What Is the Difference Between Pentecostal & Charismatics?

[Sue D.]

Dovegiven -- what country are you from? It IS important to know what the Bible says. The field of Apologetics --to know What you believe and Why you believe it.

One difference between having to learn the manuals for becoming a Park Ranger and having to prove to him that you've read and know all the regulations. Is that - like you commented -- reading the Bible through each year is Not required For salvation. God Does want relationship with us. There aren't a list of do's and don't's included. There ARE those who Want to do their own things to Help along their salvation. Knowing the following the Ten Commandments is an okay thing. But knowing those commandments and following them is Not equal To salvation.

The Great Commission -- Matthew 28 - 19-20?! Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel - baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. THAT is Not part of salvation. That is what every believer is being challenged to Do. Spread the Gospel unto salvation. I was just looking at the Mark 16 passage. Right within the text it says that "Some of the earliest manuscripts do not include vs 9-20. But the Matthew 28 portion is there as a whole.

Just because we don't understand Why doesn't mean it's 'wrong' --- and as for 'no serious Bible commentator has positioned that and remained on a Best Seller author." I don't look at commentaries -- they are simply educated men who have their thoughts / study in print. Popularity doesn't especially indicate accuracy.

Benny Hill Should have been commending God for His healing power. Why should it have taken a year to totally heal?

My mother also had macular degeneration -- she received shots from the Dr. several times. It would help for a while then would start fading -- that was in her 90's. She passed at 98 yrs. of age.

Your comment that even Jesus failed to see results of His healing -- Jesus's healing were instant / complete. We're not really told about any of Jesus' youth.

I'll go back to my first question -- what country are you from.

Most of my life I've been healthy enough to not need much medical help --however, I grew up With medical. My mother was a nurse and my sister was one also.

Dr.s can only work with what a patient shares in medical history -- tests and lab work, etc. are done as needed. And, yes, the U.S. is probably fairly unhealthy. Lots of fast-foods. There's a lot of obesity even amongst kids. Lots of unhealthy drug useage.

Yes, we Also have lots of people asking for prayer when diagnosed with cancer and needing chemo / radiation. Lots of women encounter breast cancer. Some get through it very well and some have more difficulties. Why? Well, we Do live in a fallen world -- more and more cancers, etc. More and more severe weather.

So -- yes, we Do pray for those who have health problems.

Sounds, also, like you're putting a Lot of emphasis on a questionable text in Mark 16 as apposed to Matthew 28.


The term you used "spirit filled Christians" I'd like to comment that All believers -- when they Become a believer -- All receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Which is saying that All Christians Are 'spirit filled'.

Your paragraph concerning Americans who have been warned too much about the spirit world, etc. God's Word warns Everyone about the spirit world. Do not mess around with the spirit world that consists of satan, demons, jiuji boards, etc. don't mess with witches -- spiritists.

Be filled With the Holy Spirit.

A believer Will be given at least one spiritual gift at the time of their salvation to be used within the church body. And there are fruits of the spirit -- love, joy, peace, long-suffering, etc.

 

[TheTruthWithin37]

That seems to be rather arbitrarily comprehensive. I have attended and belonged to several church groups over the years identifying themselves as Pentecostal. I am certain there were always some who strived by surrender to God to obey whatever He had for them to do. But perhaps you have met every one of them to be able to be so certain that none of them are obeying the Lord? How well do you know me?

Can you tell me some things Jesus told his followers to do?

 

[TheTruthWithin37]

Correlating the emotionalism, in this case of Pentecostal to 1 Cor 6:9-10 and what it states to specifically "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate" is just plain wrong. So, you might have had a bad experience in one of their churches, or feel after study of how Pentecostalism started that it is wrong. I just won't toss Scripture out there to see if it sticks, because you might as well state this for every church. Keep searching for that perfect church/denomination, but something tells me you won't find it, if you're not a part of it already.

All churches in the world wont lead me to Jesus. Most are lead by emotions and not a rational mindset. I dont see any churches telling people what Jesus ACTUALLY said

 

[Christ4Ever]

All churches in the world wont lead me to Jesus. Most are lead by emotions and not a rational mindset. I dont see any churches telling people what Jesus ACTUALLY said

Are you getting emotional Brother??? I mean you capitalized "ACTUALLY". :smile:

Who said all churches lead one to Jesus? Are you arguing with yourself now?

As far as "most" are led by emotions, and so by your understanding they do not have a rational mindset. I can't say either way. So, unless you actually do, I'd stay away from accusatory/inflammatory statements like you have made in order to make a point that moves us away from the subject of the thread. If you'd like. Create a thread on the subject.....unless you have already. Then, bring up your point for discussion there and not here.

As far as not seeing any churches telling people what Jesus actually said. Makes me ask you then. You don't go to church? or the church you go to is complicit with those you speak of in not speaking of Jesus???

I think what you're really wanting to express (Correct me if I'm wrong. Which I'm sure you will.), is that many churches do not put into practice the words of Jesus. Keeping in mind that Jesus, really wasn't speaking to churches, but individuals as such. The later books/epistles had churches more in mind in some of their writings, since the faith of Christianity as an assembly was just starting out, and much guidance was needed.

Peace, with the Love of Christ Jesus to you Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Sue D.]

God's Word is the place to start. Find a church that teaches God's Word. And Christ4Ever is saying pretty much what I was going to share.

 

[Lily Miller]

Are you getting emotional Brother??? I mean you capitalized "ACTUALLY". :smile:

Who said all churches lead one to Jesus? Are you arguing with yourself now?

As far as "most" are led by emotions, and so by your understanding they do not have a rational mindset. I can't say either way. So, unless you actually do, I'd stay away from accusatory/inflammatory statements like you have made in order to make a point that moves us away from the subject of the thread. If you'd like. Create a thread on the subject.....unless you have already. Then, bring up your point for discussion there and not here.

As far as not seeing any churches telling people what Jesus actually said. Makes me ask you then. You don't go to church? or the church you go to is complicit with those you speak of in not speaking of Jesus???

I think what you're really wanting to express (Correct me if I'm wrong. Which I'm sure you will.), is that many churches do not put into practice the words of Jesus. Keeping in mind that Jesus, really wasn't speaking to churches, but individuals as such. The later books/epistles had churches more in mind in some of their writings, since the faith of Christianity as an assembly was just starting out, and much guidance was needed.

Peace, with the Love of Christ Jesus to you Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

I think what he was trying to get at here is that churches are different, and they don't really lead you to Jesus, I've been to quiet a few churches and most of them have only led me to the collection plate. I do agree with you @TheTruthWithin37 when you say that Pentecostals pull on the emotions, they have "signs and wonders". I do not believe that he was trying to get away from the actual topic which was addressed.

It was asked, "what is the difference" he's tell you a difference, he is saying that Pentecostals usually go after signs and wonders and they pull on emotions. While I was reading this thread I was able to see the difference; because I have actually seen the difference that he is talking about here.

There is no reason to be rude to one another on this thread, or any thread for that matter. We are all on the same team, we just have different opinions.

I would agree that the "signs and wonders" (aka emotionalism) is a big difference, even though there are Pentecostal Churches which don't do the rolling on the floor and barking like dogs (supposed to be a sign that you have the Holy Spirit) there are plenty of churches/people who don't do that, that have the Holy Spirit. I say it is emotionalism because they do such signs (like in the example I gave above), which show people that's how they get the Holy Spirit, but you don't need to bark like a dog to have the Holy Spirit. It is emotionalism because no one is being rational, it is focused on signs and wonders and having a "feeling" of God touching your heart. (Which by the way, I don't think is bad, I've had God touch my heart many times) I believe that people need to be able to control themselves with a rational mindset, which I haven't really seen much in a Pentecostal Church.

But again, all of this, that I wrote here, is just my opinion.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Lily Miller
As much as I appreciate your input, and your opinion on what he is attempting to communicate which I understand, your response to me has nothing to do with why I have communicated as I have to him/her. To maybe understand it a little you'd have to read our exchanges (#5 his, #9 mine, #23 his, #24 mine). As it is with Scripture, context is important.

His misuse of Scripture (Post #5 ) to support what I'm sure he believes to be true concerning the Pentecostal Churches, is the reason I started this discussion in the first place. I'm not trying to disabuse him that many if not most churches have emotional aspects tied to them. I totally agree with the ones you have identified, barking, laughing, rolling on the floors, and the list can go on. However, one can go to any praise and worship service in just about any church and if emotionalism is the issue, it too can be easily seen regardless of denomination. So, does this make emotionalism wrong? My hope is that he doesn't either.

You believe I was rude to him? Though I don't necessarily agreed with this assessment of yours. I do however, appreciate your honesty. My apologies to him if he saw my communications as being so. I hope you're reading this @TheTruthWithin37

On self-control.....depends on what you mean by self-control. What is acceptable or unacceptable behavior is really what is being discussed here? You've identified some of the extremes, but how about those on a lower key? Say, "Amen", or an "Alleluia" being said so others can hear??? or how about children in the service? Let them cry, or kick them out? How about each person sets their own standard of acceptability?

See, it does and can get nonsensical at times! Probably another reason why we have so many denominations. So, people should go to solid Bible adhering churches, that they can be comfortable with, but not so comfortable that they won't questions. However, the only perfect church I honestly believe that you, me or anyone else will find, is the Body of Christ one. That means wherever two or more are gathered.....we can pray, worship, and study to the Glory of God. Don't need an altar to do this, or a building around us for it. I've had church in a parking lot with other brothers in Christ. Very awesome, and a blessing. We were there for a couple of hours after a long day at work! Which by the way was more time spent there than we spent in the different churches and services we attended the following Sunday!!!! LOL!

As you have said in closing to your post. What I've written here is just my opinion, which is also laced with some years of experience in a variety of churches. Some even seen as cults even!!! In fact my Pentecostal story from childhood I've shared in older postings, still makes me laugh to recall!!!

God bless Sister and hopefully nothing of what I've written has offended you. If it has, I apologize in advance.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Dovegiven]

Correlating the emotionalism, in this case of Pentecostal to 1 Cor 6:9-10 and what it states to specifically "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate" is just plain wrong. So, you might have had a bad experience in one of their churches, or feel after study of how Pentecostalism started that it is wrong. I just won't toss Scripture out there to see if it sticks, because you might as well state this for every church. Keep searching for that perfect church/denomination, but something tells me you won't find it, if you're not a part of it already.

Thanks. Permit me to piggyback your post.
The exact opposite behavior should be expected in an average Pentecostal church concerning open sin. A couple gave up on one of those, visited our church. He smoked cigarettes in "secret" on the job, and drank a glass of wine at home, never doing those things in public. He was spotted buying the wine, turned in to his pastor. After a fact finding meeting he was shunned to the back row of the church. Other members were not allowed to speak to him. He faced a long plan of repentance and restoration. They stayed with us and are active in evangelism.

Before anyone gets fired up, please understand that's why most Christians stay away from Pentecost churches. Folks who long ago adapted to such rules gladly stay. For new Christians such thngs are too stressful trying to get and stay clean. Divorcees, even the innocent one, are banned from serving. But you won't find open sin tolerated there. I can say the Pentecostals and Charismatics and Assemblies of God do share many parallels, the main difference being in the administrations, and the Pentecostal requirement of speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation. They have scriptures to back that up,, citing Acts, especially the saving of the House of Cornelius.

The "barking" phenomenon some claim is sin in a worship service isn't prohibited by scripture in a service. That was in the news out of the Brownsville Revival That being held at the Brownsville Assemblies of God Church in Pensecola, FL, some of our members went there for a week. They heard lots of unknown tongues, which was not unexpected. But the size of the congregation inside and outside was amazing. Ordinarily one or two members engage in tongues at a proper time in a service, or during "high praise" half a congregation or more might worship in tongues in song. But when hundreds shouted praises and worship the sound of that sometimes sounded like barking, some howling, sobbing, wailing, people in all directions on their faces repenting. All of our delegation returned fully healthy and powerfully anointed to serve. It's akin to a mighty revival the old folks in most churches like to remember, wishing there was another.

A pastor that tolerates distasteful interruptions, especially during a sermon, won't last long. He must be anointed to know when to quietly stop interruptions the Spirit didn't initiate. But when allowed and Spirit led, a whole congregation can benefit profoundly, and experience revival. God is able to stop a well prepared sermon to bring people into receiving much needed healing, comforting, deliverance. Every meeting ought to experience some degree of revival, a recharging, filling of the Spirit.

A prayer for all Christians already bearing a measure of faith, and the Holy Spirit indwelling is
Ephesians 3:14-21 (KJV)
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[Sue D.]

There are those who seem to thrive on the unusual -- the intense -- Will draw a crowd. And, honestly -- people ARE 'craving' some sort of 'fix' to our world's situation.

And Biblically -- only 2 - 3 people are to speak in tongues and there Has to be immediate interpretation. In the New Testament , Paul said he'd rather speak in a known language so that everyone around him could be blessed.
That which you're describing is emotionalism -- a preacher leading a crowd to it's heighth of emotion. Is Everyone singing in different languages or the same language. What you're describing sounds more like mass chaos -- even when people are on their faces repenting. And, yes, I'm very skeptical. I spent a few services at a Pentecostal service Many year ago and I grew up in a conservative Baptist church. During the one service, the pastor was doing his best through his preaching to get emotions stirred up. A few people Did respond -- one elderly man started 'mumbling' -- no interpreter was there. Another couple of people were down front doing 'whatever'. On the other hand, in the church I grew up in -- once in a while a person could 'feel' the atmosphere changing -- a ful-ness was in that auditorium, some people Did come to Christ. But the Holy Spirit was using pastor in a special way that morning. So I know -- from experience -- the difference between the two.

Most of life is lived in a down-to-earth way. Most of life is Not on an emotional high. And, yes, we should / we need our spiritual lives recharged on a regular basis. But not on the Energizer Bunny 'high'. We Do need to be in God's Word more than we probably are -- generally speaking. Lots of us go in spirts with our Bible reading. We get distracted by everyday life. Some of us are extroverts and some introverts. And some of us Are more emotional than others. It's how God made us -- unique individuals.

Regarding church discipline -- not done much these days. Scripturally -- when someone is observed doing something that would bring down the reputation of the church body Or bring harm to themselves as believers -- one on one approach is first -- done lovingly, not judgementally. Then - If needed -- the person would be approached by two people, again lovingly. At That point -- people will Probably just opt to leave that church. IF they continue -- probably just to test the waters -- the deacons / pastor are brought in. Sitting down with the person and explaining what the problem is from a Biblical perspective. They Can be dropped from church membership. But -- more importantly is working with the person/ person's to restore them to Biblical obedience. Restore them to fellowship.

Non-members are not permitted to teach or hold an office. My husband did not believe in local church membership but he was allowed to sing in the church choir.

A divorced person would not be allowed to preach -- and depending on the reasons For the divorce and the attitude of the person -- being a leader in an AWANA club would be allowed. I bring up AWANA because that's what Did happen in a church long ago. The young husband had a child in AWANA and one of the leaders was doing a wonderful job of teaching his child. Both of them were AWANA leaders -- that's what eventually got them together as a couple. He was observing her in action working with / teaching his kids.

But to ban a divorced person -- especially when the divorce was not his/ her fault -- from serving. Until When?! It's been said that there really are no innocent parties in a divorce, but I'd tend to disagree. Being divorced and divorcing are two different things. Living in a 'no-fault divorce' state , lands, a spouse can divorce the other just because they met someone who they like better. Or frustration sets in -- the cute little baby gets bigger and and requires More of a different kind of care -- instead of the husband coming home to help care for His kids, he stays out later and later and ........

 

[Bendito]

Many years ago I visited a Pentecostal church because it was very close to my house -- we'd just moved and I wanted to take the kids 'somewhere' and I'd been curious about Pentecostalism.

In That particular church , there was supposed 'speaking in tongues' from an older man sitting with his wife in back of the auditorium. And down front -- there was apparently a 'slaying of the spirit' taking place.

The pastor was using his voice to get everyone 'emotional' and 'let the Spirit take over'. I'd gone for 3 different services and it was the same.

In contrast -- I'd grown up in a very large, Bible-teaching, conservative Baptist church. During some of the services, pastor would be preaching Bible and the presence of the Holy Spirit could be felt. People Were coming down to the front of the church to or already having had accepting Christ as their personal Savior. This was not happening in All the services -- God would be using His Word through the preaching of His Word as He deemed appropriate -- in His time.

And, maybe , in reality Pentecostal church are the same as Charismatic churches. The root word is 'charisma' ?-- more emotionally based. Put much more emphasis on the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues. Sometimes a person who is emotionally worked up will make decisions in the heighth Of emotions that they don't really mean when they are calmer. And some get 'hooked' on wanting an emotional 'high' which is Not healthy. Life is Usually lived on a much less emotional frame of mind.

Easy believism -- dangerous.

It seems to me that both Charismatics and Pentacostals thrive on what I feel is hyperemotionalism. Did you notice? I said. "I feel' that its that way. I say that because of my upbringing where the boys were not allowed to show emotion. Now when things get emotional in a church, or anywhere else, I get very uncomfortable, even where I know the emotion thing I was taught is just garbage.
Both sects, rely on emotional highs to lift the people into faith? I'm not sure why they use it. The bible uses words like joy a lot...giving joyfully, praising God in and for all things also produces an emotional high, and this being the case, I cannot and will not criticize the practice. I really don't know of any real differences between the two though. Two facets on the same gem?

 

[Lily Miller]

@Christ4Ever

I do appreciate your thoughts, and thank you for your input on mine. I do believe that we can all have our own opinions based off of different experiences that we have had, not everyone has had the same experience. I don't believe that what we are talking about here relates to saying "amen" or anything like that, I think people should just say that then having a huge extravagant happening. For instants I have seen people rolling on the floor and barking like dogs and having an 'emotional experience' and if that is what makes them closer with God then I am not going to deny them of that, I am just simply stating an opinion (to me) that I think it is an emotional experience, rather than a rational one. People can go their whole lives being only irrational minded rather than rational minded, (I'm not just talking about Pentecostals here). Anyone can fall victim to it, I know I have several times.

I am not just trying to get down on any emotions, I am trying to get down on the big ones, that stop us from speaking with God rationally. I think that emotions are a good thing, I just believe that people need to be able to determine when emotions are necessary and when they are being led by them, we need to be able to make rational decisions. I think a baby in a congregation crying, or someone saying "amen" does not qualify for what I am talking about, I am taking it to one extreme, not both. You cannot control when a baby is crying, sometimes they are just upset, a baby cannot control it's emotions... Saying "amen" is you just agreeing with something, which I do not believe is irrational or emotionalism. I think you took what I was trying to say a little too far just based on the fact that I am calling out emotionalism when I see people barking like dogs, or rolling around on the floor.

I think what I just laid out makes perfect sense, and I believe getting at little children or people saying "amen" does not make sense at all. Look at the rationality of it. There are a lot of Churches that are based off of emotions and there are Churches who are not based on their emotions, I have seen both of these aspects. I do agree with most of what you addressed to me, especially the part about the perfect Church, there is no perfect Church or denomination, We should all be one denomination, not divided from Christ; but together. We don't need any specific building because when we are together we can fellowship, whether it be at a fast food restaurant, a bowling alley, or a parking lot; we literally have become the Church. I loved hearing your thoughts brother.

 

[Sue D.]

Lily Miller -- people Can get roused into such a state of emotion that it's like they are 'out of control' -- in a frenzy -- the barking like a dog, for instance, the rolling on the floor. That kind of behavior can turn people OFF to God. Are those people possibly trying to get God's attention?! Seems more like they Are genuinely searching for 'something' -- but emotionalism / hyper-emotionalism Is Not the Scriptural way to get to God. The cross of calvary Is -- through the blood of Christ.

Now -- people Can get emotional when they realize what God has done for them on Calvary -- whatever kind of background they've come From.

The idea of all people being the same denomination -- Isn't that what the RCC is Trying to do? The Pope in the Vatican being The Pope. Didn't the various denominations come as a result of the 99 Thesis -- as men were getting into God's Word they were seeing how off / away From God's Word the RCC was getting / had been for a Long time. Thus, the Lutheran Church came into being. The Presbyterians, Methodists. And way down the line -- the Baptists.

The Holy Spirit indwelling people is what makes us brothers and sisters in Christ. Thus, we have the Universal church of believers. And the New Testament brings into existence the local body of believers. Paul's missionary journeys in Asia for starters. The Gospel was presented at the various towns and people accepted or rejected -- the believers would get together regularly / every day to share meals and encourage each other.

Where two or three are gathered together, there the Holy Spirit is also.

A group of believers -- depending on what country is involved -- the culture. There's usually protection from the weather -- plumbing available -- a place to sit. And there are deacons and a pastor/ elder/ bishop as leadership. There are New Testament guidelines for these church positions.

And I realize that you're addressing 'Christ4Ever'.

 

[Bendito]

Lily Miller -- people Can get roused into such a state of emotion that it's like they are 'out of control' -- in a frenzy -- the barking like a dog, for instance, the rolling on the floor. That kind of behavior can turn people OFF to God. Are those people possibly trying to get God's attention?! Seems more like they Are genuinely searching for 'something' -- but emotionalism / hyper-emotionalism Is Not the Scriptural way to get to God. The cross of calvary Is -- through the blood of Christ.

Now -- people Can get emotional when they realize what God has done for them on Calvary -- whatever kind of background they've come From.

The idea of all people being the same denomination -- Isn't that what the RCC is Trying to do? The Pope in the Vatican being The Pope. Didn't the various denominations come as a result of the 99 Thesis -- as men were getting into God's Word they were seeing how off / away From God's Word the RCC was getting / had been for a Long time. Thus, the Lutheran Church came into being. The Presbyterians, Methodists. And way down the line -- the Baptists.

The Holy Spirit indwelling people is what makes us brothers and sisters in Christ. Thus, we have the Universal church of believers. And the New Testament brings into existence the local body of believers. Paul's missionary journeys in Asia for starters. The Gospel was presented at the various towns and people accepted or rejected -- the believers would get together regularly / every day to share meals and encourage each other.

Where two or three are gathered together, there the Holy Spirit is also.

A group of believers -- depending on what country is involved -- the culture. There's usually protection from the weather -- plumbing available -- a place to sit. And there are deacons and a pastor/ elder/ bishop as leadership. There are New Testament guidelines for these church positions.

And I realize that you're addressing 'Christ4Ever'.

That rolling on the floor and barking like a dog stuff is in the spirit of Kundalini. The coiled one. Its demonic and can infect any denomination. Its ugly, undignified and like its serpent name implies, its sneaky, and deceptive. The people who get involved with that are in real deception. That spirit is NOT a Christian spirit. Lily already knows that though. I understood that in her message above.

 

[B-A-C]

what is supposed to be the difference between Pentecostals and Charismatics?

I have been called both most of my life. I don't know if there is any difference on the Pentecostal side, but there seems to be a difference to non-Pentecostals, usually one has a more negative connotation.

Pentecostals are generally those who practice the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:8-10;
The term "charismatic" is not only a Christian term. It simply means someone who is "different in a likeable way". There are secular people who are charismatic.
People that have a way of drawing a crowd around them. But back to the negative side of the gifts, yes they can be abused like anything else.
Some people do these things just to be noticed, or make think people they are "better" than other Christians.

 

[B-A-C]

The idea of all people being the same denomination -- Isn't that what the RCC is Trying to do? The Pope in the Vatican being The Pope. Didn't the various denominations come as a result of the 99 Thesis -- as men were getting into God's Word they were seeing how off / away From God's Word the RCC was getting / had been for a Long time. Thus, the Lutheran Church came into being. The Presbyterians, Methodists. And way down the line -- the Baptists.

It wasn't quite that simple, but close. All of these denominations didn't happen all at once. In fact most didn't even happen in the same generation.
Martin Luther, --1483-1586 is considered the father of the Lutheran church.
John Calvin, --1509-1564 is considered the father of the baptist church. He had a short life, He was a contemporary of Luther.
Jacob Arminius, -- 1560-1609, considered the father of the Dutch Reformed church, was only 4 years old when Calvin died.
John Wesley, --1703-1791 is considered the father of the Methodist church, He wasn't even born until 100 years after Luther was dead.

The Anglican/Presbyterian church has the distinct honor for being known for breaking up with the RCC church over a divorce and remarriage.
In 1534, King Henry the 8th declared himself to be head of the church in England. Shortly afterwards that church declared the arch-bishop of Canterbury to the the head of the church (as opposed to the Pope) - Wikipedia has "some" of this correct. (They are usually pretty biased on religious articles). In fact up until the last 50 years or so... most other
Protestant churches, didn't consider the Episcopalian/Anglican/Presbyterian church a "Protestant" denomination. They were considered just another branch of the RCC church that followed
the arch-bishop instead of the Pope. They still have priests, cardinals, etc... that most other Protestant denominations don't. However most Anglicans/Episcopalians will disagree with this statement and say they are Protestant. If you want to use Luther's 95 Thesis (not 99) as a baseline, the Anglican church continued to follow almost all of these principles for hundreds of years and have really just in the last century or so.. become more "westernized" or reformed if you prefer.

The word Protestant come from "protest", what are we protesting? The RCC church. Again wikipedia gets this mostly wrong. I suspect their definition of protestant was written by an Anglican :smile:

This list continues on today in a manner of speaking. Good or bad, right or wrong, whether anyone likes it or not. It's the way it is.
There have been probably a dozen new churches around here just in my life time. The vineyard church, the harvest church, the Bethel church, hillsong church
all started off a large mega-churches, but have spun-off into denominations of their own.

 

[amadeus2]

Can you tell me some things Jesus told his followers to do?

And that would prove what? I admit that some Pentecostals are disobedient, as are some Catholics, as are some Baptists, as are some Methodists, as are some Presbyterians, as are some non-denominationalists, etc. We are not able to pinpoint the errors of others like this, unless God is revealing them all to us personally. This is why He alone always can correctly makes all of the judgments.

 

[Sue D.]

Bottom line is that God wants relationship with us which is made possible through Jesus Christ's shed blood on the cross.

There Are guidelines -- to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and our neighbor as ourselves.

Remembering that the body of the believer is the temple of God -- we are to honor our bodies with what we put in to it and where we take it. There's song for little kids that applies to Everyone. Oh be careful little eyes what we see, feet where we go, and be careful little hands what we do. For the Father up above is looking down in love, so, be careful little eyes , etc, what we do.

Whatever we do or say -- do it unto the Lord -- to the glory of God.

What so ever things are true, honest, etc. think on these things , etc.

And there is the principle that people don't especially like -- God made them male and female. It is an abomination to God / putrid to Him/ for men to lie with other men and women with other women in the same way that man and woman lie together. And that God puts men and women together within marriage to make the next generation / family. The sexual intimacy is meant to be saved special for marriage. And marriage is meant to last until death of a spouse. And , no, that does Not give a spouse license to kill the other spouse out of anger, etc. That means their Natural death.

We Are to share the Gospel unto salvation with all who are willing to listen. We Are to read our Bible regularly and pray. We Are to meet with other believers of like faith, practice.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

The term you used "spirit filled Christians" I'd like to comment that All believers -- when they Become a believer -- All receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Which is saying that All Christians Are 'spirit filled'.

Your paragraph concerning Americans who have been warned too much about the spirit world, etc. God's Word warns Everyone about the spirit world. Do not mess around with the spirit world that consists of satan, demons, jiuji boards, etc. don't mess with witches -- spiritists.

Be filled With the Holy Spirit.

A believer Will be given at least one spiritual gift at the time of their salvation to be used within the church body. And there are fruits of the spirit -- love, joy, peace, long-suffering, etc.

Thank you for sharing that since many believers today believe they can continually receive an infilling of the Holy Spirit when they are always Spirit-filled since salvation as a testimony that they are saved; Matthew 9:17 KJV Thus any testimony to the contrary is denying the truth in His words, and voiding faith in Him. That is why believers are to NOT believe every spirit but test them by knowing the Holy Spirit is in them since salvation ( John 14:16-17 ) so they can KNOW that spirit coming over them later on in life as a saved believer is NOT the Holy Spirit!!! 1 John 4:1-4 KJV

This was prophesied that many believers will depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils so when you see believers calling for the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them, again and again and again after many sensational signs in the flesh, that is them being in hypocrisy by saying yeah He is in them, but somehow they are receiving Him again as if He is not in them. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

If a believer went to a medium to open themselves up to receiving spirits, it is amazing how many Pentecostals and Charismatics will be all over that believer in correcting and rebuking that believer, but yet they fail to see that they are doing the same thing by believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign when He has been in them since they had first come to & believed in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel.

Only an adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, so I can only pray that they will repent and return to their first love and rest in them as Spirit-filled because 1 John 4:3-4 places any spirit outside of us in the worship place as the spirit of the antichrist. That is why in Luke 13:24-30 KJV Jesus rebukes those who claim they have eatened and drunkened in His Presence as that will apply to even those who claim feeling His Presence in the worship place at communion. These phenomenon are seducing spirits that seek to share in the church's focus on the Son in worship to draw it away even for a moment to seek their presence in the assembly, and if possible, break thru to them to make them feel like they are receiving the "Holy Spirit" when it is not the Holy Spirit at all.

Since the Holy Spirit will ALWAYS point to the Son in worship, then believers ought to know when it is not the Holy Spirit that is trying to get their attention by leading believers into seeking to feel them in the worship place.

Many believers are offended by this point of truth, but once they remove the line of discernment, how can they test for the spirits of the antichrist in the world outside of us if we believe the Holy Spirit would even bother to be felt outside of us in the worship place? What for when He dwells in us by faith? So by knowing the scripture that His words testify that we will know Him by Him dwelling in us and not by how the world knows spirits by "seeing" them in the world, we can test the spirits outside of us as not the Holy Spirit at all but the spirit of the antichrist.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Something to take to the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer about in these latter days when faith is hard to find.

 

[Dovegiven]

What I'm reading above is strong evidence to me that if Jesus paid his initial return to your church, not one person would show an emotion, but would sit there like a stump afraid of a little emotion, being taught men don't weep or shout for joy. Pentecostals and related show more addiction to Jesus like when Solomon dedicated the Temple. The people were highly emotional then, as was appropriate, and that exuberance is possible to experience now wherever God shows up. Most charismatic, pentecostal-like meetings are not at all characterized as overtly emotional, but are often a bit lively. Sometimes the meeting is somber. Many of those congregations are populated by former Baptists like me who longed to be willing to worship God on my face before others. In a Baptist church that person will likely be advised to see a psychiatrist. Paul's conversion experience would be rejected as devilish. The crucifiction of Jesus can be read with dry eyes in many congregations of all denominations, but not unemotionally in a spirit filled meeting.

The idea of being spirit filled as extra to being given a measure of the Spirit, a seal of God, is biblical. Folks denying that are free to do without that benefit, and are likely people scared out of their wits to go street witnessing or standing up to give a devotional on short notice, lacking power, knowledge and wisdom, not fans of Bible reading and study, having to use an index to locate a book in the Bible, though barely saved by the blood of Jesus as though by fire. None of such problems mark churches where being spirit filled accepts speaking in tongues, where interpretation is given.

Anyone familiar with what really happened at the Brownsville revival would not question the experiences of 2.5 million attendees over a 5 year period. 200,000 were born again. Thousands of visiting pastors went home to enjoy their own revivals. Would you have been offended watching the 120 believers in Acts be filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues, ending with 3000 new believers? Might you have only believed what the Jerusalem newspapers had to say about that meeting? There is a great purpose for tongues spoken in a meeting.
1 Corinthians 14:22 (KJV)
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
The believers understand and are patient with that, knowing God uses that gift to ewake up dead unbelievers. Words understood are for Christians. Tongues are aimed at the lost, just as in Acts 2
Once they come out of their fog they can respond then handle prophecying, proclamation of the word. Tongues fill baptistries faster than most 4 point sermons designed for the saved.

Ephesians 5:14-20 (KJV)
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

 

[Dave M]