KingJ
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You making no sense, which line from me makes you say this.
Where do you get ''burnt alive for eternity''. That there is fire, does no mean people burn alive for eternity. What scripture you quoting?
What is hell?
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You making no sense, which line from me makes you say this.
Where do you get ''burnt alive for eternity''. That there is fire, does no mean people burn alive for eternity. What scripture you quoting?
PloughBoy
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It maybe true:As Christians whose ''only'' job is to be Christ's ambassador's, 'we get the story right'.
Mother tells son, "our religion is based on love, son"
Son replies, "so what happens when people don't follow the rules?"
Mother answers, "God's rules are all based on loving your neighbor as yourself and honoring God. So, not 'following His rules', makes you a wicked person.''
Son replies, ''So what does your loving God do with the wicked?''
Mother answers ''God loves the sinner but not their sin. He gives them all an eternal home."
Son replies ''So why is there fire there, do they burn?''
Mother replies ''Yes, all sin needs a punishment. But the fire there is not the same as the fire we know. The Bible tells us that the rich man could hold an intellectual conversation and asked only for a drop of water on his tongue''. We also know that God is true to His word on punishment and will only give each a punishment according to what they do / did Rom 2:6 as He is righteous and just God Psalm 89:14''.
Your quote:
"As Christians whose ''only'' job is to be Christ's ambassador's, 'we get the story right'
."But A True Child of The Living GOD, Born of HIS SPIRIT and Wash In His BLOOD, that Had A HEAVENLY Birth and not A WORLDLY One. Mission and out come is much more than A "Mortals Mind" could ever conceive or "Comprehend",nor The Planets or the Planet "they walk on" neither the Sun that lights up the day or the moon that rules the lights of the night. have no idea what we are and purpose.; But All Creation including the people both living and dead on earth one day will, know who we are.
For the world do not know us. Neither the stars, the rivers, the Oceans, the wind, the rain. The Snow, even the Mountains have no idea who we are.Romans 8 (NASB) 1977
19"For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of
THE GLORY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of child birth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING EAGERLY FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY."And since the Whole WORLD do not know who we are! How can they Know who "GOD" is.
How can they Know who "The Christ of GOD is" It is Impossible for a "Finite mind" a mere mortal. To Comprehend That which is "SPIRITUAL" and BORN of GOD."Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message."
yes I am PloughBoy, and I am Carrying The Mail.
Butch5
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If all sin requires punishment, where is forgiveness? Sins that are forgiven aren't punished. That's what forgiveness means.
That's what the doctrine of eternal torment is. That some part of man lives on for eternity in the lake of fire.
KingJ
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Jesus was punished for the sins of those who repent of them Isa 53:5, Heb 10:14.
Those who don't repent face the fire of hell.
KingJ
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Yes, but not ''burn alive''. When we think of that we imagine someone screaming in pain and agony asking for bucket loads of water. This is never the case in hell. No scripture teaches that.
Historically, outside of plagues God uses to get people to repent, God has never tortured anyone. All quick deaths. Now for all eternity some believe He will torture. No. The rich man held an intellectual conversation with Abraham and asked for a drop of water when he was in the flames of Hades.
We know that God gives each according to what they do Rom 2:6, so some can expect longer or shorter sessions in fire. People weep and gnash their teeth in hell because of separation, not because their bodies are on fire Luke 13:28.
Butch5
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It appears you have a somewhat different view than most on this subject. I don't see how one can be in eternal fire and not suffer. I also don't believe the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is about the state of the dead, but rather, it is a judgment against the leadership of Israel. So, I don't see that parable as pertinent to what happens to the dead. Remember, the word hell is not in the original texts. Hades, where the Rich Man is, is the grave. It's translated the grave at least 50% of the time. It should be translated the grave 100% of the time.
Butch5
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Jesus was punished for the sins of those who repent? Where do we find that in Scripture? The wages of sin is death. All sin, all die. If the penalty of sin is eternal death or eternal separation from God, as some claim, Jesus experienced neither. So how did He pay for their sins?
Johann
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Which set of propositions do you bring to the table?
My forte is actually Hebrew and Koine Greek and keep my responses very short, with good reason.
As to Olam, it means everlasting, unless we choose to use our own prepositions and make it sound like something else, that would be eisegesis @Butch5
Not being facetious with you brother.
I study the morphology of biblical words, which is a goldmine for understanding Scriptures.
1. Man CAN suffer eternally.
2. Man is a tripartite being.
3. The psuche/nefesh definitely continues on after death.
Shalom
Johann
Butch5
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It's interesting you mention eisegesis. It's required to hold to those doctrines. I've mentioned a few of the presuppositions I bring to the table. One is that man is a physical being, not a tripartite being, as I pointed out from Scripture. Man cannot suffer eternally, as I pointed out from Scripture. And the nepesh, soul, cannot continue on after death, as I pointed out from Scripture. You've made claims here but haven't given a logical argument to support them.
Studying the morphology of words is beneficial, however, when it leads to incorrect conclusions it suggests that the presuppositions are wrong. It's great to study, we just have to make sure was start from tje correct starting point.
Johann
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Man is tripartite, unless you don't believe in the Triune Godhead.
Yes?
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
αυτος δε ο θεος της ειρηνης αγιασαι υμας ολοτελεις και ολοκληρον υμων το πνευμα και η ψυχη και το σωμα αμεμπτως εν τη παρουσια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου τηρηθειη
1Th 5:23 αυτοςG846 P-NSM δεG1161 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM τηςG3588 T-GSF ειρηνηςG1515 N-GSF αγιασαιG37 V-AAO-3S υμαςG4771 P-2AP ολοτελειςG3651 A-APM καιG2532 CONJ ολοκληρονG3648 A-NSN υμωνG4771 P-2GP τοG3588 T-NSN πνευμαG4151 N-NSN καιG2532 CONJ ηG3588 T-NSF ψυχηG5590 N-NSF καιG2532 CONJ τοG3588 T-NSN σωμαG4983 N-NSN αμεμπτωςG274 ADV ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF παρουσιαG3952 N-DSF τουG3588 T-GSM κυριουG2962 N-GSM ημωνG1473 P-1GP ιησουG2424 N-GSM χριστουG5547 N-GSM τηρηθειηG5083 V-APO-3S
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
But I would concur with Robertson
Your spirit and soul and body (humōn to pneuma kai hē psuchē kai to sōma). Not necessarily trichotomy as opposed to dichotomy as elsewhere in Paul’s Epistles. Both believers and unbelievers have an inner man (soul psuchē, mind nous, heart kardia, the inward man ho esō anthrōpos) and the outer man (sōma, ho exō anthrōpos). But the believer has the Holy Spirit of God, the renewed spirit of man (1Co_2:11; Rom_8:9-11).
..or...
Spirit and soul relate to the nonmaterial part of man. The Bible at times speaks of man as a bipartite being, referred to as composed of "body and spirit" (James 2:26-; 2Cor. 7:1-note) or of "body and soul" (Matt. 10:28). But here, as in several other places (e.g., He 4:12 [note]), man is viewed as tripartite. This raises the thorny problem of what is meant here by spirit and soul. Both terms are used with various shades of meaning in the Scriptures…
The common suggestion that these terms are simply a rhetorical piling up of words for emphasis is rejected by Ellicott with the remark that such a position is "plainly to set aside all sound rules of scriptural exegesis."
Bible students who accept the accuracy of Scripture have always believed that a distinction between the two terms was intended here. If there is no difference between them it is difficult to see how the Spirit of God can distinguish them, as in He 4:12 [note]. That there is a distinction between soul and spirit is clear from Paul's use of the adjectives psuchikos (soulish) and pneumatikos (spiritual) in 1Corinthians 2:14, 15 and 1Cor 15:44.
Note the three Definite Articles in 1 Thess 5.23...
An interesting, biblical read...https://www.preceptaustin.org/1thessalonians_523-24#:~:text=Contact%20Us-,1%20Thessalonians%205%3A23%2D24%20Commentary,-1%20Thessalonians%205
See the heteros viewpoints?
Shalom
Johann
KingJ
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You are stuck on the idea that death is annihilation.
1. Jesus experienced separation from God Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?.
2. Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
3. Jesus died a physical death and was sent to Hades for three days.
All this (point 1, 2 and 3) pleased God and it was an acceptable sacrifice Isa 53:10 for the sins of all mankind John 3:16.
Not all mankind accept Jesus, even though God wishes they would 1 Tim 2:4.
Those who repent of their sins and turn from wickedness open the door to Jesus. Thus, it is correct to say Jesus died for those that repent.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
The penalty for sin has 'never' been literal death. Adam and Eve were excommunicated. The fallen angels, same.
Are you implying that what Jesus did on the cross saves nobody? Your line sounds like a reportable offence. You need to better explain yourself.
Johann
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Beetow
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In several incidents, Jesus is recorded speaking of the afterlife by means of the
Greek word háidēs (a.k.a. Hades) which was doubtless borrowed from Hellenistic
influences prevalent in that day.
Hades was believed to be a conscious afterlife where everybody went when they
died regardless of age, race, gender, or religious preference; which of course
implies that not only was the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 in Hades but so were
Abraham and Lazarus; even Jesus did some time there. (Matt 12:40 & Acts 2:25
31)
Hades is sometimes thought to speak of people's graves, but the correct Greek
word for grave in the New Testament isn't Hades, it's actually mnemeion (mnay-mi'
on), for example:
• Matt 27:52-53 . . And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into
the holy city, and appeared unto many.
• Matt 27:59-60 . . And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean
linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and
he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher, and departed.
• John 11:18 . . Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four
days already.
• John 11:38 . . Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It
was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
• John 12:17 . . The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out
of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
Those are only a smattering of examples from the New Testament where grave is
properly translated from mnemeion. Bible committees that render Hades as grave
do so arbitrarily, i.e. by interpretation rather than by translation.
_
Greek word háidēs (a.k.a. Hades) which was doubtless borrowed from Hellenistic
influences prevalent in that day.
Hades was believed to be a conscious afterlife where everybody went when they
died regardless of age, race, gender, or religious preference; which of course
implies that not only was the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 in Hades but so were
Abraham and Lazarus; even Jesus did some time there. (Matt 12:40 & Acts 2:25
31)
Hades is sometimes thought to speak of people's graves, but the correct Greek
word for grave in the New Testament isn't Hades, it's actually mnemeion (mnay-mi'
on), for example:
• Matt 27:52-53 . . And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into
the holy city, and appeared unto many.
• Matt 27:59-60 . . And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean
linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and
he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher, and departed.
• John 11:18 . . Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four
days already.
• John 11:38 . . Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It
was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
• John 12:17 . . The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out
of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
Those are only a smattering of examples from the New Testament where grave is
properly translated from mnemeion. Bible committees that render Hades as grave
do so arbitrarily, i.e. by interpretation rather than by translation.
_
Johann
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Tombs (3419)(mnemeion from mneme = memory, remembrance) literally means a memorial and then a monument to commemorate the dead (Mt 23:29), but most often referred to a tomb, grave or sepulcher. The first NT use describes "demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs" (Mt 8:28), the second Jesus' rebuke of the Jewish religious leaders who were "hypocrites" building "the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous" who they would have willingly murdered,(Mt 23:29, 30), the third describes the tombs opened and dead rising when Jesus died (Mt 27:52, 53), the fourth describes Jesus' burial tomb (Mt 27:60). Most uses refer to the tomb in which Jesus' dead body was laid - Mt 27:60; Mt 28:8; Mk 15:46; 16:2, 3, 5, 8; Lk 23:55; 24:1, 2, 9, 12, 22, 24; John 19:42; 20:1-4, 6, 8, 11 Acts 13:29.
Tombs (3418)(mnema from mnaomai = to remember) is literally a memorial, a sign of remembrance” for the dead, and so monument for the dead; more generally grave, tomb, sepulcher. A monument intended to preserve the memory of some person or thing.
Gilbrant - The Jews commonly used at least two types of tombs. First, there was the common burying ground used for the poor or stranger. Not every town had its own such burial place, resulting in funeral processions to carry the dead some distance (Luke 7:12ff.). Second, there were private family tombs in a cave, usually located in a garden of the rich or moderately well-to-do. Inscriptions were made on stones placed over the vaults and were thus “a sign of remembrance.” The grave or tomb was marked by a stone and kept whitened in order to warn the passerby against defilement (Matthew 23:27; see Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 2:316). In Mark 5:3 (and parallel Luke 8:27) the demoniac of the Gerasenes was living among the tombs. This was considered a sign of madness. Also, uncleanness and unclean spirits were thought to rule over the dead (Michel, “mnēma,” Kittel, 4:680).
Just means a sepulcher or tomb.
Interestingly....
What does this Messianic Psalm teach?
Christ ascended - after His victory on Cross
He led captives a host of captives
He gave gifts to men (The Holy Spirit Who then distributes the gifts as He wills).
Note: Regarding "Let captive a host of captives" Some think that Hades (the place of the dead which corresponds to the OT word Sheol) was divided into 2 compartments (as suggested by the passage in Lu 16:19-32. This compartmentalization had been taught by the pagan Greeks, in the apocryphal book of Enoch and by Jewish tradition). There is no consensus among conservative evangelical scholars as to whether Hades had 2 compartments. However, this teaching was widely held by the early church fathers who also taught that after His death Christ descended to Hades and that He set free the OT believers from the "cool" side of Hades (cf Luke 16:19-32). This teaching became incorporated into the Apostle's Creed but again to be fair and balanced, we must realize that there is no absolute consensus on these issues. This is not an issue that determines our salvation so we have to remember Paul's exhortation to be diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. We can agree to disagree amicably and we can look forward to the glorious day when faith becomes sight and we no longer look through a mirror dimly! There is an interesting passage from Psalms one of the sons of Korah writing that…
Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem (release upon payment of ransom price) my soul from the power (hand) of Sheol (Lxx = Hades); For He will receive me. Selah. (Comment: One might use a passage like this to support that when Christ paid the ransom on the Cross, it was then that the souls of the righteous were released from the power of Sheol/Hades. Alternatively one could still say that when the OT saint died, he got "credit" for the ransom payment and was released from Sheol's power so that he did not even have to go there. So it still does not resolve the issue of whether OT saints went to Sheol when they died or went to be with God immediately.) Compare the interesting passages below…
Psalm 86:13 For Thy lovingkindness toward me is great, and Thou hast delivered (Lxx translates with rhuomai = deliver out of great danger) my soul from the depths of Sheol.
(Brenton's translation of the Septuagint - LXX) Psalm 94:17 If the Lord had not helped me, my soul had almost sojourned in Hades.
In view of the fact that Hades is used in the Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word Sheol in the OT, if you want more insight consider studying all of the OT passages that utilize Hades for Sheol.
Ephesians 4:9; 4:10 How does Paul explain He ascended?
First He descended
To lower parts of earth
What are the 2 (there are more than 2) most common interpretations of "to the lower parts of earth"?
1) Lower, earthly region = to the earth = incarnation
Note the NIV rendering (remember the NIV is in part a paraphrase so the way it is rendered will be reflective the translator's favorite interpretation - just another reason to consider using a more literal version like NASB, ESV, NKJV, KJV!) Here is the NIV…
Eph 4:9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
Notice how the translators have added a comma (not in the original Greek). By adding the comma how does it affect your interpretation? Clearly it favors a descent from heaven to earth in terms of incarnation and doesn't leave much room for interpreting it as #2. I'm not saying the NIV is wrong, but I am saying that it lends a definite bias to the passage and you as a good Bereans need to be aware of that fact ("caveat emptor"!) Another paraphrase (which I think is overall one of the better paraphrases available - but only as an adjunct to a more literal rendition) is the New Living Translation which overtly interprets the passage for the reader. Here is the NLT rendering…
Eph 4:9 "Notice that it says "he ascended." This means that Christ first came down to the lowly world in which we live." (NLT)
2) Below the earth = To Hades (as discussed above)
1 Peter 3:19 What did Jesus do in context of His crucifixion?
Jesus in spirit made proclamation to spirits in prison – suggests Christ descended to Hades. But does it say "Hades"? No, it doesn't so this passage is (voluminously) debated as to what Peter meant. Remember every passage has only one legitimate interpretation (many applications) even if we don't all agree. Those who advocate that Christ descended to Hades after His death and burial, utilize this passage to support their interpretation. Again this is one of those areas that we seek to be diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit!
Acts 2:27,31: What does Peter teach regarding Hades in his first sermon?
God will not abandon (leave) Jesus soul to Hades. Remember that Hades means (NIV translates it as grave)
Here are the verses compared in a more literal translation (NAS) and a paraphrase (so called dynamic paraphrase, the NIV)…
NASB…
Acts 2:27 BECAUSE THOU WILT NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW THY HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
NIV…
Acts 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
Acts 2:31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.
What difference do you observe between the two translations?
The NAS transliterates the Greek word, while the NIV offers its interpretation as the "grave" here implying simply the place the dead are laid to rest (Christ's tomb in this case). While the NIV may be correct, the transliteration as "Hades" leaves open the option of a place separate and distinct from the grave. As discussed below Hades seems to have three primary meanings in Scripture - the unseen world of the dead, as a metonym for death or as the place in the earth the dead are laid to rest, specifically the grave. Sometimes the context of the passage allows a clear distinction in the intended meaning, but other times the passage is not quite so clear.
So where did Yeshua go when He died, the grave or Hell?
Sheol
Hades
Gehenna
Tartarus
Abyss
Eternal
Perish
A Study of Eternal Punishment | Precept Austin
Shalom
Johann
Beetow
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Very common Hebrew words for "grave" in the Old Testament are qeber (keh'-ber)
and qibrah (kib-raw') for example Gen 23:4
Those two words are very different than the Hebrew word sheol (sheh-ole')
which is located at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:2 + Jonah 2:6)
Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummy of a fish, rather, deep
in the Earth. So in order for Jonah to be in the fish while simultaneously deep in the
Earth was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways, viz:
at some time during his nautical adventure; Jonah was deceased. In point of fact,
Jonah 2:6 tells of his miraculous recovery from putrefaction.
_
and qibrah (kib-raw') for example Gen 23:4
Those two words are very different than the Hebrew word sheol (sheh-ole')
which is located at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:2 + Jonah 2:6)
Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummy of a fish, rather, deep
in the Earth. So in order for Jonah to be in the fish while simultaneously deep in the
Earth was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways, viz:
at some time during his nautical adventure; Jonah was deceased. In point of fact,
Jonah 2:6 tells of his miraculous recovery from putrefaction.
_
Johann
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Which shows Christ went to the grave and not Hell, correct?
PloughBoy
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"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil
I wonder how many more are walking around here, he chose?
American Standard Version
Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
I wonder how many more are walking around here, he chose?
American Standard Version
Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
Johann
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Probably many, but instead of keeping your eyes on them, ...."From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil
I wonder how many more are walking around here, he chose?
American Standard Version
Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Examine. or, Try. Gr. peirazō (S# G3985, Heb_2:18). FS60A, +Gen_3:22, Psa_4:4; *Psa_17:3; Psa_26:2; *Psa_77:6; *Psa_119:59; *Psa_139:23; *Psa_139:24, *Lam_3:40, *Eze_18:28, *Hag_1:5; *Hag_1:7, *1Co_11:28-31, Joh_6:6 g (prove). Joh_8:6, 1Co_9:3, *Gal_6:4, *Heb_4:1; +*Heb_12:15, *1Jn_3:20; *1Jn_3:21, *Rev_2:2; *Rev_2:5; *Rev_3:2; *Rev_3:3.
yourselves. FS101, +Deu_32:42, The Hyperbaton by which the pronoun heautous, yourselves, is placed at the beginning of the sentence (the object before the subject), shows the emphasis which is to be placed upon it, and tells us that this is the serious irony of a grieved heart, and not a general command. These Corinthian saints, having been beguiled by the Jewish enemies of the apostle to question his apostleship, actually sought a proof of Christ speaking in him! So he meets their questionings with another question: Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me...YOURSELVES examine ye, if ye are in the faith; YOURSELVES prove ye. Know ye not that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be reprobates?" The answer to this question, thus ironically put, would prove them to be the seals of his ministry, and the real proof of his apostleship. Here is no command for the saints today, no admonition to practice continual self-examination and introspection, to see whether they are in the faith; for Christ is in them. Read the words in connection with the context, and the force of this solemn Irony will be at once seen: and it will be used no more to vex and perplex God’s dear children, by taking words which refer to their state to upset their standing, which is perfect and complete "in Christ" (F/S 812).
whether. or, if. FS184A, 1Co_15:2, 1Co_16:13, Gal_2:20.
in the faith. 1Co_9:2; *+1Co_16:13, +**Col_1:23; +*Col_2:7, *1Ti_2:15, Tit_1:13; Tit_2:2, 1Pe_5:9.
prove your own selves. +*Pro_14:15; Pro_16:25, Son_7:12, **1Co_11:19; **1Co_11:28, Gal_6:4, *Heb_6:9 note. Jas_1:25, +*2Pe_1:8.
Know. Gr. epiginōskō, +Mat_11:27, Rom_6:3, +*1Co_3:16; *1Co_6:2; 1Co_6:15; 1Co_6:19; *1Co_9:24, *Jas_4:4.
Jesus Christ. *2Co_6:16, Joh_6:56; *Joh_14:23; *Joh_15:4; Joh_15:5; *+Joh_17:23; Joh_17:26, *Rom_8:9; *Rom_8:10, *Gal_2:20; *Gal_4:19, Eph_2:20-22; *Eph_3:17, +*Col_1:27; Col_2:19, **2Ti_1:12, 1Pe_2:4-5, *1Jn_3:24.
is in you. 2Co_12:2, Joh_14:17; Joh_14:20.
except. or, if not in some respect. FS184A, 1Co_15:2.
reprobates. Gr. adokimos [S# G96: Rom_1:28, 1Co_9:27 (castaway). 2Co_13:5-7, 2Ti_3:8, Tit_1:16, Heb_6:8 (rejected)]. *2Co_10:18, 2Co_13:6-7, *Jer_6:30, +*Rom_1:28, *+1Co_9:27 g. +*2Ti_3:8, *Tit_1:16, *Heb_6:8 g.
We need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and not "work" on others salvation.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
The Lord knoweth them that are his (ἔγνω κύριος τοὺς ὄντας αὐτοῦ)
The first inscription: God knows his own. Comp. Num_16:5; 1Co_13:12. For ἔγνω knoweth, see on Gal_4:9. Them that are his, his ἐκλεκτοὶ chosen; see 2Ti_2:10; Tit_1:1; Rom_8:33; Col_3:12; 1Pe_2:9 : Rev_17:14. Not, however, in any hard, predestinarian sense. Comp. Joh_10:14; Mat_7:23; Luk_13:25, Luk_13:27.
Shalom
Johann
Beetow
Active
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- Apr 19, 2020
- Messages
- 2,538
• Zech 1:5 . .Where are your forefathers now? And the prophets, do they live
forever?
My own father is gone, and the great preacher Billy Graham; he's gone too. My
favorite rock and roll guitar player during the years I was a teen-ager was Chuck
Berry. He's gone. When I was a sophomore in high school, me and a buddy went to
see "The Blob" starring a rather unknown actor at the time named Steve McQueen.
He's gone. My eldest brother entered the Catholic priesthood and anon became a
Friar. He's gone. My bestest friend ever, whom I'd known since the second grade in
elementary school is gone too.
There's hardly a day goes by without someone passing away that at one time was
very important to me; a constant reminder that nobody lives forever and neither
will I. At my current age of 78, I'll be passing away not too long from now. Most of
my life has already been lived and I'm in the home stretch; heading for the exit.
When I was a youngster, life's horizon seemed forever far away; but now, looking
at my wasting body, it seems I'm walking on the horizon's edge.
_
forever?
My own father is gone, and the great preacher Billy Graham; he's gone too. My
favorite rock and roll guitar player during the years I was a teen-ager was Chuck
Berry. He's gone. When I was a sophomore in high school, me and a buddy went to
see "The Blob" starring a rather unknown actor at the time named Steve McQueen.
He's gone. My eldest brother entered the Catholic priesthood and anon became a
Friar. He's gone. My bestest friend ever, whom I'd known since the second grade in
elementary school is gone too.
There's hardly a day goes by without someone passing away that at one time was
very important to me; a constant reminder that nobody lives forever and neither
will I. At my current age of 78, I'll be passing away not too long from now. Most of
my life has already been lived and I'm in the home stretch; heading for the exit.
When I was a youngster, life's horizon seemed forever far away; but now, looking
at my wasting body, it seems I'm walking on the horizon's edge.
_
Johann
Member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2022
- Messages
- 380
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
How I wish we all can say this!
shalom
Johann
