace of God is, is helping mankind from death to life. Not stay in death with their sin.


Two common mistakes made.

1. Suggesting grace is unmerited favor. God is impartial Acts 10:34. He shows no special favor. We just need to avoid that word, albeit be 'slightly' related to what grace is.

2. Assuming we are saved from an eternal suffering in hell. We are saved from death. Being in death in the OT meant you could be in one of two places in Hades. Abrahams bosom was not a place of suffering. Yet it was, death.

God never punishes the person who sincerely repents, even if they are in death. So, ironically God's grace does not alleviate us from suffering, our repentance does . I guess we could then argue that God allows this because He is a merciful God. The punishment for all in sin, is death. Those whodo not repent, bear the full curse of their sin. They will not experience God's mercy or His grace.
Seems to me that receiving anything good when unworthy is mercy...I do wonder why we, in our western thinking, tend to complicate things as we do. Our circular reasoning gets us into so much trouble... Thank God for the 'suddenlys' and the 'But Gods'
 
Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Can anybody explain to me how Jesus was in any way unmeriting favor of God, or, now, unmeriting mercy? Jesus IS God...How could He possibly not merrit His favor? Yet grace was upon Him.
 
Bendito,
re: "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him."


I wonder when the grace left Him so that it could come upon Him at His baptism?
 
Bendito,
re: "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him."


I wonder when the grace left Him so that it could come upon Him at His baptism?

Please show the scripture for that one?

Matthew 3:13-17 (CJB)
13 Then Yeshua came from the Galil to the Yarden to be immersed by Yochanan. 14 But Yochanan tried to stop him. “You are coming to me? I ought to be immersed by you!” 15 However, Yeshua answered him, “Let it be this way now, because we should do everything righteousness requires.” Then Yochanan let him. 16 As soon as Yeshua had been immersed, he came up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, he saw the Spirit of God coming down upon him like a dove, 17 and a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; I am well pleased with him.”
Where does it say grace came on Jesus when He was baptised?
 
Luke 1:80; And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts until the day of his public appearance to Israel.

{KJV}
Luke 1:80; And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

One quick comment here. In the NASB and most newer translations. The "HolY" Spirit is always capitalized.
However the word "spirit" in this verse is not.

Is it possible this isn't the Holy Spirit... but simply a spirit of character?

For example...

Matt 4:1; Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

notice "Spirit" is uppercase.
 
Bendito,
re: "Where does it say grace came on Jesus when He was baptised?"

I thought you were saying in your post #15 that grace and the Holy Spirit were one and the same thing.
 
Bendito,
re: "Where does it say grace came on Jesus when He was baptised?"

I thought you were saying in your post #15 that grace and the Holy Spirit were one and the same thing.
Nope. I was saying that grace is His presence. His empowering presence. He gives us the strength to do what He has for us to do....The power (authority) and ability that He gives us is Grace. I suppose He could be called grace as well because God is most certainly gracious.
 
Bendito,
re: "Nope"

OK, sorry. I thought you were disagreeing with my comment that Paul never included the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's greetings.
 
Greetings,

I would say Grace is best defined as unmerited mercy. What the grace of God is, is helping mankind from death to life. Not stay in death with their sin.


Two common mistakes made.

1. Suggesting grace is unmerited favor. God is impartial Acts 10:34. He shows no special favor. We just need to avoid that word, albeit be 'slightly' related to what grace is.

2. Assuming we are saved from an eternal suffering in hell. We are saved from death. Being in death in the OT meant you could be in one of two places in Hades. Abrahams bosom was not a place of suffering. Yet it was, death.

God never punishes the person who sincerely repents, even if they are in death. So, ironically God's grace does not alleviate us from suffering, our repentance does . I guess we could then argue that God allows this because He is a merciful God. The punishment for all in sin, is death. Those who do not repent, bear the full curse of their sin. They will not experience God's mercy or His grace.

which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Except a man be drawn.... to ....

===============
Under the Law the fullness had to be paid. (we know this was done by our Saviour)
Is Grace related to Love (charity type found in Corinthians)?
Should we then sin? God forbid, wrote the Apostle. Free to do so, but, God forbid.
How can we be free to? Is that the Grace we have in the forgiveness of God?
The Law demanded retribution. Forgiveness doesn't.

===============
Back to the chicken and the egg... does one repent without first experiencing the Grace of God?
Repentance is also for one who does, a complete renewal, instantaneous and remarkable to blessing and regeneration.
It is not like paying for a meal and then waiting for it to be ready. Or ordering an item and then having it made.
Repentance is life, a bit like a baby being born. One moment it is unborn, then it is and fully an individual person, completely new.
Is this why repentance is so vital? Could it be love that has organized and orchestrated it thus? Is this love our God?

I know for me, I was in wretched tears of repentance and at the same time beaming with joy with the flood of forgiveness and new life. An amazing phenomenon that one has to go through in order to fully understand.
What words describe the delight in repenting? But do we come at repentance with excitement and rejoicing? No.

A bit of a ramble, but that will do for now,

oh, yes, how do we get to that place to begin with? Could it be that we are drawn to it? By Who or what?


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings,

When I see the word 'grace' in scripture, I substitute "the ways and/or means of God".

according to your present understanding of those ways and/or means, yet, with our new language, we understand what this means.
Like smelling a beautiful flower.... if you sniff it too, you too will understand what i mean by the smile on my face.

Such is grace.


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings,

In a discussion about the trinity, I made the comment that it might be interesting to note that in none of Paul's greetings did he mention the Holy Spirit - that he only mentioned the father and the son, i.e., "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." ...

... Anyone here have any insight into this?

yes, I do. But finding the words to express that insight is alluding me at present.
It is certainly a comment that deserves more time exploring.

Perhaps another thread @rstrats ?


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings Bendito one,

Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Can anybody explain to me how Jesus was in any way unmeriting favor of God, or, now, unmeriting mercy? Jesus IS God...How could He possibly not merrit His favor? Yet grace was upon Him.

Perhaps the meriting and unmerited part is our modern way of amplifying the word 'grace' ?

I have more to write on this subject but need reminding from time to time. Multi-tasking and me get a bit fuddled.
thank you for pointing out this verse. Many of the old commentaries lean towards the 'favor' of God, and also the manifestation of such being with the young Jesus.


Bless you ....><>
 
Under the Law the fullness had to be paid. (we know this was done by our Saviour)

We just need to grasp what exactly was paid for.

There are two things to consider.

1. The law of 'wages of sin is death'.
2. God's punishment Rom 2:6 en route to those judged as wicked John 3:19.

Jesus died for point 1, He cannot help anyone with point 2.

Example, God's wrath / judgement / decision on the people of Sodom was and is final. They did not make it to Abraham's bosom in Hades. They will not escape the eternal lake of fire.

Likewise, wicked people today who die without any desire to repent, they too benefit absolutely zero from the cross.

Now we know that in the OT, before the cross, there were two homes in Hades for those failing at point 1. The sinners who would not repent were with the rich man and those sinners who did repent were with Lazarus. This split is evidence of point 2.

Point 1 and 2 are completely unrelated punishments. If Jesus never went to the cross, all would be in death, but not all would be receiving / deserving of point 2.

Back to the chicken and the egg... does one repent without first experiencing the Grace of God?
Yes. All of mankind is accountable for sin because of their intelligence level. Our brain can grasp the difference between good and evil. God paid Cain a visit after he killed his brother. Would God have paid Cain a visit if He thought Cain did not have the ability to grasp his actions and repent? I think not.

The reality / evidence / knowledge of good and evil is all around us. Wicked people have absolutely no excuse as they can all see and grasp the sweetness and innocence of babies and children for example. They know that a judgement day is coming. It is impossible for any working brain to come to a different conclusion. Highly intelligent mind + evidence of the choice of good and evil all around us = inevitable judgment day. A fisherman who catches a fish can take the hook out and throw the fish back in the water or leave the hook in and watch the fish suffocate to death in pain. If they allow the latter, they are not ignorant to their wickedness. Our brains work to justify our actions all day. We know when we fail. Or at least we may recall such a time. As there is self induced brainwashing that takes place among the wicked. One of the reasons wicked person finds a belief like atheism attractive.

I would say, we in the NT are privileged. We can grasp and experience the love and grace of God on another level. Because the Holy Spirit is here.

It is just paramount to grasp that we are not given partiality over those in the OT. This privileged experience is not 'being privileged'. The revelation of Jesus happens at the same time we repent. The thoughts of a good God (if we have them) that lead up to repentance are the same for all, from day one to today.

God is good. There is no darkness in Him at all. He shows ''NO'' partiality. He gives those living after the cross ''NO'' unfair advantage over those living prior.

oh, yes, how do we get to that place to begin with? Could it be that we are drawn to it? By Who or what?
A working brain / conscience. A mental decision to hate what is wicked and repent / make amends / deal with it. A hearts desire to be good vs wicked.

We need to grasp with crystal clarity the fact that people reject the light because they love the darkness. Not because they were never smothered in or drawn to the light.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The light comes to all. This can also be explained as Jesus knocking on the doors to all our hearts.
 
Greetings,

Abraham believed. Was it because by grace, God (first) revealed Himself to him (Abram/Abraham)?


Bless you ....><>
 
But is it ever the person referred to as the Holy Spirit?
  • Absolutely! Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
  • Through his "Amazing Grace", it is all about him and none of us and certainly , part of this Grace, is him giving us the Holy Spirit as a gift!
 
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and Who it is that saith to thee, Give Me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water. John 4:10

For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water. Jeremiah 2:13

But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life. John 4:14

And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:1-7
 
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