What is... the "church"?

[Brother-Paul]

To pick up on the last 3 posts above and previous items discussed I sum up as follows:

It is very clear...

The church, the ekklesia, is not and never has been a building

The church, the ekklesia, is only the born again souls.

The church, the ekklesia, does not include the unsaved that may come together to worship.

The church, the ekklesia, can only be those called out of this world, called by God, those who are born again from above.

It is therefore right to say, the church meets at such a place, but the church is only the saved souls.

It is wrong to say the congregation is the church the ekklesia if it includes unsaved souls.

Knowing this and preaching it in Love is important, as is all Truth from The Word.

Sadly many don't even expound The Word of John 3:3.5.7 let alone John 3:1-21

The CHURCH, our Lord's Church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ is The Called Out ones.

Shalom

 

[Hekuran]

The more I read this thread and the surrounding texts, the more I am convinced that William Tyndale got it right. He didn't use the word church, opting instead for congretation - or in olde English 'cogregacion'.

'to the intent that now vnto the rulars and powers in heven myght be knowe by the cogregacion ye many folde wisdome of god' Ephesians 3:10.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The more I read this thread and the surrounding texts, the more I am convinced that William Tyndale got it right. He didn't use the word church, opting instead for congretation - or in olde English 'cogregacion'.

'to the intent that now vnto the rulars and powers in heven myght be knowe by the cogregacion ye many folde wisdome of god' Ephesians 3:10.

Ephesians 3:10 (NKJV)
to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church <G1577 ekklesia – congregation, called out> to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

Might be know by the ekklesia, the congregation the called out.

It is clear brother, same translation from G1577.

 

[Hekuran]

The church, the ekklesia, does not include the unsaved that may come together to worship.

I am seeing this repeated again and again and again, but I don't know the biblical basis for this statement.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I am seeing this repeated again and again and again, but I don't know the biblical basis for this statement.

It has been explained earlier brother.

The Church, the ekklesia consists of called out, born again, saved souls

Some say my church, referring to the building, they do not have a church, only Jesus has a church.

Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build MY church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

[The Church, ekklesia is the Lords - My Church]

Now to reply to your question regarding ... The church, the ekklesia, does not include the unsaved that may come together to worship.

If a certain place of worship has 200 people in the congregation, lets say 50 are not born again, according to the 115 references to Church, churches or assemblies, translated from G1577 - Only the born again from above are the church.

The congregation may be 200 souls, but the church is only the saved souls, the called out ones.

The scriptures confirming this is all clearly laid out in the posts in this thread earlier today.

We should all aim to be right with God, everything I shared is from searching the True meaning of words from the scriptures, not from myself.

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

The congregation may be 200 souls, but the church is only the saved souls, the called out ones.

The scriptures confirming this is all clearly laid out in the posts in this thread earlier today.

Again, I respectfully disagree. There was a wicked man removed out of "the church" in 1 Cor 5.
Perhaps everyone in at least 5 of the 7 churches was told to repent or...
He will make war against them.. (gee, I wonder who will win?)
He will spit them out of His mouth.
He will throw them on a bed of pestilence.. etc...

... why would they all need to repent, if they were already all saved?

Sorry, but it doesn't sound like they were saved to me.

In your "brother" sins against you. (Can he be my my "brother" if he isn't in the church?)
If he doesn't listen to "the church"... then have nothing to do with him.
Why would it say church here? Would unbelievers listen to the church? Would the church chastise an unbeliever?

Your "clearly" laid out scriptures seem to include the unsaved, more often than not.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Again, I respectfully disagree. There was a wicked man removed out of "the church" in 1 Cor 5.
Perhaps everyone in at least 5 of the 7 churches was told to repent or...
He will make war against them.. (gee, I wonder who will win?)
He will spit them out of His mouth.
He will throw them on a bed of pestilence.. etc...

... why would they all need to repent, if they were already all saved?

Sorry, but it doesn't sound like they were saved to me.

In your "brother" sins against you. (Can he be my my "brother" if he isn't in the church?)
If he doesn't listen to "the church"... then have nothing to do with him.
Why would it say church here? Would unbelievers listen to the church? Would the church chastise an unbeliever?

Your "clearly" laid out scriptures seem to include the unsaved, more often than not.

Greetings Ray

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (NKJV)
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

This is not a warning to the world, it is a warning to the saved, those who are born again from above and should know better.

Back to the example, if a place of worship has a congregation of 200, and 50 are unsaved souls, the church is only 150 souls, because the church, the ekklesia are the born again, called out ones.

According to The Word and the meaning of G1577 translation, the 50 unsaved souls, are not part of the true church, they belong to sin, the world and the devil. The church, the ekklesia is translated from the Strong number G1577 as church, ekklesia – congregation, called out ones

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

.. why would they all need to repent, if they were already all saved?

Because, as Paul states, it is the brothers in the church, the saved, that are committing the sins.

Separate the sheep from the wolves, the saved from the unsaved Ray, G1577 makes clear which are the saved, which are the curch and it isn't the unsaved amongst the saved.

 

[Brother-Paul]

... why would they all need to repent, if they were already all saved?

Sorry, but it doesn't sound like they were saved to me.

In your "brother" sins against you. (Can he be my my "brother" if he isn't in the church?)
If he doesn't listen to "the church"... then have nothing to do with him.
Why would it say church here? Would unbelievers listen to the church? Would the church chastise an unbeliever?

Your "clearly" laid out scriptures seem to include the unsaved, more often than not.

Your brother is in the church Ray, that is the point, Paul is saying do not keep company with your brother who is sinning...

So we are not just to separate ourselves from the world, God did that when he called us and we came to Him through Jesus, we are also to separate ourself from brothers who do these sinful acts.

v11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.

 

[Brother-Paul]

... why would they all need to repent, if they were already all saved?

Sorry, but it doesn't sound like they were saved to me.

Hi Ray, sorry another post, but you make it sound like saved souls don't sin, I say that in love brother, but something else has just come to me I would like to share...

QUOTE="Brother-Paul, post: 364182, member: 30622"]
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (NKJV)
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
[/QUOTE]


As we can see clearly it is the brothers here who are sinning, not the unsaved they are already IN SIN.

Now this makes me wonder and I share it to see what others my think, I don't intent to drift from the scriptures discussed about the ekklesia, but if we see the ekklesia right then the things we are talking about here certainly makes me think.

As we know we are warned of the falling away of the church in the latter days we are told there will be a falling away in the church. We are expecting, based on recent discussions on the forum that the church falling away will be church numbers, I do not think that is the reason for the falling away, could it not be that the falling away, of the brethren, the saved souls, is due to sins like these mentioned by Paul to the believers at that time.

The church is the ekklesia, the called out ones, the saved souls, but if the saved souls fall into sin, then they are falling away from the church, falling away from our Lord who is head of the church, falling away from God.

Sorry to add another angle here but I felt the need to share this, especially looking at what the church, ekklesia is from the translation of Strong G1577 and then your quote of 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 above

What are your thoughts.

 

[Hekuran]

And yet a few sentences later Paul writes:

Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 6:9

 

[B-A-C]

What are your thoughts.

I could be willing to go with this. Especially with 1 Cor 5 in mind.
I do agree with you on one thing... not ALL unsaved people are in the church. There are people who never heard of Jesus. People who don't want to hear about Jesus, and even people who have
heard of Jesus but reject Him.

Then finally we have those like this individual in 1 Cor 5, and the churches of Rev 2 and 3. What makes them "in the church" if they are sinners? If sinners are "in the church" why don't we just
count ALL sinners as members of the church? Because I think you're on to something here. These aren't just any sinners, they aren't just any unbelievers.
They are probably those who "used" to be saved. People who know about Jesus. People who accepted Him at one time even. Certainly the people in the 7 churches knew who Jesus was.

As you mentioned we know some will "fall away from the faith". Some "believe for a while, and then fall away" Some are partakers of the Holy Spirit who "fall away".
Some are stumbling block "in" the kingdom that eventually will be cast out. Some are sons of Abraham and Isaac who are "in" the kingdom but will be cast out.

I believe there is a "grace period". In Revelation Jesus says "I gave her time to repent" to one of the churches. The same with the brother who sins against you in Matt 18.
Talk to him alone, then bring a few other with you, and then tell it to the church... than after you've tried all that, and they still don't listen.. then kick them out.
How do we know if someone is a "good fish" or a "bad fish"? We don't until the end. How do know if someone is a "wheat" or a "tare"? We don't until the end.
Jesus came looking for fruit on the tree for three years, but He didn't cut it down yet.. He said wait and see if it bears fruit next year. There is a grace period.
Some might repent. We don't want to kick them out before they have a chance.

I agree with you on another point also.
If a person never accepts Jesus, they aren't saved. If a person never repents, they will not go to heaven. Even though they might be part of a church group, they
still are not saved.

If after the "grace period" they never accept Jesus. Go ahead and chop the tree down, cast them out, whatever the case might be.
They may even say they still believe in Jesus... like the people in Matt 7:21 or the 5 foolish virgins.

Jesus leaves the 99 to come after these people. He doesn't leave them or forsake them. But just because they are in the field, the kingdom, the church, the flock, .. isn't guarantee.

 

[Brother-Paul]

And yet a few sentences later Paul writes:

Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 6:9

Greetings brother

Chapter 5 is dealing with incest

Chapter 6 is dealing with Lawsuits against believers to verse 12 then sexual immorality.

Each should be read in the right context.

Regarding 1 Cor 6:9

The relationship between verses 8 and 9 is nicely preserved in the niv: the Corinthians ‘do wrong’ (adikeite, v. 8), and wrongdoers (adikoi) will not inherit God’s kingdom.

Paul clearly refers to eschatological and final judgment, and he admonishes believers not to be deceived. They cannot continue to engage in evil and expect a final reward. What we have here is a staple of Paul’s teaching.

He warns the Galatians that those who practise the works of the flesh ‘will not inherit the kingdom of God’ (Gal. 5:21; cf. Eph. 5:5).

In the same way, the Galatians should avoid being deceived, for those sowing to the flesh ‘will reap destruction’ (Gal. 6:8).
Tyndale Commentaries - 1 Corinthians, 2018

The warning is to the brethren, the saved souls, the called out ones.

 

[B-A-C]

So we are not just to separate ourselves from the world, God did that when he called us and we came to Him through Jesus, we are also to separate ourself from brothers who do these sinful acts.

Eventually, if they don't repent... yes. Technically I think Paul says "don't" separate yourselves from the world. But separate yourself from a "so-called brother".
We are already called out from the world, why would we be called out to be separate from the church?

 

[B-A-C]

Hi Ray, sorry another post, but you make it sound like saved souls don't sin, I say that in love brother, but something else has just come to me I would like to share...

Let me make a distinction here. I don't think Christians are perfect. I have certainly sinned since I was saved. Many times.
But I do think there is a difference between "living in sin", and sinning sometimes. I think there is a difference between "practicing sin" and making a mistake sometimes.
I think there is a difference between willful, wanton sin, and stumbling sometimes. I do believe there a line we can cross. I do believe we can fall short of grace.
I don't like the phrase "lose your salvation". It makes it sound like I accidentally lost my car keys. No I think some people over a period of time get sucked back into
the world, back into sinful lifestyles. It's a "slow fade" as the song says. They didn't "lose" their salvation, they made a choice to give it up.

Some are like the prodigal son, they come back.
Other's are like the dog that returns to his vomit, or the pig that return to the pig sty, or the 5 foolish virgins, or the salt that loses it's flavor, or the tree that refuses to bear fruit.

 

[B-A-C]

The warning is to the brethren, the saved souls, the called out ones.

If they are saved... why is the warning needed?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Bless you my friend, I am praising the Lord for what he has revealed to us, but it doesn't feel complete in the heart.

I could be willing to go with this. Especially with 1 Cor 5 in mind.
I do agree with you on one thing... not ALL unsaved people are in the church. There are people who never heard of Jesus. People who don't want to hear about Jesus, and even people who have heard of Jesus but reject Him.

I pick up here on what you say Ray, 'not ALL unsaved people are in the church'

I say this in love, There are NO unsaved souls in the church brother. The church is the body of Christ, our past sins have to be washed away to be part of the true church, the ekklesia.

The Church, as we saw in G1577 125 references, all meaning the same, all translation from Greek - The Church is ekklesia, congregations of 'called out' ones.

The True Church never includes unsaved souls, the Body of Christ is only, those called out, born again from above.

Then finally we have those like this individual in 1 Cor 5, and the churches of Rev 2 and 3. What makes them "in the church" if they are sinners? If sinners are "in the church" why don't we just count ALL sinners as members of the church? Because I think you're on to something here. These aren't just any sinners, they aren't just any unbelievers.
They are probably those who "used" to be saved. People who know about Jesus. People who accepted Him at one time even. Certainly the people in the 7 churches knew who Jesus was.

I think the problem is here Ray, when we become part of the church, the ekklesia, the body of Christ, all our PAST sins are forgiven, we are to practice righteousness. But the devil knows our weaknesses, he know how to attack us, he knows when to attack us, the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

So brothers in the Church, that is saved, called out souls only, can fall into sin, that is what Paul is addressing and what he is warning the brethren about. They come to Christ, repent and become born again, then they sin, they think they are not seen, it may be a sexual sin which is very addictive, like a drug, they then make excuses that themselves, they fall deeper into sin, all the time they are 'falling away' from God, 'falling away' from the church, the ekklesia which is born again only. They were sinners, they repented and became saved, there 'past sins' washed away, how grateful we should be but some no matter what will succumb to past ways, the devil temps, they sin. Saved souls are not sinners, but they do sin, and can sin again, each time falling away from God, falling away from th Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As you mentioned we know some will "fall away from the faith". Some "believe for a while, and then fall away" Some are partakers of the Holy Spirit who "fall away".
Some are stumbling block "in" the kingdom that eventually will be cast out. Some are sons of Abraham and Isaac who are "in" the kingdom but will be cast out.

I believe there is a "grace period". In Revelation Jesus says "I gave her time to repent" to one of the churches. The same with the brother who sins against you in Matt 18.
Talk to him alone, then bring a few other with you, and then tell it to the church... than after you've tried all that, and they still don't listen.. then kick them out.
How do we know if someone is a "good fish" or a "bad fish"? We don't until the end. How do know if someone is a "wheat" or a "tare"? We don't until the end.
Jesus came looking for fruit on the tree for three years, but He didn't cut it down yet.. He said wait and see if it bears fruit next year. There is a grace period.
Some might repent. We don't want to kick them out before they have a chance.

I agree with you on another point also.
If a person never accepts Jesus, they aren't saved. If a person never repents, they will not go to heaven. Even though they might be part of a church group, they
still are not saved.

If after the "grace period" they never accept Jesus. Go ahead and chop the tree down, cast them out, whatever the case might be.
They may even say they still believe in Jesus... like the people in Matt 7:21 or the 5 foolish virgins.

So true brother.

Now, may I come back to the church, the ekklesia, the called out ones. I know this has caused some, you for sure, real heart ache, I have felt it my friend. Allow me to try put everything said so far, which was 100% scripture with correct translation.

According the The Word, the church is the ekklesia, the called out ones, the saved souls. NO unsaved souls that is the Church, My Church Jesus says in Matthew.

Now when we see the church in this way, exactly as scripture puts it we must rule out the following.

1 - The church is not a building, it never was, it never will be. It is an error introduced by the RCC.

2 - The church is only born again, called out believers, they are the church, they are the ekklesia, saved souls worldwide.

3 - Following on from what we are told is the church, it is clear what is not the church, the unsaved souls. A congregation may have saved and unsaved souls but, the church, the ekklesia, is only the saved souls.

4 - Just because a person is called out, accepts the calling and is saved doesn't mean they won't sin, we all do Ray don't we. But we are not sinners they are the unsaved souls who have sin on sin on sin. But a saved soul does sin (singular not plural) and our Lord forgives us, we are to practice righteousness, and avoid sinning. But some saved souls will be tempted by the devil, some will fall to the flesh, God will forgive them but not is they 'practice them' e.g. do them over and over again. Now this is what Paul is saying in the passage, it also brings forth another situation Ray, OSAS!!!

Please do not see what we say here as a threat to the local church, there is no need, so long as we understand what a church is and if they are not part of the ekklesia, not born anew they are 'not yet' saved. That brings us to the necessity to preach all of John 3:1-21 in love me thinks.

Why should we be frightened or concerned, about preaching the Truth, is it not meant to ruffle a few feathers and bring people to repentance and Christ Jesus our Lord and salvation in His Name.

Preach it, fear not, that is what my heart is shouting Ray.

 

[Brother-Paul]

If they are saved... why is the warning needed?

Because being saved doesn't mean we are goody goodys, it means some will sin, some will do repetitive sin.

The devil attacks those coming to Christ, he doesn't stop when we are saved, he knows a person weakness, he will temp us again and again when we least expect it. The devil tried to tempt Jesus, that is a sure sign brother he will tempt the ekklesia. Some of us are in Christ, protected through the blood of Christ, we have the whole armour of God on, why? To protect us from the prowling wicked one, the enemy of souls. If the devil then cannot get at us he will attack our families our loved ones. We see this daily brother.

Being saved doesn't save us from sinning.

I realise this is an example of the Jews but I feel it right to share it now as an example.

The Jews came to Jesus to try trick Him, as they did often, they brought before Him a woman they said was found in the act of adultery. Really!

The main point is that Jesus knew they were sinners, the same can be for saved Christians. He put His head down and said, let he who has not sinned through the first stone, they all walked away from the eldest to the youngest.

There are saved souls who have committed adultery etc with another. We are not exempt from temptation, many a minister has had sex with a member of the parish, we do not need to know God does know, but we do need to be aware of this and what Paul is saying to the believers, born again souls, the church, the ekklesia.

Bless you

 

[Hekuran]

A congregation may have saved and unsaved souls but, the church, the ekklesia, is only the saved souls.

Man, you've got yourself into a mess here. You seem to be making a distinction between 'ekklesia' and 'congregation'. In fact, 'congregation' or 'assembly' is the best translation for the Greek word 'ekklesia'. There is no Greek word that corresponds to 'church'.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Man, you've got yourself into a mess here. You seem to be making a distinction between 'ekklesia' and 'congregation'. In fact, 'congregation' or 'assembly' is the best translation for the Greek word 'ekklesia'. There is no Greek word that corresponds to 'church'.

Sorry if I wasn't clear here brother,

In the world as it is people think those who go to church, the congregation is the church. Not so

The Truth is that the Church, the ekklesia, is the called out ones, the born again ones, it does not include any unsaved souls. I am referring to the 125 quotes translated from G1577, ekklesia, congregation of call out ones.

G1577 is very clear, the church is only saved souls, born again from above souls, no one unsaved soul.

I have said this many time brother, but these are not my words, they are from scripture correct translations

>>> Strong's Number G1577 Church, is translated ekklesia congregation called out ones. It is there and is there 125 times my friend.

I have also given you the details for the only one reference from Stephens sermon prior to being martyred.

OT Hebrew equivalent is translated - assembly, congregation

NT Greek translation church is - ekklesia, congregation called out

The difference is 'Church' and 'called out'

The OT time of Moses referred to by Stephen could not be 'called out' the church had not been born until Pentecost

I also gave you details confirming NT Church, ekklesia, congregation, called out. 3 words were translated here they are Church, Churches and Assembly 3x

Note also that assembly does not have the same meaning for over 100 occurrences in The Word, it is important to look up the meaning of each, to understand what it is meant in the specific passage and read the passage and true meaning in context.