What Is the Difference Between Pentecostal & Charismatics?

[Curtis]

@ Curtis -- so What was the implications of the lady falling backward. I would have been concerned that she had fainted or passed out or something.

Not everyone falls when prayed for, some do, some don't, and some fight it not to fall. It all depends on how one is taught the scriptures. One thing is for sure, you can not believe in what you do not know, and you certainly can not experience what you do not believe. This is why I have no problems with other preachers who do not believe how I do to a certain point. There is one Calvery Chapel pastor I watch sometimes on youtube once in a while. I don't agree with him on a few things, but I do agree with him on a lot of things. It is easy to identify the Spirit of Christ in a person when you that same Spirit in you. Everyone walks in the "light" they have. Not everyone is walking at the same level of spiritual growth, so I give every a break just because I might disagree with them on some things.

 

[MadHermit]

I consider myself Pentecostal. I have always wondered how non Pentecostals justify certain verses.

Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

If these signs accompany "those who have believed" (in Jesus's name).. and these signs aren't accompanying you or your church, do you ever worry?

1 Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Why does God give these gifts to the church?

[NLT] 1 Cor 12:7; A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other.

If there is no tangible evidence of the Holy Spirit moving in your church, how do you know the Holy Spirit is even there?
No prophecies, no miracles, no tongues or interpretations, and no healings. If these things aren't happening in your church do you ever get worried?

1 Cor 14:4; One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
1 Cor 14:5; Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy ; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

If a church is only "speaking in tongues" and there are no miracles, healings, or prophesies, I would be pretty concerned.
Anything can be abused, perhaps the video is the Holy Spirit, perhaps not.. I do not know. But even if it isn't. We can't say God never uses the gifts of the Spirit in the church today.

Acts 1:8; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Have you received this "power". Have you evidenced it in your life? Have you done a miracle, healed someone, prophesied, spoke in a language you didn't know?
Then how do you know you have this power?

When the apostles (and others, Stephen and Barnabas for example) did these signs and wonders, people could not deny they were from God.
People got saved when they saw the power of God moving. Is this happening in your life?

1 Cor 2:4; and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

1 Thes 1:5; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Now I don't believe you have to do these things in order to be saved, nor does doing these things prove you ARE saved. (Matt 7;21-23; )
But if God gave us this power, why wouldn't you want to use it?

 

[MadHermit]

Ah, B-A-C [Baptist-and-Charismatic?], be careful what you wish for! I just might take your comments as a plea for a long emotional thread on Speaking in tongues! btw, to comply with Mark 16:17, I drink a tablespoon of strychnine daily and make rattler burgers! :happy: They're actually quite good! They taste like chicken.

 

[Sue D.]

Curtis -- it's a natural instinct with people to try to catch/ protect themselves From falling. Broken bones, sprains, etc. Better to Not fall down.

Is that possibly what is called /slaying of the Spirit?

As has been brought up just now -- the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And 'tangible evidence of the Holy Spirit working in the Church -- Upon salvation - the Holy Spirit gives the individual person various gifts to be used within the context of the church. I guess it would depend on what is considered 'tangible' evidence Of the Holy Spirit working in the church. People accepting Christ as personal Savior and Lord. And then the desire to be baptized. And spiritual growth being observed during Bible study time / Sunday School classes. The desire of the people to reach out to their friends, neighbors with the Gospel. An interest in both home / foreign missions. That's what I grew up with and where I go to church now.

And I've wondered -- Why the push for 'speaking in tongues' -- some believe that That is the sign of true conversion.

Back in Acts -- 'tongues' was demonstrated when all the Jews from all the various areas were together and Peter was talking to them / explaining the Gospel to them. They were in awe because all the various dialects present were hearing / understanding in their own language / dialect.

But didn't Paul say that it was better to speak in a known language than to speak in an unknown language so that everyone present would be able to understand. But if tongues Is being spoken in an assembly , that there needs to be immediate interpretation and no more than 3 people speaking in tongues.

the only environment I've experienced hearing 'tongues' was what sounded like jibberish when an older man and his wife were sitting in the row ahead of us. There was no one else hearing him and no one offered any interpretation. I was not impressed and never went back. It happened to be the closest church to where we had just moved to. Then I was able to find a church that had a bus ministry and I went with the kids too that church. My husband's job had him working evenings and weekends.

 

[Curtis]

Is that possibly what is called /slaying of the Spirit?

Falling because of the presence of God is normal. Everyone who has ever had an encounter with Jesus usually fell. The Apostle John fell when Jesus appeared before him in the book Revelations.(Rev 1:17) Paul fell when Jesus appeared on the road to Damascus. When the Prophet Isaiah was shown the Glory of God had a traumatic experience.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone and ruined, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!


Mar 5:21 And when Jesus was passed over again by ship unto the other side, much people gathered unto him: and he was nigh unto the sea.
Mar 5:22 And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,

Mar 5:33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Mar 7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:

Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Luk 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:

Joh 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Psa 72:11 May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!

We might as well it use to it because everyone is going fall down at the presence of Jesus who is the King of Kings.

 

[Curtis]

And I've wondered -- Why the push for 'speaking in tongues' -- some believe that That is the sign of true conversion.

Nobody that I know pushes for speaking in tongues, it is just a supernatural event that happens when the Holy Spirit moves.

 

[Curtis]

But didn't Paul say that it was better to speak in a known language than to speak in an unknown language so that everyone presen

Only if there is no interpreter.

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

 

[Sue D.]

Curtis -- I'm thinking that there's a difference between Fall down and bowing down or kneeling.

The passage says that every knee will Bow down.

I've just never been in a church where people are falling down for Any reason.

Speaking in tongues doesn't Have to be happening when the Holy Spirit moves. I've been in plenty of churches where the Holy Spirit has been moving and people come to know Christ but no one is falling down or speaking in tongues in the process of or as a result of. so, obviously it's not a Must do / happen 'thing'.

 

[Curtis]

Curtis -- I'm thinking that there's a difference between Fall down and bowing down or kneeling.

The passage says that every knee will Bow down.

I've just never been in a church where people are falling down for Any reason.

Speaking in tongues doesn't Have to be happening when the Holy Spirit moves. I've been in plenty of churches where the Holy Spirit has been moving and people come to know Christ but no one is falling down or speaking in tongues in the process of or as a result of. so, obviously it's not a Must do / happen 'thing'.

No, its not a must do thing. Like I said before you can not believe in something you do not know, and you can not experience what you do not believe.
I have seen many many people fall back, fall forward, or just fall straight down. It makes no difference in the direction in which they fall, they all fell because of the presence of the Lord.

Every single born again believer has been made a King, and a priest unto God and since Jesus is the King of Kings all of his Kings will fall before.

Psa 72:11 May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!

Now the question is when were we made a King? Now or is it going to someday in the future.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[MadHermit]

Posters have made reference to being "slain in the Spirit." That phenomenon deserves a separate thread. For now, let me just make 3 quick observations:
(1) The phenomenon is biblically sound in the sense of people falling down in awes in response to divine revelation (e. g. 1 Cor 14:24-25).
(2) The phenomenon has a long history in great revivals such as John Wesley's Methodist awakening in England, the First Great Awakening, the Second Great Awakening, and the great Hebrides Revival.
(3) Being "slain in the Spirit" becomes problematic at times, when falling backwards becomes an expected reaction to the laying on of hands in SOME Pentecostal ministries.

 

[Sue D.]

No, its not a must do thing. Like I said before you can not believe in something you do not know, and you can not experience what you do not believe.
I have seen many many people fall back, fall forward, or just fall straight down. It makes no difference in the direction in which they fall, they all fell because of the presence of the Lord.

Every single born again believer has been made a King, and a priest unto God and since Jesus is the King of Kings all of his Kings will fall before.

Psa 72:11 May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!

Now the question is when were we made a King? Now or is it going to someday in the future.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

What translation are you using? Mine says "and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father. ...."

We haven't been made a king -- unless we're living in a country that has kings. England has their Queen.

Born-again believers Are sons and daughters of God through Jesus Christ.

And since the cross -- no one has to go to a High Priest like they did in the Old Testament. We've become our Own 'priest'. Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and man.

And, no one needs to go to a priest to confess their sins. We go directly to God through Jesus Christ.

Is it Possible that the people fell Not because of the presence of the Lord. You're talking about in a church service? Sometimes people get so wraught up emotionally, that they Do loose control and go down. The fall on the floor.

 

[Curtis]

What translation are you using? Mine says "and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father. ...."

We haven't been made a king -- unless we're living in a country that has kings. England has their Queen.

Born-again believers Are sons and daughters of God through Jesus Christ.

And since the cross -- no one has to go to a High Priest like they did in the Old Testament. We've become our Own 'priest'. Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and man.

And, no one needs to go to a priest to confess their sins. We go directly to God through Jesus Christ.

Is it Possible that the people fell Not because of the presence of the Lord. You're talking about in a church service? Sometimes people get so wraught up emotionally, that they Do loose control and go down. The fall on the floor.

I use the King James version the most, but not always. Here are a few other translations that say the same thing.


Rev 1:6 He lets us rule as kings and serve God his Father as priests. To him be glory and power forever and ever! Amen. (CEV)


Rev 1:6 and He made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (EMTV)


Rev 1:6 and has made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.(JUB)


Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.(KJV)


Rev 1:6 and made us kings and priests to God, even His Father. To Him is the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen. (LITV)


Rev 1:6 and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (MKJV)


Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests to God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Webster)


Rev 1:6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.(YLT)


Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.(KJV)



This verse says “we are joint-heirs with Christ” that means we sit on the same throne he does. Only a King sits on a throne. This is why Jesus is called, “The King of Kings” (Rev 19:16)



Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

What do Kings do? They make decrees. They have power, and authority. They “reign”

Luke 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. (ESV)

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 

[Sue D.]

Is this possibly talking about our royal priesthood that we have in Christ.

 

[Dovegiven]

What translation are you using? Mine says "and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father. ...."

We haven't been made a king -- unless we're living in a country that has kings. England has their Queen.

Born-again believers Are sons and daughters of God through Jesus Christ.

And since the cross -- no one has to go to a High Priest like they did in the Old Testament. We've become our Own 'priest'. Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and man.

And, no one needs to go to a priest to confess their sins. We go directly to God through Jesus Christ.

Is it Possible that the people fell Not because of the presence of the Lord. You're talking about in a church service? Sometimes people get so wraught up emotionally, that they Do loose control and go down. The fall on the floor.

Have you read Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology yet? It makes the issue clear, which I'd like to give a hint to.

In 2 Peter 2 All Christians, of the Jews and Gentiles alike, are co hears with Jesus, made in the present an holy priesthood, above all priesthoods of man on earth.

In Rev. 1 is the first New Testament Pprophecy of Revelation. The introduction lays out our present position, which is still spiritual, not of carnal kingship or carnal priesthood. Often a man might be born to become king of a kingdom, but must be prepared to rightly rule. It remains to be fully fulfilled when we shall take up literal kingships on earth over a city(s), and be priests to people of the world, enforcing the righteousness of Christ among natural people who survive the tribulation, having all desirable attributes of those positions which will be combined. Our individual rewards will determine the extent of those positions. I'll paste the verses that contain current truths about Christians. It would be improper exegesis to separate some verses from the context, some for present, and some for future. The actual duties of positions are not defined for today and in the future. I can't shade the verses so will put comments in bold

Revelation 1:4-8 (KJV)
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

He was always and remains forever king (Prince) of kings.
Being washed in in his own blood is not a future event.

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

He has already done that, presenting us to Father God. We are already by then a royal priesthood according to 2 Peter 2. It doesn't fit to try making the kingship only future. Being already functional as priests of the Eternal Priesthood, we are already a holy nation among carnal nations. We have no set boundaries. We each ought to live as though a wise king ruling within this holy nation even ruling carnal kings (and queens, and other rulers) in the Spirit, praying for them who have carnal authority over us in the righteousness of Jesus. The day will come when we shall walk as fully functional kings on earth ruling with absolute authority from glorified bodies, to the glory of God. At the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus those people will be subject to a world-wide rebellion against Jesus and probably all of us, by deception of Satan loosed upon them. But that won't be a permanent interruption into the New Earth.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

That part is entirely future. We'll be right behind Him.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Present and future everlasting truth.

There are some slight variations among denominational doctrines, but I have not yet seen a successful major departure from that.

Being "slain in the Spirit" is something even unbelievers have experienced. Many people who complained about the idea of speaking in tongues have arisen from that experience speaking in tongues. A very common effect is a very large confirmation of a man living in earnest to be holy as the Lord commands, something often not taken literally until one's natural strength is halted temporarily. The Roman guard over Jesus' tomb trembled and became as though dead when in the presence of the angel. When Jesus was about to be arrested, He answered "I am he", and the men fell back and onto the ground. That is not excluded from His idea of doing greater things than He did. If a preacher has less influence on hearers he might need refreshing. I believe there is personal danger of opening to to satanic attack by even suggesting something found holy in a Christian worship service is fleshly or of the Devil, or a matter of deception or confusion. We all understand anything can be be done deceitfully. But to say that happened or even might have without having personal evidence and confirmation you are correct is potentially "treading on thorns".

If an experience in worship results in increased devotion to the Lord, healing of chronic physical and mental diseases, deliverance from satanic situations, it's best not to criticize out of unfamiliarity of very well received personal experiences in worship. Satan wouldn't want that result among people.

I realize not many Christians have been in a worship service "glory cloud" (as pentecostals and charismatics call it), accustomed to congregations that won't even allow worshipers to raise hands in praise or worship or show emotions, "lay hands" on anyone in prayer (especially for healing of disease as explained in James 5, shout AMEN too loudly, or show emotion while "giving testimony", a reason many won't dare get up to do it in a service even when invited to do that. Ancient Jews experienced that cloud, but we are not eligible?

It's a wonderful experience to be in a service having everyone prostrate on faces worhsiping and praying, musicians, choir, pastor, everyone at once! Seemingly undignified, what would be evil about that?