What is Grace? Is it what we think?

[Curtis]

Everything given by God to his children is by "grace" If it is not by grace then man had to earn it to get it. How does a person gain access to grace by which everything is given? It is only by "faith" that gives man access to grace, and that faith comes only from the one who gives grace! Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Nobody can have faith in the Son of God until they first have the faith "of" the Son of God!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

could it be that grace is the extending of Mercy to all men?
Under the Law, Israel was kept. They also received mercy which surely was also a measure of grace? In providing the sacrifice, the offering, the priesthood, He provided for them.

Christ has fulfilled the Law. Grace has been extended to all. No more is it only for Jews that God looks with any favour.

So, when we use this word, Grace, perhaps we could remember that because He has provided and He has opened the gates to all men, we can partake of His mercy which we find in His forgiveness.

Or should we suggest that there is no more mercy, that mercy has been done away with? I don't think so....
how about you?


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

So, when we use this word, Grace, perhaps we could remember that because He has provided and He has opened the gates to all men, we can partake of His mercy which we find in His forgiveness.

Or should we suggest that there is no more mercy, that mercy has been done away with? I don't think so....
how about you?

Were the "gates" ever closed to all men? Even under old testament law Gentiles could be "grafted in".

I do have to say.. I see a mixed message in this post.

If God requires us to be perfect to be saved (as some say). Then there is certainly no mercy "after" we are saved.

Ezek 33:11; "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Then there is certainly no mercy "after" we are saved.

I don't think we will need it then, will we?

What about obedience? Half hearted is ok, isn't it? A pure heart can really be a pure enough heart, surely? Worship in spirit and half truth, perhaps?

Do you see what i mean in this.

I appreciate being able to discuss this with you, B-A-C. That's what TalkJesus is here for and that's what we all are meant to be doing in peace, as believers, in the love He has given us, which is perfect love, no less.


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

I don't think we will need it then, will we?

What about obedience? Half hearted is ok, isn't it? A pure heart can really be a pure enough heart, surely? Worship in spirit and half truth, perhaps?

Do you see what i mean in this.

I only think we wouldn't need it ( mercy ) if we never sinned after we were saved.

The opposite of obedience is sin. How can you have a "pure heart" and live in sin? Part of the worship "in truth" is the truth and consequences of living in sin.

Do I see what you mean here? I'm not sure. I am honestly trying.

I see our relationship with God/Jesus much like a marriage. ( We are called the bride of Christ - Eph 5:23-24; )

I am not a perfect husband. I want to be. I try to be. I have always been faithful to my wife. .and .. yet...
There were times I said things I shouldn't said, and did things I shouldn't have done. I could be more helpful sometimes.
I love my wife. I try to act like it. I try not to do anything that would hurt her. I have hurt her.. but not on purpose.

We say we love Jesus... we should act like it. There may be times we hurt Him, and make mistakes.
But I believe it is also possible not to care if we hurt him. There is a difference between the occasional mistake and willful disobedience.
If I did something say... once a year... maybe even one a month that hurt my wife... she might forgive me, especially if she thought I didn't do it to
purposely hurt her.

If I did something that hurt her every day, maybe even several times every day.... she probably would stop believing I loved her.
If the tables were turned and she did that to me... I think I would stop believing she loved me. At the very least I wouldn't think I was one
of the more important things in her life. I might even think she was selfish. Could I keep loving her and forgiving her through all of that? maybe.

But I think there comes a time when we know, that even though "we are married". The love is gone. I have been there. I am divorced.
I'm not proud of it. I didn't want it. But it happened.

We can call ourselves Christians. We can say we love Jesus. But actions speak louder than words. Our words mean very little.
Our actions mean a lot. ( Matt 21:31; )
If we say we are Christians... and yet living for ourselves.. for the world.. and not for Christ, I think He knows it. He knows where our heart is.
He never betrays us. He is always faithful. But all through the Bible, people betray God... there are consequences. (usually death) unless they repent.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings B-A-C,

and even if they did repent.. remember David and the loss he suffered... tragic by human standards.

I know that bitterness is something to be guarded against at all costs. A tenacious, deadly, poisonous weed if ever there was one.
Unforgiveness too. Be judged by the judgement you judge by. Sobering. (or should be)
Patience and long-suffering as our Lord is and has been.

We are to be harmless, Children of God.
Jesus was.

Thank you for sharing that. It is encouraging and I can relate to some degree or another to different parts.

Sure glad to be reminded about our opinion (personal opinion) about and attitude to sin, lately.

If we say we are Christians... and yet living for ourselves.. for the world.. and not for Christ, I think He knows it. He knows where our heart is.

The parable of the Sower and the Seed.... some....


Bless you and yours ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

An English word and probably an old word, not necessarily up to date with our present vernacular?

• The words of the Bible are approximately 2700 years old as written and , I am sure, infinity as conceived.
• Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
• The "Present Vernacular" caused my old church of near 100 years old to change the definition of marriage to any consenting adult and not between a Man and Woman!
• With the " Present Vernacular" are you talking about the present word of God vernacular or the current secular vernacular?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

• The words of the Bible are approximately 2700 years old as written and , I am sure, infinity as conceived.
• Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
• The "Present Vernacular" caused my old church of near 100 years old to change the definition of marriage to any consenting adult and not between a Man and Woman!
• With the " Present Vernacular" are you talking about the present word of God vernacular or the current secular vernacular?

good question!
What do you think? I would like to think you understood exactly what i meant but if you can't please point out which bits and i shall try to re-word it for you.


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

With the " Present Vernacular" are you talking about the present word of God vernacular or the current secular vernacular?

Does society determine what God means? Or should what God says determine what society does?
Society has tried to become God.

 

[B-A-C]

and even if they did repent.. remember David and the loss he suffered... tragic by human standards.

Could there be grace even in this?
I realize this question can quickly get turned into Calvinistic predestination and all that.. but I will take a chance.
Does God with-hold grace from some people?

I believe He does not. But let me take this a little further.

In the story of the sheep and goats ( Matt 25:31-46; ) does God give grace to the sheep but not to the goats?
Or did He give grace to both, but something more required after the initial grace?

In the parable of the talents ( Matt 25:14-30; ) does God give grace to two of the servants, but with-hold grace from the third?
Or did He give grace to all three, but something else was required after the grace was given?

In the parable of the 10 virgins ( Matt 25:1-13; ) does God give grace to only 5 of the virgins and keep it from the other five?
Or did He give grace to all 10, and something else was required after the grace was given?

The people in Matt 7:21-32; did God with-hold grace from them? Or did He require them to do something they didn't do?
The answer seems to be in the next four verses about the sand and the rock.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Society has tried to become God.

or perhaps a better way to put it might be that society has tried to displace God?

Could there be grace even in this?
I realize this question can quickly get turned into Calvinistic predestination and all that.. but I will take a chance.
Does God with-hold grace from some people?

I believe He does not. But let me take this a little further.

In the story of the sheep and goats ( Matt 25:31-46; ) does God give grace to the sheep but not to the goats?
Or did He give grace to both, but something more required after the initial grace?

In the parable of the talents ( Matt 25:14-30; ) does God give grace to two of the servants, but with-hold grace from the third?
Or did He give grace to all three, but something else was required after the grace was given?

In the parable of the 10 virgins ( Matt 25:1-13; ) does God give grace to only 5 of the virgins and keep it from the other five?
Or did He give grace to all 10, and something else was required after the grace was given?

The people in Matt 7:21-32; did God with-hold grace from them? Or did He require them to do something they didn't do?
The answer seems to be in the next four verses about the sand and the rock.

Hence my [the] original original question of this thread...
What is grace - is it what we think?

Has churchianity by means of christianese warped it a fair bit in order to accommodate itself?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

I would like to think you understood exactly what i meant

No. I think appropriately, what do say about my bullets?:

• The words of the Bible are approximately 2700 years old as written and , I am sure, infinity as conceived.
• Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
• The "Present Vernacular" caused my old church of near 100 years old to change the definition of marriage to any consenting adult and not between a Man and Woman!
• With the " Present Vernacular" are you talking about the present word of God vernacular or the current secular

 

[At Peace]

Does God with-hold grace from some people?
I believe He does not. But let me take this a little further.

In the story of the sheep and goats ( Matt 25:31-46; ) does God give grace to the sheep but not to the goats?
Or did He give grace to both, but something more required after the initial grace?

In the parable of the talents ( Matt 25:14-30; ) does God give grace to two of the servants, but with-hold grace from the third?
Or did He give grace to all three, but something else was required after the grace was given?

In the parable of the 10 virgins ( Matt 25:1-13; ) does God give grace to only 5 of the virgins and keep it from the other five?
Or did He give grace to all 10, and something else was required after the grace was given?

The people in Matt 7:21-32; did God with-hold grace from them? Or did He require them to do something they didn't do?
The answer seems to be in the next four verses about the sand and the rock.

I agree with your "I believe He does NOT".
The grace was granted at the beginning of each parable you list.
Folks could be likened to goat or sheep.
Men were each given gifts to advance monetarily.
All the virgins were invited to the reception.
It is by what the folks did with that grace that they were judged.

 

[Born Again 2004]

From the beginning God has used symbolism to describe the process of seperation . Good from the bad, holy from the un-holly, wheat from the chaff or, the saved from the unsaved....his final seperation will be the Sheep from the Goats or the believers from non- believers.

 

[Bendito]

• The words of the Bible are approximately 2700 years old as written and , I am sure, infinity as conceived.
• Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
• The "Present Vernacular" caused my old church of near 100 years old to change the definition of marriage to any consenting adult and not between a Man and Woman!
• With the " Present Vernacular" are you talking about the present word of God vernacular or the current secular vernacular?

You do know of course that the word vernacular refers to a local pattern of speech which would overlap both secular and 'Word of God' patterns of speech. Vernacular changes from region to region time to time and in different education levels...
We've changed the meanings of words over time and the word 'Grace' is one of the words we've changed because of vernacular. One word we have not changed is 'mercy' it means 'unmeritten favor' while our vernacular changed the word 'grace' to mean mercy 'unmeritten favor' which it is not.

 

[Born Again 2004]

All I know, there is nothing that can "overlap" the word of God.... don't you see that?

 

[Bendito]

All I know, there is nothing that can "overlap" the word of God.... don't you see that?

LOL Your 'translation' of the Word can and will obscure it for you though. That's your translation overlapping the Word.

 

[Born Again 2004]

LOL Your 'translation' of the Word can and will obscure it for you though. That's your translation overlapping the Word.

Your words, not mine brother!

 

[Bendito]

Your words, not mine brother!

As you wish.

 

[Born Again 2004]

As you wish.

I don't wish it...you did!! Have a blessed day!