70 Weeks of Daniel Prophecy - Already Fulfilled or Not?

[Bill]

@ bill --- your post 193. Those 7 yrs of tribulation which the last 3.5 yrs.are the great tribulation.

A question. When and where is the marriage super of the lamb going to take place. Because Jesus Christ is going to be taking born-again believers which are also the church / His BRide up to be with Him for the marriage super of the Lamb.

At Jesus return, in the end

 

[Sue D.]

Based on what?

 

[Dave M]

A pre-trib rapture has not been made up by anyone.

sure it has they say the church is not in the tribulation correct??

ok here is a question what is the church job? what are we all supposed to do?? proclaim the gospel correct? the good news about Yawey - Jesus correct?

Who is doing exactly that according to scripture during the tribulation? the 144,000 Jews who are sealed are part of the Church as they are proclaiming the gospel of Yawey, they are NOT proclaiming the Law of mosses.

Hope that makes sense, and clears up that false doctrine of the Pre-trib rapture for you.

 

[B-A-C]

A pre-trib rapture has not been made up by anyone. It's been in Scripture from the beginning.

I can give you a few verses that specifically say "After" the tribulation. Can you give us a single one that says "before" the tribulation?

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

The third passage that has the phrase "gather up", but does not say "before" the tribulation. The "great trumpet" mentioned in Matt 24:31, is the same trumpet mentioned in verse 16 below.
The Bible doesn't mention two raptures. The Bible doesn't mention two trumpets at different "gatherings". To add this, would be to add to the Bible.

1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage is usually connected to the rapture, but also does not say "before" the tribulation.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cor 15:53; For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

ἐπισυνάγω
episunagō
ep-ee-soon-ag'-o
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

This passage is usually connected to the rapture, but also does not say "before" the tribulation.

"Rapture" or "caught up" is describing the captivation of one's undivided attention, it's a mental state of being "caught up" instead of a physical state. Remember when Jesus ascended, the disciples were all gazing at him? Then one of the two angels declared his second coming: "men of galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw him go into heaven." So, instead of us being caught up into heaven, Jesus will descend FROM heaven to us; also, the whole picture of this "like manner" should also include the church at that time - the resurrected saints and the survivors in 1 Thess. 4:16-17, right? You see, the original disciples were "gazing up into heaven", I think it's not a far stretch to say that this end time would also be gazing up into heaven as Jesus returns - in like manner, is it?

Also, by the bible's own definition, "air" in 4:17 is not up in the sky as most people believe, but it's referring to this sinful world - Satan is the "prince of the power of the AIR, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," Eph. 2:2. When Jesus returns, He'll defeat Satan and take over the power of the AIR as the real prince. That's the start of the millennial kingdom.

 

[B-A-C]

"Rapture" or "caught up" is describing the captivation of one's undivided attention, it's a mental state of being "caught up" instead of a physical state

Hmmm...

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

I doubt those who are "in the tombs" have a mental state of undivided attention. Also this same word is used in...

Acts 8:38; And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:39; When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:40; But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.

It appears Philip was physically moved to another location. Not merely "mentally" moved.

1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The saints who are alive at the time of the rapture, will not be "caught up" to meet Jesus, until after those who are "dead in Christ" ( saints who have already passed away )
But both the dead and the living are raptured. Do the dead have a "mental state" to be gathered with Jesus in the clouds? Or is their spirit physically moved?
(Some say their old bodies are physically moved) but the Bible says our old bodies return to the dust, and our spirits return to God.

Psa 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Eccl 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

However we do get "new" bodies.

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

This same word is also used here.

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3; And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
2Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Now Paul says he doesn't know if this was physically or just spiritually, but either way.. his body or spirit was moved to the 3rd heaven.

 

[B-A-C]

Also, by the bible's own definition, "air" in 4:17 is not up in the sky as most people believe, but it's referring to this sinful world - Satan is the "prince of the power of the AIR, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," Eph. 2:2. When Jesus returns, He'll defeat Satan and take over the power of the AIR as the real prince. That's the start of the millennial kingdom.

But as I mentioned in post #204, the rapture doesn't happen until after the tribulation. Satan won't be around during the millennial reign. He'll be imprisoned in a pit during this time.
Jesus doesn't give Satan the final defeat at the beginning of the millennial reign, He defeats Satan after the millennial reign.

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Sue D.]

sure it has they say the church is not in the tribulation correct??

ok here is a question what is the church job? what are we all supposed to do?? proclaim the gospel correct? the good news about Yawey - Jesus correct?

Who is doing exactly that according to scripture during the tribulation? the 144,000 Jews who are sealed are part of the Church as they are proclaiming the gospel of Yawey, they are NOT proclaiming the Law of mosses.

Hope that makes sense, and clears up that false doctrine of the Pre-trib rapture for you.

@Dave M. -- the church is talked about in the first few chapters of Revelation. After that the tone changes. Chapter 4 starts out "Come up here , and I will show you the things which must take place after this. "

What is the job of the church? The pastor -- being a man -- is to teach God's Word-- to encourage those in the congregation to study on their own and share the gospel unto salvation with all who will listen.

The 144,000 are talked about in Rev 7. Vs 2 and another angel having the seal of the living God. Do not harm the earth , the sea or the trees till we have sealed the servants on their foreheads" all those who were sealed were 144,000.of all the tribes of Isreal -- 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
Vs 9 after these things I looked , and behold , a great multitude which no one could number of all nations , tribes, peoples and tongues. ....vs 14 these are the ones who come out of the Great tribulation.

No one is saying they were teaching the laws of Moses.

There Are three or 4 views of when the rapture will take place. The pre /mid / post trib and some with pre-wrath. There are passages that Could support each of them.

 

[Sue D.]

But as I mentioned in post #204, the rapture doesn't happen until after the tribulation. Satan won't be around during the millennial reign. He'll be imprisoned in a pit during this time.
Jesus doesn't give Satan the final defeat at the beginning of the millennial reign, He defeats Satan after the millennial reign.

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Wasn't Satan defeated when Jesus Christ rose from the dead. ?!

 

[Sue D.]

I can give you a few verses that specifically say "After" the tribulation. Can you give us a single one that says "before" the tribulation?

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

The third passage that has the phrase "gather up", but does not say "before" the tribulation. The "great trumpet" mentioned in Matt 24:31, is the same trumpet mentioned in verse 16 below.
The Bible doesn't mention two raptures. The Bible doesn't mention two trumpets at different "gatherings". To add this, would be to add to the Bible.

1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage is usually connected to the rapture, but also does not say "before" the tribulation.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cor 15:53; For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

ἐπισυνάγω
episunagō
ep-ee-soon-ag'-o
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).

There have been many times of tribulation in our lives and will probably continue to be. That is different than the coming 7 yrs of tribulation.

One aspect of the rapture is the "any time" of it. The imminent timing of the rapture. In a moment/ in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I doubt those who are "in the tombs" have a mental state of undivided attention. Also this same word is used in...

Because they’re resurrected, dead no more! God is of the living, not the dead. I don’t doubt those who are brought out of the tomb can have a mental state of undivided attention.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But as I mentioned in post #204, the rapture doesn't happen until after the tribulation. Satan won't be around during the millennial reign. He'll be imprisoned in a pit during this time.
Jesus doesn't give Satan the final defeat at the beginning of the millennial reign, He defeats Satan after the millennial reign.

When Satan’s imprisoned, he’s surely defeated. After the kingdom, he’s not only defeated, but eliminated for good.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It appears Philip was physically moved to another location. Not merely "mentally" moved.

Man, why does this always have to be such a "this or that and nothing in between" false dichotomy? Just because "caught up" could be a sense of mental state doesn't mean its application on the physical state is totally negated. In Acts 1:14, the verse I quoted, wasn't Jesus PHYSICALLY "caught up" into heaven? The thing is, the church, as in all of His disciples at the time on Mount Olives, were NOT physically caught up with him. It doesn't say that they rose up into the sky to bid farewell to the Master. Instead, as Jesus ascended, they were mentally caught up until the angel snapped them out of their captivated state of mind, meanwhile their feet stayed on the ground - the whole time. Therefore, since Jesus will return IN LIKE MANNER, the church will gaze up at him IN LIKE MANNER as well. It's not just about the verb, but the noun. Physical applies to Phillip as well as Jesus, but not necessarily the church in that specific context.

 

[Sue D.]

Man, why does this always have to be such a "this or that and nothing in between" false dichotomy? Just because "caught up" could be a sense of mental state doesn't mean its application on the physical state is totally negated. In Acts 1:14, the verse I quoted, wasn't Jesus PHYSICALLY "caught up" into heaven? The thing is, the church, as in all of His disciples at the time on Mount Olives, were NOT physically caught up with him. It doesn't say that they rose up into the sky to bid farewell to the Master. Instead, as Jesus ascended, they were mentally caught up until the angel snapped them out of their captivated state of mind, meanwhile their feet stayed on the ground - the whole time. Therefore, since Jesus will return IN LIKE MANNER, the church will gaze up at him IN LIKE MANNER as well. It's not just about the verb, but the noun. Physical applies to Phillip as well as Jesus, but not necessarily the church in that specific context.

In Acts 2 Jesus was caught up physically , yes. But who says they were Mentally caught up / captivated state of mind until an angel snapped them out of their captivated mind. Their feet never leaving the ground.whwre so you get that from?!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

In Acts 2 Jesus was caught up physically , yes. But who says they were Mentally caught up / captivated state of mind until an angel snapped them out of their captivated mind. Their feet never leaving the ground.whwre so you get that from?!

Were their feet off the ground when they were gazing up into heaven? Where did you get that from? You know, I don't make things up, all I'm doing is just using Acts 1:14 to explain 1 Thess. 4:17.

 

[Sue D.]

Man, why does this always have to be such a "this or that and nothing in between" false dichotomy? Just because "caught up" could be a sense of mental state doesn't mean its application on the physical state is totally negated. In Acts 1:14, the verse I quoted, wasn't Jesus PHYSICALLY "caught up" into heaven? The thing is, the church, as in all of His disciples at the time on Mount Olives, were NOT physically caught up with him. It doesn't say that they rose up into the sky to bid farewell to the Master. Instead, as Jesus ascended, they were mentally caught up until the angel snapped them out of their captivated state of mind, meanwhile their feet stayed on the ground - the whole time. Therefore, since Jesus will return IN LIKE MANNER, the church will gaze up at him IN LIKE MANNER as well. It's not just about the verb, but the noun. Physical applies to Phillip as well as Jesus, but not necessarily the church in that specific context.

Acts 1: 14 "these all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus , and with His brothers."

Jonathan-- you are the one who said that.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Acts 1: 14 "these all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus , and with His brothers."

Jonathan-- you are the one who said that.

OK, my mistake, it's actually Acts 1:11. Man I hate these verse numbers.

 

[Sue D.]

Vs 11 reads" who also said Men of Galilee why do you stand gazing up into heaven ? This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner as you saw Him go I to heaven" .

Your comments are not here.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Vs 11 reads" who also said Men of Galilee why do you stand gazing up into heaven ? This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner as you saw Him go I to heaven" .

Your comments are not here.

Were they "caught up in the air" in this verse? If not, then what you implied is not here either.

 

[Sue D.]

Jesus christ is the only one who ascended physically up to heaven.

You had commented that the disciples had Mentally ascended up and an angel had to get their attention and get them mentally back to join their bodies.