Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Why does God send people to hell?

Correct, God does send people to hell. Both you and @B-A-C are correct. God sends to hell those who choose to go there.



Correct. At the same time I will argue that no good person will stay with God in heaven if He tortures the wicked. The wicked instinctively know that God is good and that torture is impossible. What they don't grasp and this is where @B-A-C is correct, is that hell doesnt need torture to be terrifying.

Torture is always evil as I explain here Discussion on Torture. God is not evil as prophets who knew God better than us clearly tried to explain. David in Psalm 145:17, Job in Job 34:12 and John in 1 John 1:5.

Most Christians have just not meditated on this fact (torture = evil) and considered all scripture on the topic of hell. They usually stop at and or cherry pick those mentioning fire, darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 gives a reason for weeping and gnashing of teeth, it is separation.

Luke 16:19-31 describes suffering in fire, it seems our spiritual bodies cope much better. And Rom 2:6 makes sessions in fire seem viable.

John 3:19 explains that darkness is a metaphor for evil. Evil will take place in hell. Picture a Democrat run city.
God does not "torment" anyone. The scripture says.......

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Whose torment is it? It is their own torment not coming from God.

When people know and discover that all their bad choices in not accepting Jesus Christ to be their savior, their own conscience will torment them for NOT choosing what was right and true.
 
Simple math.

Creator + omniscient (all knowing) = no free will.

If you are all knowing you will know that the being you creating will be evil and not ever repent. As Rom 9 explains He can create from the same lump of clay a vessel unto honour or a vessel unto dishonor.

Now no free will would be perfectly fine if there was no eternal damnation. But there is.

As such when you teach the above equation and add eternal hell, you arrive at a teaching that suggests God is pure evil.

As a Christian, we need to have a valid answer and not dance around the question. Unless we don't care that the unsaved believe God is evil.The unsaved will ask 'how and why' we preach on true free will and a good God when simple math of: Creator + ominsicient + eternal hell = evil.

How would you explain the correct equation? I insert a limited in front of omniscience. As some also correctly teach, God knows all 'there is to know' as opposed to all that can be known. Someone's choice is not something that 'can' be known.
God knows every choice you will make in this life before you choose it. God knowing what you will choose did not, and does not make you choose it. You are the one who makes every decision whether it be good or evil.

God said.....

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
 
God knows every choice you will make in this life before you choose it. God knowing what you will choose did not, and does not make you choose it. You are the one who makes every decision whether it be good or evil.

God said.....

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I agree but feel you are not grasping the argument being made.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

For a person to become a vessel of "honor" he must first depart from "iniquity". That requires a free will choice.

Again, I agree with you, but you are not understanding the point being made.

God can make a vessel unto dishonour with the appearance of free will. If He is the creator and all knowing, He has made a vessel according to His choice of honour or dishonour.

The below equations are sound, you need to pick one or make one I have not listed.

1. Omniscient + Creator + Eternal hell = no true free and evil God
2. Omniscient + Creator + Annihilation = no true free will and semi good God (annihilation not really good)
3. Limited omniscience + Creator + Eternal hell = True free will and good God.

If you keep quoting scripture showing that God has given us free will, you are just dancing around the point being made. As I have said to you, some Christians correctly teach and believe that God knows all that 'can' be known. Something like a person's choice to repent is not something that can be known, IE Limited omniscience to uphold being good.
 
If everyone on the earth is in a fallen state and everyone who has ever existed why would God need to send anyone to hell?Seems to me he doesn't have to he just doesn't raise them up to eternal life.People forget that this is what the bible teaches.So if its true I ask does God send anyone to hell?
Jesus preached more on Hell than anyone.
Given the Final Judgment from The Judge then his punishment on unrepentant sinners is just, fair, and good.
Anyone's opinion otherwise is irrelevant.
I hope you're not suggesting "everyone goes to heaven; "eventually".
 
Its a gospel of hope like it or not - you can't buy it you can't purchase it and you can't raise yourself from the dead you are completely reliant on the grace of our Lord every last one of us.All will be raised up for judgement every last soul.Some by faith many facing the white thrown Judgement who will be judged by their deeds no one knows the outcome of that judgement it has not happened.Many will need some grace and many will need a lot of grace.I would like to believe in universalism but I don't because there are truly evil people on the earth who commit evil acts daily preying on other Human Beings killing raping molesting and any other evil act you can think of . I am not talking about the average person who fights personal sin.

God is the God of the living not the dead.All will be raised up the oceans will be emptied of the souls in it all will be brought to judgement.Some raised up for Heaven and some raised up for Hell.Many will be surprised at the Judgement thinking they are saved best to approach humbly and with humility.

You won't find that you can convert people by taking their hope away telling them they are going to hell in fact it will be the exact opposite.They will turn from you especially today.Everyone has a chance to be saved right up to the last moment it is never over until death and that same hope should be preached.We should not be looking at non believer as hell bound that's your Judgement In this day and age it has to be preached very gently or many will be lost.

Hope has to always be there and be preached or its not Christianity.

Just because God knows does not mean predestination - why do we preach the Gospel if that's true .Why does he send his prophets to try to change things and of course no one listens which is why we are in this deep mess if only we would listen today.They heard Jonah and the city was saved - it shows you things can change if we listen but we don't..
 
God already knows.

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

God already knows most people will not be saved. "Many" will go through the wide gate to destruction. "Few" will enter the narrow gate
that leads to life.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

God already knows not everyone who thinks they are saved, actually will be. "Many" will say to me...

John 6:70; Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
John 6:71; Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Jesus already knew Judas was going to betray Him in advance, before He did it.

God Himself hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Exod 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

God knows what people will do before they are born. God knew Jesus would be crucified before He was even born.

This whole "God knows the future" thing causes many to put the cart before the horse.

If God never created some people, they would never go to hell. Because they never got the chance to sin and choose death.
So what does He do? never create them? Of course not. Your choice is more important to God than your final destination.
God creates people knowing that "many" will choose the narrow gate. They don't have to choose it, but they will.

2Thes 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thes 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

God knew before the world was even created people would fail. He already had a plan before the world was even created.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
1Pet 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

God doesn't want people to follow Him who were forced to follow Him. ( that's Islam )
You better believe in my God, or I'll chop your head off.

God wants people who choose to follow Him of their own choice.
 
Last edited:
If God never created some people, they would never go to hell. Because they never got the chance to sin and choose death.
So what does He do? never create them? Of course not. Your choice is more important to God than your final destination.
God creates people knowing that "many" will choose the narrow gate. They don't have to choose it, but they will.
That would be analogous to a father giving his daughter the keys to his car even though he knew she would be killed in an accident that evening because he didn't want to interfere with her choice to drink and drive.
 
I think the ones who think they are saved and are not are the ones who think its a free ride - they believe but never stop doing evil because they don't want to repent don't want to stop doing evil but they want to be saved.So as long as they believe in Jesus no matter what they do they are saved in their belief.But that's not what the bible says.Universalism is wrong.

As a example if a person murdered another but denies the crime and gets off it has never been dealt with you have not been absolved of that sin by the courts of Humanity.But because they secretly confessed they are saved.Are you sure you want to face God like that?Jesus says make sure no one else will show up with something against you or you will pay the price.That murder victim will be there crying out for Justice and none has been given.Justice will be served God has told you this.
 
That would be analogous to a father giving his daughter the keys to his car even though he knew she would be killed in an accident that evening because he didn't want to interfere with her choice to drink and drive.

Exactly. But how many parents do exactly this. Their children have a drug or alcohol problem. But they buy them cars anyway.
The thing is, parents don't know future, so we have a hope that it will turn out differently.

If my kids die in a car accident that would be bad. I hope it never happens, but they are going to die someday no matter what, so
in the scheme of eternity, the how and when doesn't matter that much. This life is just a vapor. It won't even last one second
compared to a billion-trillion years. It's eternity that matters.

On the other hand, there are parents that have kids at home 18, 19, 20 years ( and older ) and they never let them drive, because they might die. I know someone exactly like this, he has a 20 year old son that doesn't have a drivers license.

You're taking away their choice to live. God or bad, you're taking away their life.

Since their going to die anyway, why not let them make the choice of how they want to do it. Don't abed them and buy
narcotics and alcohol for them ( some parents do this also, a guy I work with smokes pot with his son on the way to work everyday )
but don't take away their ability to live free.

Let your kid have a motorcycle, let them ride a bike. let them climb trees. They might die, yes.
But on the other hand, they might never truly be alive.

As mentioned many times here on TalkJesus, I used to be a fireman, I used to ride the tailboard of firetrucks and go into burning houses.
No one made me do it, it was my choice. It's how I wanted to live at that time.

Being a policeman, fireman, miner, soldier, pilot, trapeze artist, or even a telephone lineman is dangerous work. But someone
has to do these things. Too many people live in the prison of fear, because of what "might" happen.
 
Last edited:
Another example that I was talking about - Lets take Putin he claims to be a Christian but when hes Judged a huge choir of voices will be crying out for Justice all the innocent souls that have died under his rule he is covered in blood and does not see it.World leader carry a great weight on their shoulders they should be aware of it.I can't see him getting past it faith or not.But it is not for me to judge that belongs to God I sure would not want to be him'
 
I don't want to judge if anyone is going to hell I have no idea of the great mercy of God I need to be concerned with my own soul.I would and have judged with human judgement which falls far shorter than the mercy of God its why we hope.
 
Its a gospel of hope like it or not - you can't buy it you can't purchase it and you can't raise yourself from the dead you are completely reliant on the grace of our Lord every last one of us.All will be raised up for judgement every last soul.Some by faith many facing the white thrown Judgement who will be judged by their deeds no one knows the outcome of that judgement it has not happened.Many will need some grace and many will need a lot of grace.I would like to believe in universalism but I don't because there are truly evil people on the earth who commit evil acts daily preying on other Human Beings killing raping molesting and any other evil act you can think of . I am not talking about the average person who fights personal sin.

God is the God of the living not the dead.All will be raised up the oceans will be emptied of the souls in it all will be brought to judgement.Some raised up for Heaven and some raised up for Hell.Many will be surprised at the Judgement thinking they are saved best to approach humbly and with humility.

You won't find that you can convert people by taking their hope away telling them they are going to hell in fact it will be the exact opposite.They will turn from you especially today.Everyone has a chance to be saved right up to the last moment it is never over until death and that same hope should be preached.We should not be looking at non believer as hell bound that's your Judgement In this day and age it has to be preached very gently or many will be lost.

Hope has to always be there and be preached or its not Christianity.

Just because God knows does not mean predestination - why do we preach the Gospel if that's true .Why does he send his prophets to try to change things and of course no one listens which is why we are in this deep mess if only we would listen today.They heard Jonah and the city was saved - it shows you things can change if we listen but we don't..
All good but your last.
Here, I think the truth and understanding of it is impossible.
Just b/c God knows any and all eventual outcomes doesn't mean He's forcing someone.
If we (humans) could understand God's playbook, we'd see there are many, sadly, who will never change.
We don't know who they are or the variables of which they could or keep them from God.
Many of our Christian fathers used be bad people.
I would probably die of shock if Kilary actually repented and turned to God. Realistically, the odds of that happening are so low they're incalculable.
 
I'm not going to even entertain I can accurately answer this.
God and how He knows and works is beyond human comprehension. It's not a cop out. It's not an excuse.
God is many things especially Good, Perfect, Loving, but also Fair and Just.

There's a movie, "The Adjustment Bureau" with Matt Damon.
It deals with Fate and an "otherworld entity". I won't ruin it for anyone.

Free will was given to angels and look what happened. God took His "hand/protection" off Lucifer so he had no "safety net".
Angels can't repent b/c they were created with the FULL knowledge of God and who/what He is. They have no excuse.
 
If God does not cast anyone into hell, then who does it?
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​
(Matthew 13:41-42 KJV)
So they have been lying to us all, You are saved by your deeds.
Not sure who the "they" are, but to the Catholic, your deeds comprise part of your salvation. Not all of it, but that part God knows you can do. So faith plus works.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​
(James 2:24 KJV)

Rhema
 
Why? Knowing someone's future is not the same thing as deciding someone's future.
I may know you're going to do something, ( or not do something as the case may be ) but I'm not the one who made you do it.
But if one knows what is going to happen and does nothing, one is an accessory to evil if what happens is evil.
I might not make someone jump off a bridge, but if I know it's going to happen and I do nothing, I am complicit.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men (and God) to do nothing” – Edmund Burke, 1795

Rhema
 
But does He know before the person is created that He or his assistants will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire?
No.

While God knows everything, God can only know that which is knowable. God cannot know that which cannot be known. As the Future does not exist, it therefore cannot be known.

Rhema
 
But if one knows what is going to happen and does nothing, one is an accessory to evil if what happens is evil.
I might not make someone jump off a bridge, but if I know it's going to happen and I do nothing, I am complicit.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men (and God) to do nothing” – Edmund Burke, 1795

Rhema
God as the Creator and "how" He does things is the standard.
The Creator created the laws of the universe so He can "bend/break" them.
His judgment of Good and Evil is perfect. Ours is not.
 
Back
Top