What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

[Bendito]

You still have not answered my question above

I'm sorry Listening. Which question? I'll answer it. And when will you answer mine too?

 

[norapture]

Could you please explain to an old man just what these verses have to do with the rapture? It sounds more like judgment.

When is the harvest ?
What is the harvest ?

 

[Bendito]

When is the harvest ?
What is the harvest ?

Matthew 13:39 (CJB)
39 The enemy who sows them is the Adversary, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

So now you know. Its when Jesus gathers up all the tribulation saints from the four corners of the Earth. It's not the rapture. You gave NO scripture to back up your spiel on the end times and how we're in tribulation period now. So without scripture I can only assume that you are out to lunch on your conclusions? Your turn....change my mind?

 

[Travis]

tribulation saints

Tribulation saints? I've always considered that an interesting term.

These are the tribulation saints:

"21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and [to] Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. -Acts 14"​

Tribulation is for all the children of the promise.

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. - 2nd Timothy 3:12​

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Curtis]

Tribulation saints? I've always considered that an interesting term.

These are the tribulation saints:

"21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and [to] Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. -Acts 14"​

Tribulation is for all the children of the promise.

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. - 2nd Timothy 3:12​

Blessings,

Travis

The Apostle John considered himself in "tribulation" during his life time,

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Curtis]

Why in this order?
Christ's second coming And then our gathering together unto him?
Why not rapture first then the coming of the Lord?
And why will that day And the gathering not happen until the Man of sin is revealed and then that coming of the Lord occurs ? When the gathering can occur as is stated quite clearly.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering to gether unto him, 2

The day of the Lord, and the gathering are two separate events that will happen 1000 years apart from each other. The Gathering (rapture) first and then the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to make war at the end of tribulation, and set up his Kingdom on earth, not to resurrect anyone until the end of the Millennium. The saints that live during the "tribulation" will have to die for what they believe, which means there will be no resurrection for them except when they die and their spirits are raised because of the death of their body, later to receive a new body.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The rapture (first resurrection) will happen first, and then the "man of sin" will be revealed. Tribulation comes until Jesus Christ comes to make war, not to resurrect anyone, but only to set up his millennium Kingdom. Then after 1000 years of reign of Christ, the last resurrection happens, which brings the great white throne judgment.

 

[Bendito]

The Apostle John considered himself in "tribulation" during his life time,

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yup Keep in mind, there is tribulation and there is THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Tribulation here means trouble, distress, persecution. This sort of thing is par for the course on in any life journey, at any time, in any dispensation.

 

[Bendito]

For anyone here still awaiting the pre-trib. You are living in the tribulation right now. The pope just recently stated plainly that Jesus dying on the cross was a failure. I believe the verbatim was "... the failure of the cross."

There are a host of numerous indicators. The worldwide agreement by nations of their desire for a one world currency. The leaders of nations that are at odds with each other, yet meeting and making agreements together. ( "Tense" peace ) The United States having troops in at least 1/3 of the worlds countries fighting over, of all things, natural resources. The recent "order" by the pope to catholics in Europe to "take in" muslims that are refugees. ( I agree with helping the least of these, but the pope is well known to praise the religion of islam. ) The refugees flooding Europe in itself is a testimony to the evil this world has come to, they are fleeing from just one of the horrid wars going on as I write this. The fighting over the holy land in Israel. The singular mission statement by Iran that they will not stop until Israel is wiped off the map. This is just a very select few signs.

My name is Daniel, so I have a preference in the Bible. In Daniel one of the most profound prohetic phrases describing the times in Revelation/Tribulation is "they shall think to change times and laws." (paraphrased) Right now in america there is a law passed to ENFORCE gay marriage. There are so many things that show we live in the Tribulation that I'd have to get my paperwork and sit down to write an article. (Which I will have many soon as I'm working on a website.)

To anyone who thinks Jesus is coming to get you before the tribulation, I ask you where the church that is described to be IN the tribulation to be tested by fire comes from? lol Not in an ugly manner I write this, but on a serious note. I don't want anyone to actually think "we'll be gone before anything bad happens" when your Christian brothers and sisters are being murdered worldwide ---for their faith---, the United Nations is starting a program called "Agenda 21" (google it) and to top it all off there are more wars, natural disasters and earthquakes going on in the past year alone to establish the fact.

I never like taking away the dream some still hold on to concerning this topic. But the truth is always hard to swallow in this world. And the Tribulation is no exception. As a matter of fact, it sets the standard for hard to swallow truth.

For arguments sake, as a general note: Everything the Bible teaches is substantiated from front to back, cover to cover. I have yet to find a subject God speaks on that isn't well documented all over the Holy Bible inside and out with plenty and plenty of references and point of views to validate what He ACTUALLY says and means. I believe this is for a reason. And the pre-tribulation idea has never been substantiated but with a select few verses that are vague in themselves at best.

Do I wish the pre-trib was the reality? Absolutely! But you have to wake up and realize what God is doing. We aren't here to live Heaven on earth, nor to be saved from the duties we have in the flesh before the waters begin to rise. We are here to accept God's will and bear our cross following in Jesus footsteps. That is to deny ourselves and to follow His will. Bearing the cross is doing His will. Preaching the Gospel to the poor and needy. Not waiting to be sucked from earth in the nick of time so we don't have to bear a cross and suffer the persecution that Jesus said we will suffer. The persecution that our brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering right now.

If you are waiting for Jesus, you may see Him coming soon. But it's not going to be a "pre-trib" rapture. He will be coming to end the evil and blasphemy, because we are living IN the book of revelation. You are living in prophecy right now.

The dispensation that comes before the dispensation is called the dispensation of Grace. Its when God declared "The War is Over! Come to me I love you" Soon and very soon this period will come to an end. The world will enter the Tribulation period. To describe it simply, All hell will break loose, God

For anyone here still awaiting the pre-trib. You are living in the tribulation right now. The pope just recently stated plainly that Jesus dying on the cross was a failure. I believe the verbatim was "... the failure of the cross."

There are a host of numerous indicators. The worldwide agreement by nations of their desire for a one world currency. The leaders of nations that are at odds with each other, yet meeting and making agreements together. ( "Tense" peace ) The United States having troops in at least 1/3 of the worlds countries fighting over, of all things, natural resources. The recent "order" by the pope to catholics in Europe to "take in" muslims that are refugees. ( I agree with helping the least of these, but the pope is well known to praise the religion of islam. ) The refugees flooding Europe in itself is a testimony to the evil this world has come to, they are fleeing from just one of the horrid wars going on as I write this. The fighting over the holy land in Israel. The singular mission statement by Iran that they will not stop until Israel is wiped off the map. This is just a very select few signs.

My name is Daniel, so I have a preference in the Bible. In Daniel one of the most profound prohetic phrases describing the times in Revelation/Tribulation is "they shall think to change times and laws." (paraphrased) Right now in america there is a law passed to ENFORCE gay marriage. There are so many things that show we live in the Tribulation that I'd have to get my paperwork and sit down to write an article. (Which I will have many soon as I'm working on a website.)

To anyone who thinks Jesus is coming to get you before the tribulation, I ask you where the church that is described to be IN the tribulation to be tested by fire comes from? lol Not in an ugly manner I write this, but on a serious note. I don't want anyone to actually think "we'll be gone before anything bad happens" when your Christian brothers and sisters are being murdered worldwide ---for their faith---, the United Nations is starting a program called "Agenda 21" (google it) and to top it all off there are more wars, natural disasters and earthquakes going on in the past year alone to establish the fact.

I never like taking away the dream some still hold on to concerning this topic. But the truth is always hard to swallow in this world. And the Tribulation is no exception. As a matter of fact, it sets the standard for hard to swallow truth.

For arguments sake, as a general note: Everything the Bible teaches is substantiated from front to back, cover to cover. I have yet to find a subject God speaks on that isn't well documented all over the Holy Bible inside and out with plenty and plenty of references and point of views to validate what He ACTUALLY says and means. I believe this is for a reason. And the pre-tribulation idea has never been substantiated but with a select few verses that are vague in themselves at best.

Do I wish the pre-trib was the reality? Absolutely! But you have to wake up and realize what God is doing. We aren't here to live Heaven on earth, nor to be saved from the duties we have in the flesh before the waters begin to rise. We are here to accept God's will and bear our cross following in Jesus footsteps. That is to deny ourselves and to follow His will. Bearing the cross is doing His will. Preaching the Gospel to the poor and needy. Not waiting to be sucked from earth in the nick of time so we don't have to bear a cross and suffer the persecution that Jesus said we will suffer. The persecution that our brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering right now.

If you are waiting for Jesus, you may see Him coming soon. But it's not going to be a "pre-trib" rapture. He will be coming to end the evil and blasphemy, because we are living IN the book of revelation. You are living in prophecy right now.

For anyone here still awaiting the pre-trib. You are living in the tribulation right now. The pope just recently stated plainly that Jesus dying on the cross was a failure. I believe the verbatim was "... the failure of the cross."

There are a host of numerous indicators. The worldwide agreement by nations of their desire for a one world currency. The leaders of nations that are at odds with each other, yet meeting and making agreements together. ( "Tense" peace ) The United States having troops in at least 1/3 of the worlds countries fighting over, of all things, natural resources. The recent "order" by the pope to catholics in Europe to "take in" muslims that are refugees. ( I agree with helping the least of these, but the pope is well known to praise the religion of islam. ) The refugees flooding Europe in itself is a testimony to the evil this world has come to, they are fleeing from just one of the horrid wars going on as I write this. The fighting over the holy land in Israel. The singular mission statement by Iran that they will not stop until Israel is wiped off the map. This is just a very select few signs.

My name is Daniel, so I have a preference in the Bible. In Daniel one of the most profound prohetic phrases describing the times in Revelation/Tribulation is "they shall think to change times and laws." (paraphrased) Right now in america there is a law passed to ENFORCE gay marriage. There are so many things that show we live in the Tribulation that I'd have to get my paperwork and sit down to write an article. (Which I will have many soon as I'm working on a website.)

To anyone who thinks Jesus is coming to get you before the tribulation, I ask you where the church that is described to be IN the tribulation to be tested by fire comes from? lol Not in an ugly manner I write this, but on a serious note. I don't want anyone to actually think "we'll be gone before anything bad happens" when your Christian brothers and sisters are being murdered worldwide ---for their faith---, the United Nations is starting a program called "Agenda 21" (google it) and to top it all off there are more wars, natural disasters and earthquakes going on in the past year alone to establish the fact.

I never like taking away the dream some still hold on to concerning this topic. But the truth is always hard to swallow in this world. And the Tribulation is no exception. As a matter of fact, it sets the standard for hard to swallow truth.

For arguments sake, as a general note: Everything the Bible teaches is substantiated from front to back, cover to cover. I have yet to find a subject God speaks on that isn't well documented all over the Holy Bible inside and out with plenty and plenty of references and point of views to validate what He ACTUALLY says and means. I believe this is for a reason. And the pre-tribulation idea has never been substantiated but with a select few verses that are vague in themselves at best.

Do I wish the pre-trib was the reality? Absolutely! But you have to wake up and realize what God is doing. We aren't here to live Heaven on earth, nor to be saved from the duties we have in the flesh before the waters begin to rise. We are here to accept God's will and bear our cross following in Jesus footsteps. That is to deny ourselves and to follow His will. Bearing the cross is doing His will. Preaching the Gospel to the poor and needy. Not waiting to be sucked from earth in the nick of time so we don't have to bear a cross and suffer the persecution that Jesus said we will suffer. The persecution that our brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering right now.

If you are waiting for Jesus, you may see Him coming soon. But it's not going to be a "pre-trib" rapture. He will be coming to end the evil and blasphemy, because we are living IN the book of revelation. You are living in prophecy right now.

Now you seem to be a bright young man....Still you cannot understand the Word of God by just using your own intellect. It won't work. We were given the Holy Spirit as teacher, and counselor. To try do learn from the Word without Him is a waste of time. Your stance that we are in the tribulation is wrong, amiss, awry, erroneous, false, inaccurate. On the other hand....you might simply be mistaken?
Maybe you could provide some scripture to back up your conclusions?

 

[Ceptor]

To try do learn from the Word without Him is a waste of time. Your stance that we are in the tribulation is wrong, amiss, awry, erroneous, false, inaccurate. On the other hand....you might simply be mistaken?
Maybe you could provide some scripture to back up your conclusions?

Cough. This a little much to swallow. I know better than what I did.

Your rebuke is.. a little harsh, but simultaneously I accept it. I believe I most certainly am mistaken. That is probably the first time I've ever claimed so strongly I believed that. And it was based on the teachings of others and the sheer quantity of prophecy going on. But it wasn't due to trying to learn without Him. It was due to jumping to conclusions without even doing personal in depth study. Which is plain stupidity. I have no clue what I was thinking.

I do hope anyone here that read those remarks will forgive me for the error. The error of saying we are in the tribulation that is. The events going on, on the other hand, those are things I follow myself.

I, since posting that, ( and I believe God got hold of me about it. ) decided that this isn't something I've studied in depth personally. I trusted some men I considered accountable, but that is always a mistake. I've been studying the Bible for over 12 years, I really have no excuse.

I do feel silly. -- I started working on doing in depth studies just last night and spent a long time praying. God showed me the error of my doing.

The teaching of the Rapture is always quoted in a few select versus by all the people that I've ever heard teach on it. But, last night, I seen that the Rapture is a very detailed and outlined truth, and has PLENTY of scriptural support.


IN ALL HONESTY, this is a very nice thing for me to find out. I simply, before now, did not want to tell people "nothing bad is going to happen to you" or think so myself. I wanted people to know anything can happen, and they should be prepared to stand for Christ regardless of the situation. And bad things ARE happening. There is no reason for me to base a conclusion on that, when it doesn't mean they can't be ready to stand for Christ and be ready for Him to take us home.

But nothing excuses what I did in jumping to conclusions without going deep into scripture and prayer personally. I've been studying the Bible for many years, and prior to now when I would aim to gain understanding on Revelation I would come up so confused I simply felt it was something that wasn't meant to be understood by most people yet. And so finally after many attempts I put it on the back burner and never looked back after never coming to an understanding.

You have no clue how remorseful I felt when I found out I had told a lie! And due to being irresponsible as I know very well not to do what I done!

If, ahem, you could forgive me.. Could you share what you understand on the subject of the 5th and 6th seals?

And thank you for being bold and correcting me. I'm glad God got hold of me and corrected my foolish actions.

 

[Bendito]

Cough. This a little much to swallow. I know better than what I did.

Your rebuke is.. a little harsh, but simultaneously I accept it. I believe I most certainly am mistaken. That is probably the first time I've ever claimed so strongly I believed that. And it was based on the teachings of others and the sheer quantity of prophecy going on. But it wasn't due to trying to learn without Him. It was due to jumping to conclusions without even doing personal in depth study. Which is plain stupidity. I have no clue what I was thinking.

I do hope anyone here that read those remarks will forgive me for the error. The error of saying we are in the tribulation that is. The events going on, on the other hand, those are things I follow myself.

I, since posting that, ( and I believe God got hold of me about it. ) decided that this isn't something I've studied in depth personally. I trusted some men I considered accountable, but that is always a mistake. I've been studying the Bible for over 12 years, I really have no excuse.

I do feel silly. -- I started working on doing in depth studies just last night and spent a long time praying. God showed me the error of my doing.

The teaching of the Rapture is always quoted in a few select versus by all the people that I've ever heard teach on it. But, last night, I seen that the Rapture is a very detailed and outlined truth, and has PLENTY of scriptural support.


IN ALL HONESTY, this is a very nice thing for me to find out. I simply, before now, did not want to tell people "nothing bad is going to happen to you" or think so myself. I wanted people to know anything can happen, and they should be prepared to stand for Christ regardless of the situation. And bad things ARE happening. There is no reason for me to base a conclusion on that, when it doesn't mean they can't be ready to stand for Christ and be ready for Him to take us home.

But nothing excuses what I did in jumping to conclusions without going deep into scripture and prayer personally. I've been studying the Bible for many years, and prior to now when I would aim to gain understanding on Revelation I would come up so confused I simply felt it was something that wasn't meant to be understood by most people yet. And so finally after many attempts I put it on the back burner and never looked back after never coming to an understanding.

You have no clue how remorseful I felt when I found out I had told a lie! And due to being irresponsible as I know very well not to do what I done!

If, ahem, you could forgive me.. Could you share what you understand on the subject of the 5th and 6th seals?

And thank you for being bold and correcting me. I'm glad God got hold of me and corrected my foolish actions.

Well my friend You're still a winner. I didn't mean to stomp on you. Its just that it's vital to get together with the Holy Spirit and learn from Him. Before you spend time listening to others.

 

[Ceptor]

Well my friend You're still a winner. I didn't mean to stomp on you. Its just that it's vital to get together with the Holy Spirit and learn from Him. Before you spend time listening to others.

Rebuke is hard to swallow. But when I say "... I know better than what I done." I really mean it. There is a time for everything, and right now it's time for me to reflect on that mistake so I don't make it again! Not that I've never done it prior to that post, but it has been quite a long time.

I spent a very long time debating people concerning God and Scripture at a particular time in my life. It taught me many lessons. This is one I learned, and I shouldn't have done it.

Teaching people the wrong things concerning God's word is no small deal to me. I hate lies with a passion, and though.. it was harsh. It was also absolutely true. So don't think you done anything wrong as far as I'm concerned. I thank you for accepting my apology.

When a man commits himself to serving God and teaching what His Word says he needs to be diligent to know what he is teaching is true. Taking the time to learn and pray about it. If it isn't what God said, and MEANS.. then I don't want to teach it. I aim for the truth, and that is what any man that teaches from his Sword should aim to do.

God doesn't want me spreading lies on account of not being diligent and allowing things around me and personal ideas to make me jump to an invalid conclusion. That, to me, is just not pleasing God.

I know you don't want to be ugly, and didn't mean any harm toward me. I actually thank you for standing up for what you know is true. It's what we need these days. God usually keeps me in line. He often shows me things, and He also often uses His servants to correct me. That would be you. It is no coincidence to me that I had an urge from Him to study what I did last night, to pray about it, and then receive a message from you just now. I don't believe in coincidence. I believe in God.

 

[Curtis]

Rebuke is hard to swallow. But when I say "... I know better than what I done." I really mean it. There is a time for everything, and right now it's time for me to reflect on that mistake so I don't make it again! Not that I've never done it prior to that post, but it has been quite a long time.

I spent a very long time debating people concerning God and Scripture at a particular time in my life. It taught me many lessons. This is one I learned, and I shouldn't have done it.

Teaching people the wrong things concerning God's word is no small deal to me. I hate lies with a passion, and though.. it was harsh. It was also absolutely true. So don't think you done anything wrong as far as I'm concerned. I thank you for accepting my apology.

When a man commits himself to serving God and teaching what His Word says he needs to be diligent to know what he is teaching is true. Taking the time to learn and pray about it. If it isn't what God said, and MEANS.. then I don't want to teach it. I aim for the truth, and that is what any man that teaches from his Sword should aim to do.

God doesn't want me spreading lies on account of not being diligent and allowing things around me and personal ideas to make me jump to an invalid conclusion. That, to me, is just not pleasing God.

I know you don't want to be ugly, and didn't mean any harm toward me. I actually thank you for standing up for what you know is true. It's what we need these days. God usually keeps me in line. He often shows me things, and He also often uses His servants to correct me. That would be you. It is no coincidence to me that I had an urge from Him to study what I did last night, to pray about it, and then receive a message from you just now. I don't believe in coincidence. I believe in God.

Brother, I am impressed with how you have received "correction" with graciousness. That tells ,and shows me you truly have the "heart" of God within you. For whom the Lord loves he corrects. You will go far in knowing and experiencing God's Kingdom for which he has translated you into in this life. Spiritual growth sometimes is not a "pleasant" process and the more we refuse to be showed the error we might have only causes that growth to be hindered, and or slowed down. I can not tell you how many times I have found my self in the same place, yet they were good for me so that I might be partakers of his holiness.

 

[Ceptor]

Brother, I am impressed with how you have received "correction" with graciousness. That tells ,and shows me you truly have the "heart" of God within you.

Well lets just say I love Him. He's been there from day one, and He's never let me down not once. He deserves all I can give. I try to keep my head low, and my heart high.. because nothing I do, is me doing anything. I'm just thankful to be used being the wretch I am.

So don't praise me too much. It's nice to receive kind words, truly. But I really haven't done anything worth praise. He has. Me accepting my correction, eh.. that's a small price for what He's done for me. Bendito did what God wanted him to do. I deserved it.

If anyone knows things or could point out what you know concerning the 5th and 6th seals (or anything else for that matter), I'm extremely interested in sorting through some of this. Revelation has been a controversial topic for a long time, and there are many incorrect views on it. But I think I'm in good company here, so I would love to hear what you guys think on the subject.

I believe I've noticed the word tribulation being used for more than just one time period, but that's just something I believe I observed last night and remembered I need to look into. There is a distinction from it's use concerning the Day of the Lord though

 

[Curtis]

Well lets just say I love Him. He's been there from day one, and He's never let me down not once. He deserves all I can give. I try to keep my head low, and my heart high.. because nothing I do, is me doing anything. I'm just thankful to be used being the wretch I am.

So don't praise me too much. It's nice to receive kind words, truly. But I really haven't done anything worth praise. He has. Me accepting my correction, eh.. that's a small price for what He's done for me. Bendito did what God wanted him to do. I deserved it.

If anyone knows things or could point out what you know concerning the 5th and 6th seals (or anything else for that matter), I'm extremely interested in sorting through some of this. Revelation has been a controversial topic for a long time, and there are many incorrect views on it. But I think I'm in good company here, so I would love to hear what you guys think on the subject.

I believe I've noticed the word tribulation being used for more than just one time period, but that's just something I believe I observed last night and remembered I need to look into. There is a distinction from it's use concerning the Day of the Lord though

The Book of Revelations is something I don't study that often, but there are Christians that spend pretty much all their time seeking answers too what you yourself are seeking answers too.
There is another Christian board I participate in that had this video. I did not watch all of it, but sounded very interesting. You might have to copy and paste to watch them, as I am not to sure if this forum allows videos to be linked to.

youtu.be/PC6rKJvdD5g



youtu.be/R4_yFxnkjqg

 

[Ceptor]

No, I don't believe the site allows site links in the forum, or the message system. I could be wrong, but those aren't working and it wouldn't let me send a message with links in it to someone earlier.

I really can't blame the website for not allowing them either. I've seen people turn a website upside down with spam website links. lol

If you wouldn't mind, you could email them to me. I would be interested in reviewing whatever the video has to say on the subject. And I'm very grateful for you sharing them.

[email protected]

 

[norapture]

[endito, post: 265610, member: 30713"]
Matthew 13:39 (CJB)
39 The enemy who sows them is the Adversary, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

So now you know. Its when Jesus gathers up all the tribulation saints from the four corners of the Earth. It's not the rapture. You gave NO scripture to back up your spiel on the end times and how we're in tribulation period now. So without scripture I can only assume that you are out to lunch on your conclusions? Your turn....change my mind?[/QUOTE]

Paul said that we (all) would be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, that those which sleep ( die in Christ ) would not go before the the believers still alive, that we ALL would be change in a twinkle of a eye.
No where in scripture does it say , part will go then he comes back to get the rest.

 

[Ceptor]

Considering I don't believe in getting deep into complexly detailed debates and especially attempting to prove anything with severe effort.. Considering I'm studying this right now, I figured I'd point out some verses to consider on that subject norapture.

Matthew 24:36-51

Revelation 14:6

Now, just for clarification, when reading in Matthew the point of verses 40 & 41 "...one shall be taken, and the other left..." is connected to verse 45 "Who then is that faithful and wise servant... " & verse 48 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;"

This is telling of people who claim to be "Christians" and who have not followed God in their heart, but only in word of mouth. So they know who Jesus is, but the one who SERVES Jesus is the one taken, and the other is left. This is not meaning "believer & unbeliever" if you consider the context of the scripture.

This is just me throwing things out to consider mind you. Revelation 14:6 is the Gospel being preached IN THE TRIBULATION. Now... I don't see God preaching the Gospel if there is no one who is going to be saved by it. So.. my ASSUMPTION considering this is when Jesus comes at the end to kill all evil there will be people saved. Why else preach the Good News? IF THERE IS NO GOOD NEWS?! lol


-----------------------

The other point I've observed:

Revelation 6:12-17

This section in Revelation is describing when God pours out His wrath on the unbelieving world. And........... if you look in:

Matthew 24:29-51

Jesus is here referring to Him taking His people from the earth, the believers. Notice verses 29 through 31. It matches the exact description of Revelation 6;12-17.

-----------------------

1] The "Rapture" is at the Sixth Seal in Revelation 6:12-17 / Matthew 24:29-31.

2] The Gospel is preached at Revelation 14:6 far after the Rapture.

3] Jesus says in Matthew 24:21-22 "...except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall
be shortened."


So then you have the Rapture, where Jesus takes His people, one taken, one left. Then the Gospel preached in the Tribulation. Then Jesus comes with with His army in Revelation 19:11-14

In Revelation 19:14 The description is of the saints, because Jesus died to clean us from our sin. Which is why HIS "vesture" is dipped in blood. So the "army" is the saints ("fine linen, white and clean") Revelation 6:11 (Died prior to Rapture) and Revelation 6:12-17 (Were Raptured before the wrath of God "Day of the Lord").

So He takes His people, sends wrath on earth, preaches the Gospel, and comes back with his saints and kills all evil to "shorten" "those days" to "save" some "flesh" or ..... "but for the ELECT'S sake...." ---> This is the people He comes back to get. lol They accept Christ in the Revelation Tribulation after the Rapture, so He comes back to save their lives from death, because they are part of His elect through accepting the preached Gospel during the Tribulation.


That's it though! No more debate from me! Just what I seen from my current studying. You guys may continue, I'm stepping to the side now. Ahem


If anyone has THOUGHTS on the subject though, I would LOVEEE to hear. I am in no attempt to prove. I'm in "attempt to learn" right now LOL

 

[norapture]

Considering I don't believe in getting deep into complexly detailed debates and especially attempting to prove anything with severe effort.. Considering I'm studying this right now, I figured I'd point out some verses to consider on that subject norapture.

Matthew 24:36-51

Revelation 14:6

Now, just for clarification, when reading in Matthew the point of verses 40 & 41 "...one shall be taken, and the other left..." is connected to verse 45 "Who then is that faithful and wise servant... " & verse 48 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;"

This is telling of people who claim to be "Christians" and who have not followed God in their heart, but only in word of mouth. So they know who Jesus is, but the one who SERVES Jesus is the one taken, and the other is left. This is not meaning "believer & unbeliever" if you consider the context of the scripture.

OK ceptor what happens to the ones left behind (verse 51)

Now the time frame this takes place. (Verse 29)

What is Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17:22-37 , and Luke 21
about, what are these chapters and verses about. (His coming)

In Luke 17:34 same subject , as in Mt 24 verse 37 they ask him where Lord. He says where soever the body is , thither will the eagles be gather together. ( fowls) Rev.19:17-21

So in Mt 24 this takes place when he returns

Now let me ask you when will the son of man be revealed at a rapture or his coming?

 

[Ceptor]

OK ceptor what happens to the ones left behind (verse 51)

Now, this is all from what I think God is showing me, but don't get too deep on me. lol If there is something that seems contradictory I'll consider it, but I see none here really.

Regarding verse 51 - Does this not sound like "portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ?


Revelation 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:6
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


And when the Day of the Lord comes and Jesus doesn't take one home when the wrath of God is poured out (Revelation 6:17) would that not be "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites:" ?

For what reason would God pour His wrath out on His Church? Are those of us who accepted Christ Jesus who are saved the one's to say:

Revelation 6:16-17
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


If Matthew 24:31 says Jesus is coming and "shall gather together His elect"... Then Jesus says in Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away" which is obviously a reference to God's wrath. The flood was destruction as the wrath of God, So Jesus says it will be the same when He comes, sudden destruction.. as it says in Revelation 6:17 it is the "wrath of the Lamb" who we know to be God, and who has obviously come as a thief "as in the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Therefore the "cut him asunder" sounds perfectly fitting to me, as the "portion with the hypocrites" seems to be the wrath of God obviously. I would be weeping too if it were me... lol

-----------------------------------------

Regarding your allusion to verse 29 in chapter 24 of Matthew. You're referring to Jesus using the word "tribulation" here. But there is a problem with the perception of wording you are using. Jesus didn't speak english and didn't use that word to describe any dedicated time period either. It is a word that means suffering.

Strong's Concordance:

Short Definition: persecution, affliction, distress
Definition: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

2347 thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in"; tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options").

Jesus uses this word in Matthew 13:21

Matthew 13:21
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Jesus wasn't referring to a time period when He used the word here. He was referring to "or persecution"... another word describing the same circumstances.

But lets look at the context of the chapter to see if this fits with what I'm saying. Lets not stop reading at 29, and see what 30 adds to it.

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


So Jesus says "after the tribulation of those days" which is what you're referring to and assuming, or implying, that He is talking about the "Day of the Lord" which is the "wrath of the Lamb"...

But he isn't talking about the wrath of God being poured out here in this verse, for Jesus is the one pouring out the wrath of God because HE is the Lamb, and in the verse He puts "those days" before Him coming and the tribes of the earth mourning.

Then in Matthew 24:38-39 WELL AFTER verses 29 and 30 He goes on to say this:


Matthew 29:38-39
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be


So the word "tribulation" here is absolutely not the "Day of the Lord" or the "wrath of the Lamb" at the end of days.

Jesus says here "And knew not..." ------ In the days that God is pouring His WRATH and fierce anger out on the unbelievers THEY WILL NOT be "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" lol :laugh:

The tribulation Jesus is referring to here has been going on since the day of His crucifixion up until now. But it has recently been getting very much more intense and Matthew 24:33-34 is referring to everything He has mentioned in the chapter here, not just a little verse.

Maybe I will do a separate post on this, but the "tribulation" Jesus is referring to is from Revelation 6:1 to 6:8 where seals one through four are opened. None of the things described in the first four seals are new. There is no peace now, there is tons of killing now, the barley for a penny means people will barely make enough to buy food and the oil and wine are the rich getting richer. Oil and wine are expensive, they are are a reference to the rich which have, and are, still not hurt by the things going on during these seals breaking.. Which is a perfect description of right now. The rich are doing quite well and are not suffering judgment from God as I type this. And the fourth seal says a fourth part of the earth is killed with sword, and hunger, and death of other kinds. If you look at the statistics of the world today, this is exactly what is happening. Watching the tv isn't going to show you this though. The "rich" watch tv........ They don't want to see all the death around them, and they don't.

Now let me ask you when will the son of man be revealed at a rapture or his coming?

The rapture is His coming. Christ says so Himself:

Matthew 24:29-31

The words in these three verses answers that entire question. "the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man comming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

I can see now why I used to get confused long ago attempting to study this. People mix things up and set particular words as time periods and don't read it as God has written it. Don't over complicate it. God wasn't writing computer code, He wrote it for us to know what happens. He also didn't write everything in Revelation all mixed up and out of order. I've seen people skip this and overlap that and connect the seven seals to the seven trumpets and such..

:laugh: It's not wrote that way. The seventh seal is the beginning of the seven trumpets if they would just stop trying to make it a mystery book. God is not the God of confusion. I started understanding it when I stopped listening to all the silly men and started listening to God.

I had one man say what I just wrote, and all my confusion on the subject has left me. There are things I could be wrong about sure.. but it all looks pretty straightforward to me. I should have been at God's feet asking what HE meant the whole time.

I really thank Bendito for busting my chops too. Because I should have been studying. Instead of listening to men I could have been listening to God the whole time. They MAKE it confusing to people if you listen to the labels they put on everything God wrote. I just had to quit assuming they knew something I didn't with how they mix and cobble everything up!

 

[norapture]

No is all from what I think God is showing me, but don't get too deep on me. lol If there is something that seems contradictory I'll consider it, but I see none here really.

Regarding verse 51 - Does this not sound like "portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ?


Revelation 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:6
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


And when the Day of the Lord comes and Jesus doesn't take one home when the wrath of God is poured out (Revelation 6:17) would that not be "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites:" ?

For what reason would God pour His wrath out on His Church? Are those of us who accepted Christ Jesus who are saved the one's to say:

Revelation 6:16-17
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


If Matthew 24:31 says Jesus is coming and "shall gather together His elect"... Then Jesus says in Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away" which is obviously a reference to God's wrath. The flood was destruction as the wrath of God, So Jesus says it will be the same when He comes, sudden destruction.. as it says in Revelation 6:17 it is the "wrath of the Lamb" who we know to be God, and who has obviously come as a thief "as in the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Therefore the "cut him asunder" sounds perfectly fitting to me, as the "portion with the hypocrites" seems to be the wrath of God obviously. I would be weeping too if it were me... lol

-----------------------------------------

Regarding your allusion to verse 29 in chapter 24 of Matthew. You're referring to Jesus using the word "tribulation" here. But there is a problem with the perception of wording you are using. Jesus didn't speak english and didn't use that word to describe any dedicated time period either. It is a word that means suffering.

Strong's Concordance:

Short Definition: persecution, affliction, distress
Definition: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

2347 thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in"; tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options").

Jesus uses this word in Matthew 13:21

Matthew 13:21
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Jesus wasn't referring to a time period when He used the word here. He was referring to "or persecution"... another word describing the same circumstances.

But lets look at the context of the chapter to see if this fits with what I'm saying. Lets not stop reading at 29, and see what 30 adds to it.

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


So Jesus says "after the tribulation of those days" which is what you're referring to and assuming, or implying, that He is talking about the "Day of the Lord" which is the "wrath of the Lamb"...

But he isn't talking about the wrath of God being poured out here in this verse, for Jesus is the one pouring out the wrath of God because HE is the Lamb, and in the verse He puts "those days" before Him coming and the tribes of the earth mourning.

Then in Matthew 24:38-39 WELL AFTER verses 29 and 30 He goes on to say this:


Matthew 29:38-39
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be


So the word "tribulation" here is absolutely not the "Day of the Lord" or the "wrath of the Lamb" at the end of days.

Jesus says here "And knew not..." ------ In the days that God is pouring His WRATH and fierce anger out on the unbelievers THEY WILL NOT be "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" lol :laugh:

The tribulation Jesus is referring to here has been going on since the day of His crucifixion up until now. But it has recently been getting very much more intense and Matthew 24:33-34 is referring to everything He has mentioned in the chapter here, not just a little verse.

Maybe I will do a separate post on this, but the "tribulation" Jesus is referring to is from Revelation 6:1 to 6:8 where seals one through four are opened. None of the things described in the first four seals are new. There is no peace now, there is tons of killing now, the barley for a penny means people will barely make enough to buy food and the oil and wine are the rich getting richer. Oil and wine are expensive, they are are a reference to the rich which have, and are, still not hurt by the things going on during these seals breaking.. Which is a perfect description of right now. The rich are doing quite well and are not suffering judgment from God as I type this. And the fourth seal says a fourth part of the earth is killed with sword, and hunger, and death of other kinds. If you look at the statistics of the world today, this is exactly what is happening. Watching the tv isn't going to show you this though. The "rich" watch tv........ They don't want to see all the death around them, and they don't.




The rapture is His coming. Christ says so Himself:

Matthew 24:29-31

The words in these three verses answers that entire question. "the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man comming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

I can see now why I used to get confused long ago attempting to study this. People mix things up and set particular words as time periods and don't read it as God has written it. Don't over complicate it. God wasn't writing computer code, He wrote it for us to know what happens. He also didn't write everything in Revelation all mixed up and out of order. I've seen people skip this and overlap that and connect the seven seals to the seven trumpets and such..

:laugh: It's not wrote that way. The seventh seal is the beginning of the seven trumpets if they would just stop trying to make it a mystery book. God is not the God of confusion. I started understanding it when I stopped listening to all the silly men and started listening to God.

I had one man say what I just wrote, and all my confusion on the subject has left me. There are things I could be wrong about sure.. but it all looks pretty straightforward to me. I should have been at God's feet asking what HE meant the whole time.

I really thank Bendito for busting my chops too. Because I should have been studying. Instead of listening to men I could have been listening to God the whole time. They MAKE it confusing to people if you listen to the labels they put on everything God wrote. I just had to quit assuming they knew something I didn't with how they mix and cobble everything up!

Yes the Rapture is his Coming,
We can agree on that.

Just not sure if you are saying
Its before tribulation or after.

Would you also say rapture, coming, and resurrection are the same?