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Hello B-A-C, you may wish to proof read these two lines.
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Hello B-A-C, you may wish to proof read these two lines.
DHC
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Ephesians 4
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer
just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them,
because of the hardness of their heart;
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every
kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in
accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer
just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them,
because of the hardness of their heart;
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every
kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in
accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
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Hi Eddy Fire,
Thanks for your reply. If I misunderstood your position in your earlier post encouraging B-A-C, please forgive me.
As for your most recent, and rather long, post, I'm sorry to say I do get a bit lost whenever such long messages are posted.
But I do acknowledge your neutrality in such complicated debates.
Thanks for your reply. If I misunderstood your position in your earlier post encouraging B-A-C, please forgive me.
As for your most recent, and rather long, post, I'm sorry to say I do get a bit lost whenever such long messages are posted.
But I do acknowledge your neutrality in such complicated debates.
I have re-posted your earlier post to seek clarification where I misunderstood you.
.
Ok. This I agree with, but in terms that for a believer to "sin" they first need to go back under the law/10 commandments to establish righteousness by works of the law (which is unbelief in Jesus). Anyone who rebuilds this method to attain righteousness are making themselves a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.
Please correct me if I misunderstand you here, but it seems that your saying that obedience to the law/10 commandments is proof that we are righteous. You seem to be suggesting that Christians should be living their physical lifestyle in complete perfection in obedience to the law.
I agree that believers have been made the righteousness of God in Christ.
And what can a Christian do that is not righteous and is unbelief?
This would be if someone turned back to establishing righteousness by works of the law. This is unbelief when someone rejects righteousness in Christ and instead seeks to establish their own righteousness by obedience to the law/10 commandments.
B-A-C
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God was God in the Old testament, he was still God in the New Testament, and he is still God today.
Matt 5:28; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Jesus said it. (Jesus is God)
Exod 20:14; "You shall not commit adultery.
God said it.
In other words, if you haven't quit being your old self, you don't have a new self.
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B-A-C
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No once again you are confusing salvation and sanctification. Our righteous has nothing to do with it.
Good works aren't what saves us. Good works are what prove we are saved.
Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Matt 3:8; "Therefore bear fruit that shows your repentance;
John 15:16; "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Rom 7:4; Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
If you haven't repented, and you aren't bearing fruit. Christ isn't in you.
Matt 7:20; "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
John 15:4; "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5; "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
John 15:7; "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
John 15:8; "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
John 15:9; "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:11; "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
John 15:12; "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Saying you saved doesn't mean anything. Faith without works (proof) is dead.
If you are living as you did before, you aren't a new man or new creation created in the image of Christ.
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Hi Barny,
thanks for your kind words.
It is not so much a neutral position as one that sits back (not removed though) and can see that something is missing and hence my long reply, attempting to point a few things out to help with viewing the whole as from the whole view, both your vision of it is OK and B-A-C's vision is too -and everyone else is either following everyone else or seriously have an obstruction to such a whole view (or are OK but it is not for me to add names).
hence, the quip about a colon-cleanse, using B-A-C's portion on commas and colons etc, is somewhat telltale of what can and too often does happen with us if we get stuck hard on certain Scriptures and unable to either move on or pass that point and see that there should be a free flowing of life in us, each and every one of us who are named after Him Who gave His life for us so that we may be free and no longer bound up!
the point in this thread is common to many as someone stated, referring to B-A-C's efforts on this sort of topic
what happens is that we can get so engrossed with a little portion, so blocked that we really do need to sit down somewhere and let it pass.
I'm not being crude, but drawing on real life, we can see so many examples of how life is, and if we remember Who is the Author and Designer and Keeper of all life, with all it's mysteries yet to be discovered, we might find that peace we once tasted and begin to see clearly again that all things are beautifully placed in His wisdom for His glory and that for reasons that can leave us speechless, we are included in such an important and central way.
It is then that the answers we seek in threads like this become clear and the need to dispute disappears as we all come together in praise and worship, wonder and awe.
did you look at that post I suggested?
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/44659-saint-sinner.html#post219987
it shows something about the difference in the word used as 'sin'
remember our tongue needs interpretation back into the meaning that edifies in love and then it has to be spoken or written in this case into an understanding dialogue
I have attempted to bring us all back to first looking to Jesus and then looking afresh at what we see to be that it is OK for both to be right in part and to agree on the things we do agree with then in peace work together for good how it might all fit in the perfection it does fit in.
that also explains my examples about boats etc, to stir our thoughts to look beyond our present condition and be transformed afresh in our minds.
too much debate leaves everyone tired and no better off and I am sure that a Bible Study is meant to lift you and refresh you?
this is not about that silly notion of agreeing to disagree - no.
I also seek to say a few bits and let the Spirit do some talking in us to help our infirmities of our minds and sometimes hearts.
look again at that sin word and see if you can see what I see, Barny
thanks again for your kindness to all
B-A-C
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Rom 2:4; Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6; who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 2:9; There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentiles,
Rom 2:10; but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentiles.
Rom 2:11; For there is no partiality with God.
Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.
Rom 2:23; You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
Rom 2:24; No wonder the Scriptures say, "The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."
Rom 2:25; The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God's law. But if you don't obey God's law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6; who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 2:9; There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentiles,
Rom 2:10; but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentiles.
Rom 2:11; For there is no partiality with God.
Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.
Rom 2:23; You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
Rom 2:24; No wonder the Scriptures say, "The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."
Rom 2:25; The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God's law. But if you don't obey God's law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.
Thiscrosshurts
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What if someone can't quit,should he then just walk away feeling doomed and hopeless because they are just to dirty and will just mess up the bathroom anyway.
We all know how important clean bathrooms are.
I would recommend they continue seeking and studying and praying,turning their focus on Jesus(believing on the one whom God sent) and letting the Holy Spirit strengthen the inner man until he(the new creature) is able to overcome in Christ thereby giving God the glory and not those who simply have more human will power.
In your religion it seems no use to pray or believe God's promise to deliver from sin based on the fact that they sin.
Then only those who glory in their flesh, will power and sheer determination can be clean enough.
If that is the case then we would not even need Jesus.
We just go after the ones who's sin show the most or the who's sins we find more disgusting.
Example:Telling a homosexual he must change but allowing divorced and remarried couples to continue in adultery and saying something about the grace of God for remarried couples and calling the homosexual an abomination.
B-A-C
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There is a HUGE difference between still struggling with sin you have repented of and willfully continuing to sin.
Rom 7:15; For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16; But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
Rom 7:17; So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
There is a difference between sinning sometimes, and making a practice of that sin.
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In 2 Sam 11 we see David committed adultery with Bathsheba. In Psalms 51 we see David repented of that sin.
But he stayed married to Bathsheba. In fact Solomon came from this marriage. While I agree that divorce and remarriage isn't what God wants.
I think adultery can be repented of. In fact God said David was a man after his own heart. ( Acts 13:22; )
I believe homosexuality can be repented of also.
God called adultery a sin, but he never called it an abomination.
He did call homosexuality an abomination. ( Lev 18:22; )
Also I don't believe God ever destroyed an entire city because of adultery.
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B-A-C
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I totally agree. But claiming you have the Holy Spirit is one thing. If the Spirit is in you, there will be evidence.
Hello barny,
I still don't think you quiet understand me but we are getting closer. If you look at my other posts I have said that to sin, we first have to seperate from Christ, through that seperation we do acts of sin and that brings us back under the law. Also the true meaning of sin is seperating from God, for "in Christ" we are freed fom sin. We know that we have seperated from God through acts of sin which is transgression of the law. When we transgress the law we are under the law but it is through the seperation from God that we transgress.
I still don't think you quiet understand me but we are getting closer. If you look at my other posts I have said that to sin, we first have to seperate from Christ, through that seperation we do acts of sin and that brings us back under the law. Also the true meaning of sin is seperating from God, for "in Christ" we are freed fom sin. We know that we have seperated from God through acts of sin which is transgression of the law. When we transgress the law we are under the law but it is through the seperation from God that we transgress.
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B-A-C
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Free in the sense that we no longer have to be a slave to sin and let it master us. ( Rom 6:14-17; )
Also free from the penalty of sin. ( Rom 3:23; Rom 6:23; )
Thiscrosshurts
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Davids marriage was not adultery because Bathsheba's husband was dead.
Wouldn't staying married to someone who is not your first spouse or theirs be willfully practicing adultery vrs. struggling with adultery or fornication?
God not only hates divorce he does not recognize it therefore he does not recognize a second or third our fourth marriage.
The only way to repent would be to divorce and pray for reconciliation with the first spouse or spouse of your youth.
God will never leave or forsake us and marriage is supposed to be a physical representation of Christ and the church.
Where exactly is the thin line where one crosses over line between I can't seem to stop and I won't stop.
The urges can fool a person into thinking they want to so it might be confusing to those who can't glory in their own will power.
Exactly how long does it take to learn the truth when there are 1000 different opinions on what that really is (it took me 4 years to know it is a person).If Jesus or Paul only taught us then we could probably get it quickly.If Paul,James and Peter taught us there would be confusion because they did not agree on everything.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
The household of Cornelius was granted repentance that glorifies God and not man.
Don't mistake flesh management systems that glorify those with more will power with genuine God given repentance.
When we receive God given repentance(power) we will know it was from God because we will only want more of that Spirit of freedom.
Like getting thrown out of church?
I remember the Charismatic movement of the 70's and the first Christians to speak in tongues were not well received.
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B-A-C
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Hmmm... really?
2 Sam 11:3; So David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, "Is this not Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?"
2 Sam 11:4; David sent messengers and took her, and when she came to him, he lay with her; and when she had purified herself from her uncleanness, she returned to her house.
2 Sam 11:5; The woman conceived; and she sent and told David, and said, "I am pregnant."
2 Sam 11:6; Then David sent to Joab, saying, "Send me Uriah the Hittite." So Joab sent Uriah to David.
2 Sam 11:7; When Uriah came to him, David asked concerning the welfare of Joab and the people and the state of the war.
2 Sam 11:8; Then David said to Uriah, "Go down to your house, and wash your feet." And Uriah went out of the king's house, and a present from the king was sent out after him.
Looks to me like Uriah was alive and well when Bathseba got pregnant.
I think it's different for different people.
Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"
In this case it was three years plus one more. Is it four years for everyone? I don't know, I don't think it's a formula, I think it's a relationship.
If I understand you correctly (and please correct me if I am misunderstanding you) then it seems that we follow different gospels.
We had discussed this before and I had asked you many times what level of good behavior determines whether we are saved or whether we are non-believers practicing sin. That discussion revealed that you had no scriptures to answer this question.
I ask you now to consider that if there are no scriptures to support a doctrine, then maybe it's incorrect.
Jesus was asked what works we should do, and he answered that our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
And these are the good works that proves we are saved.
And unbelief includes turning to justification by works of the law. If a professing Christian believes they must show proof of salvation by good works of deeds of the law, then they are doubting that their faith is counted for righteousness.
Unfortunately you see good works as some unknown level of good behavior/obedience to the law. And as there is no scripture to support this unknown level of proof doctrine, then it might be time to consider its wrong.
You can't mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.
As Jesus himself said, our works are to believe in him, John 6:29
And believers keep his commandments, 1John 3:22,23
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave uscommandment.
And the fruit that we see scripture speaking of in the lives of believers?
This fruit is Christ, the firstfruits.
1Cor 15:20
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
This is the fruit that shows our repentance from dead works of self-righteousness.
This is the fruit that Christians are known by. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. And that without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:27-28
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Believing in Jesus is our works, John 6:29
Unbelief is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9
Heb 4:1-
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
Believe in Jesus, (which means we don't mix works of the law with grace).
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B-A-C
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1 Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
John 13:34; A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 15:12; This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:17; These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Thiscrosshurts
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David was not married to her while her husband was alive.
Since her husband was dead it was not adultery once they were married.
I was reffering to couples who's spouse is still living.
Mark 10:11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
Matthew 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Even in the case of divorce because of adultery there is no provision to remarry.
1 Corinthians 7:11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife
The reason they must remain unmarried is so they are not practicing adultery or sin.
He also called shellfish an abomination:
Leviticus 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you
Which sin do you suppose causes more families to break up,divorce or the other.
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