What is Grace? Is it what we think?

[Born Again 2004]

• So be it! No matter how you interpret it:
• I prefer to thank God for his saving Grace, despite my inequities. That he sees Christ perfection in me! And, looks at my sin no more
• You prefer to thank God for his gift of you being perfect with no flaws! As God sees your perfection and not that of his son!

 

[Br. Bear]

@Born Again 2004
Greetings,

if there be any perfection seen in me by God or man, it is only and 100% due to the Son of God and if the Lord be happy to accept such perfection, I am more than glad.

I am not sure why you are so disgruntled (judging from some of your recent comments) but may I remind you that TalkJesus does not accept ongoing personal insults against any members.

If we would search the Scriptures beyond our hearts and feelings, beyond our emotions and present stand on our opinions, and if we would search the Scriptures desiring food for the building up of each other and the admonishing of each other in love and if we would spend a little time in prayer before posting anything and maybe even before writing, we might find that our fellowship here with one another (that is all members) is as it was set out to be.

Christ died for us. We did not die for Him. He established the Church and we, in the 20th and 21st centuries have been invited to join it and uphold the values it has for one another and be a light and be salt to the world we live in.
The internet has become a much used and searched media and at TalkJesus we are determined that our part is to offer some of the hope and love that we ourselves (all of us) have been given. We can do this by following after and walking with the Lord Himself and by denying every onset of carnal communication between one another.

Let us build one another up in the most holy faith and be ready for the coming of the Lord.

This thread is about Grace.
perhaps we ought to remember this as we engage and post our replies.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

This thread is about Grace.
perhaps we ought to remember this as we engage and post our replies.

Hmm, I can't say what your agenda is but, I am sure I said the below:

I prefer to thank God for his saving Grace

 

[Bendito]

Greetings Bendito one,



Perhaps the meriting and unmerited part is our modern way of amplifying the word 'grace' ?

I have more to write on this subject but need reminding from time to time. Multi-tasking and me get a bit fuddled.
thank you for pointing out this verse. Many of the old commentaries lean towards the 'favor' of God, and also the manifestation of such being with the young Jesus.


Bless you ....><>

I think its interesting here....When is mercy ever merited? Probably never as far as salvation goes. Favor may be merited or unmerited...But again....When did Jesus not merit favor? When did Jesus not merit mercy? But Jesus did not receive mercy any time as far as I can see... Jesus was always worthy of any good thing from the Father.
Our problem is....Our western thinking vs eastern thinking, specifically Hebrew thinking. Find the meaning of the words 'Chen vChesed Hashem' as in "and the Chen vChesed Hashem was upon him" These are the words we translate to 'favor of God'

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

I think its interesting here....When is mercy ever merited? Probably never as far as salvation goes. Favor may be merited or unmerited...But again....When did Jesus not merit favor? When did Jesus not merit mercy? But Jesus did not receive mercy any time as far as I can see... Jesus was always worthy of any good thing from the Father.
Our problem is....Our western thinking vs eastern thinking, specifically Hebrew thinking. Find the meaning of the words 'Chen vChesed Hashem' as in "and the Chen vChesed Hashem was upon him" These are the words we translate to 'favor of God'

do you think that perhaps it (grace) could have something to do with the Seven Spirits of God as we find in the Book of Revelation?

Bless you ....><>

 

[Bendito]

Greetings,



do you think that perhaps it (grace) could have something to do with the Seven Spirits of God as we find in the Book of Revelation?

Bless you ....><>

What an interesting question! I think it can only be answered through prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit. We have no better teacher than He is.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

Greetings,



do you think that perhaps it (grace) could have something to do with the Seven Spirits of God as we find in the Book of Revelation?

Bless you ....><>

This is the way I view grace and the Seven Spirits of God.

I view salvation as a formula. I think 'grace' is misunderstood in some ways. Grace is what God did for mankind through Jesus Christ. When we say we are saved by grace we need to realize that everybody including unbelievers are saved by grace, the entire planet is saved by grace. It's just that unbelievers haven't accepted the GRACE God provided in Jesus Christ. FAITH, better interpreted as "living faith," is the evidence that we have accepted the GRACE God provided in Jesus. WORKS is the evidence of that LIVING FAITH in Jesus. WORKS is the evidence that something significant has taken place in a believers life who has accepted that GRACE God provided in Jesus.

As you know I'm non-trinitarian. I believe that the Holy Spirit IS the seven spirits of God. If you look at the Throne of God, the Father is there, Jesus is there, but where's the Holy Spirit? It's out of place to declare a third person with no name as being co-equal to the Father and Jesus who isn't found in or around the Throne of God.

The trinity doctrine is the big reason why I got out of the ministry.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

What an interesting question! I think it can only be answered through prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit. We have no better teacher than He is.

=>

do you think that perhaps it (grace) could have something to do with the Seven Spirits of God as we find in the Book of Revelation?

yes, and may the Lord be pleased to reveal any truth in it to us as we seek Him and listen to what He has to say.

It's just that unbelievers haven't accepted the GRACE God provided in Jesus Christ.

Is it grace they have not accepted or Salvation made available by grace?

As you know I'm non-trinitarian. I believe...

It doesn't matter what you are regarding trinitarianism, really. What matters to us and ought to matter to all is what the Scriptures say and it is only He Who is the Author Who can and will and does reveal all things to us. (I am not referring to what you followed this with @BLACKSHEEP but considering your opening statement as being of no weight to the Scriptures or to what you present here on Scriptural grounds, that is)

FAITH, better interpreted as "living faith," is the evidence that we have accepted the GRACE God provided in Jesus. WORKS is the evidence of that LIVING FAITH in Jesus. WORKS is the evidence that something significant has taken place in a believers life who has accepted that GRACE God provided in Jesus.

@BLACKSHEEP
This seem good but may I ask, do we see any of the evidence or do those who accept the grace, as you put it, show nothing of it?
Reason I ask is :
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Perhaps i am mixing up faith as we read here with works as you wrote about above?

Back to the Spirits of God and grace, we often talk about things because that is what we have been bought up with. But is Grace something that is God that He has given to man? How?
and to further this thought, if grace is one of the seven, what then are the other six?

It is good to be able to discuss these things together in peace, to the glory of God the Father.


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

The "Spirit of Grace"... is mentioned in a couple of scriptures.

This is a famous prophecy of Jesus.

Zec 12:10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

This is a verse commonly used to refute OSAS,

Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

I have always taken this as just another name for the Holy Spirit.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings, Abraham believed. Was it because by grace, God (first) revealed Himself to him (Abram/Abraham)? Bless you ....><>

No. That is like saying Paul believed because he was thrown off his horse by God.

It is a Calvinistic argument. It is easily debunked by considering examples like: Judas, who saw Jesus walk on water and still gave in to evil. The devil, promoted to being the covering cherub. A rank above all angels. He still chose evil. Pharaoh, saw God's hand at work in plague after plague. Yet he still chose evil.

What we read about Abraham in Gen 18 is all we need to know about the type of faith he had. He questioned and interrogated God. He became convinced in his mind and heart, that indeed God was good. Abraham chose to place his absolute trust in God because he had absolute trust in God being good, righteous and holy. It is key to grasp that. If we do not state that, then we leave the door open for the assumption of 'Abraham believed it was God'' and that is why he obeyed the instruction to sacrifice his son. IE Abraham's faith would then be in God's existence and God actually speaking to him. When in fact Abraham's faith was in God's goodness.

Abraham knew this good and holy God must have one hell of a reason for asking him to sacrifice his son. So he conceded, knowing that God surely loved his son more then he did. That is Christian faith. It is faith (a growing faith) in God's goodness. In His love. In His honesty. In His mercy. In His humility.

 

[Curtis]

Man in his fallen state could never discover God because he is spiritually dead! As it is written, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared unto ALL men..." (Titus 2:11)

Grace is God revealing himself to a spiritually dead man who does not deserve it. No body is saved by faith, they are saved by grace through faith... Faith is the key that gives man access to grace by which he is saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Dave M]

are there any other responsibilities attached to getting grace?

Is there any responsibilities attached once we receive grace?

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

This seem good but may I ask, do we see any of the evidence or do those who accept the grace, as you put it, show nothing of it?
Reason I ask is :
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Perhaps i am mixing up faith as we read here with works as you wrote about above?

Everybody should see the evidence of Jesus in us.
I just did a little research on 'faith'. It's more detailed than I thought.
Depending on the verse, faith implies a conviction of truth, belief, assurance, trust-worthiness. I think in Ephesians where it says...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

...would be better translated, "For by grace are we saved through the conviction of truth."

That truth would be found in Jesus life, death, and resurrection. All I'm saying is when grace is accepted, a believer should have the 'conviction of truth' is Jesus as Savior in the cross and that SHOULD result in works. We can't forget that faith without works is dead. The entire planet is saved by grace....for God so loved the world...there has to be some evidence of ones conversion...it just can't be 'belief'...the demons also believe.

Back to the Spirits of God and grace, we often talk about things because that is what we have been bought up with. But is Grace something that is God that He has given to man? How?
and to further this thought, if grace is one of the seven, what then are the other six?

I suppose grace does have something to do with the seven Spirits. I think it's safe to say grace is administered by God through Christ spirit and through the Seven Spirits. The Holy Spirit can be the Spirit of Christ or the any one or more of the Seven Spirits who I believe are seven different hierarchies of angels.

It is good to be able to discuss these things together in peace, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes it is. thank you brother.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

are there any other responsibilities attached to getting grace?

Is there any responsibilities attached once we receive grace?

There has to be. Too may in the church today say, "all you have to do is believe". But that doesn't work since the demons also believe. There has to be some way to authenticate a persons acceptance of grace, and that would be living faith illustrated by works.

 

[Curtis]

Grace is not a one time deal. Grace can be "multiplied"!

2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Grace just like faith, can increase, but not in "quality", but "quantity". All revelation given by God about himself is grace in action.

 

[Br. Bear]

This is a verse commonly used to refute OSAS,

It is a Calvinistic argument.

Greetings gents,

I was unaware that this Scripture or thought was aligned to such things and certainly had no desire to imply or present any such things but thank you for letting me know that some might think like that.

And thank you Curtis for pointing this verse out:

2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

It is always good to be able to discuss these things in peace,
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalm 133:1

Praise ye the LORD: for it is good to sing praises unto our God; for it is pleasant; and praise is comely. Psalm 147:1

Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

do you think that perhaps it (grace) could have something to do with the Seven Spirits of God as we find in the Book of Revelation?

Bless you ....><>

• I think that mostly the point of Grace is being missed. Of course, we are saved by Grace and, I say mostly missed because some have use unmerited favor, which, with regard to God's perfection, it is true and he continues to show us his favor and we certainly do not deserve it.
• Why don't we deserve it?....Simply, favor, from a perfect God would be unmerited, unless we are perfect, which we are not!
• He offers us Grave because he loves us, wants a relationship with us and because he is God.
• So what is Grace? I think appropriately, that it is every and any thing that we don't deserve, which God gives to us as a gift....and if it is a gift....it is free!
• And if you go to heaven possessing this gift, his grace, love and this gift will abound for all eternity!
• Heaven is Grace!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

• I think that mostly the point of Grace is being missed. Of course, we are saved by Grace and, I say mostly missed because some have use unmerited favor, which, with regard to God's perfection, it is true and he continues to show us his favor and we certainly do not deserve it.
• Why don't we deserve it?....Simply, favor, from a perfect God would be unmerited, unless we are perfect, which we are not!
• He offers us Grave because he loves us, wants a relationship with us and because he is God.
• So what is Grace? I think appropriately, that it is every and any thing that we don't deserve, which God gives to us as a gift....and if it is a gift....it is free!
• And if you go to heaven possessing this gift, his grace, love and this gift will abound for all eternity!
• Heaven is Grace!

Thank you Born Again 2004 for sharing this in reply,

All good, according to how we see grace as being within the bounds of as you are explaining - in other words, providing we consider grace in that way [which is to some degree according to each one's person interpretation and understanding/opinion].

However, please excuse me but you lost me on the last part:
"And if you go to heaven possessing this gift, his grace, love and this gift will abound for all eternity!"
Do you mind running this past me again? I am not the quickest off the block, so please bear with me?
If you go to heaven possessing this gift sounds almost as if you can go there another way? Maybe it is the 'if' part.

I suppose I am seeing we can 'go to Heaven' (as you put it), because of God's Grace... and only because of His grace.

thank you again,


Bless you ....><>

 

[Dave M]

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; y“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

seems to me saving faith the kind of faith that God gives grace to produces works. I think we all agree our works is not what saves us, but saving faith produces works and is a good way of judging yourself if you have dead faith or saving faith. We should see a real change in ourselfs when we are given grace when we are born again. Grace is a gift from God that changes us !!

 

[Born Again 2004]

However, please excuse me but you lost me on the last part:
"And if you go to heaven possessing this gift, his grace, love and this gift will abound for all eternity!"
Do you mind running this past me again? I am not the quickest off the block, so please bear with me?
If you go to heaven possessing this gift sounds almost as if you can go there another way? Maybe it is the 'if' part.

"And if you go to heaven possessing this gift, his grace, love and this gift will abound for all eternity!"

• If you go to heaven..if you are saved, "Born Again"...possess the Holy Spirit in you as a gift of God or a "down payment" for the assurance of heaven and eternal life.
• So, if you posses this gift ( Grace) of God when you die, you spiritually go to Heaven. If you die and don't posses this gift, you spiritually go to the "other" place! It is another way of saying you are saved or you are not!
• Grace is every gift from God. Grace can also be considered the same as Agape, or unmerited love of God. In 1 Corinthians 13 we find the well used passage that what remains ( right now) is Faith, Hope and Love and of these three Love( Grace) is the greatest or endures. Think about it: No Faith....it got you there, No Hope....it has been realized....what remains forever is Love or Grace. Love ( Grace) bounds for all eternity!
• The only way to heaven is by way of God's free gift of the indwelling of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.....Like Jesus said: " You must be Born Again!