antimonianism

[B-A-C]

According to some.. all we have to do is believe in Jesus.

Do demons believe in Jesus? ( Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; ) are they saved?
Do the people who are doing miracles in Jesus' name in Matt 7:22; believe in Jesus? are they saved?

Mormons claim to believe in a Jesus, are they saved?
Certain polytheistic "Christian" denominations claim to believe in Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Confucius, Krishna, and give them all equal billing, are they saved?

========================

Certain people who claim to be Christians also claim to be homosexuals. Are they sinning?
There are people who claim to be Christians who are having adulterous affairs with married people. Are they sinning?

Are these people in the Spirit when they are doing these things, or are they in the flesh?

 

[Chad]

Let's discuss something called sanctification

John 17
16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 "Sanctify 9 them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "And f for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

1 Peter 1
but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Ephesians 4:22-24
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you z put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and a be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you b put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[Barny]

The difference between Thomas and this topic is.. Jesus had some hard physical evidence to show him.. but you do not. For your hard proof you need to find one Christian who has not sinned whilst they are a Christian. Can you name anyone?

You say Christians cannot sin and are not condemned. But even the apostle Peter could sin and be condemned: Gal 2:11-14 Peter's hypocrisy was a sin against the truth of the Gospel... and Paul says he stood condemned.
"But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned"
Paul rebuked Peter and followed Luke 17:3 ""Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."
The evidence we have is that Christians do sin. Saying Christians do not sin is not real faith it is denial of simple fact.
The scripture in a number of places mentions a sinning brother:
e.g.
1 John 5:16 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life."

Gal 2:11-18
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

For if I build again the things which I destroyed (justification by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER.

The law is a stumbling block for Christians. There are many scriptures warning us not to turn back to works of the law. Unfortunately Peter also was being tempted by this stumbling block and when Paul saw it he rebuked him for it.

Consider James 1:12-15
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

"Temptation" and "lust" refers to not trusting God but seeking to establish your own righteousness by works.
Peter was tempted to turn back to justification under the law, as we see in Gal 2. Paul rebuked him for it, as we all should do if we see a fellow Christian do this.

Heb 10:26-27, further explains ones position should they sin willfully.
For if we sin wilfully ( turning back to works of the law, Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace) , there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Here it speaks of those who have received the gospel/knowledge of the truth and yet "willfully" choose to turn to the law to establish their own righteousness, thus making themselves transgressors/Sinners, Gal 2:18. They willfully sinned. They're in unbelief and lost.

 

[RawScot]

antimonianism - that's a long fancy word, what does it mean?

This is from wikipedia

Antinomianism in Christianity is the belief that under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Antinomianism and the Protestant doctrine of sola fide (justification through faith alone) are historically related. (But they are not identical to each other)

Key verses in antimonianism are...

(KJV)
1Jn 3:6; Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:9; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 6:2; God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

They take these verses to mean Christians can not sin. Literally, they believe Christians can't sin even if they wanted to. They say the only sin a Christian can commit is the sin of unbelief.
Christians have no obligations to the moral teachings of Paul, to moral teachings of Jesus or even to love God or our neighbors. They concede doing these things are good, but not required.
They believe the moral teachings of Jesus and the 10 commandments only apply to Jews.

Sins like homosexuality, murder, lust, adultery, stealing, lying, fornication no longer apply once you become a Christian. They are considered "bad behavior", but not sin.
You can still be punished by man's law for doing these things, but not by God.
Antimonianists believe the only act of grace was at the moment of salvation. There is no further need for grace, because you can't sin anymore.
They say Christians don't need to ask for forgiveness, because we can't sin. Also we don't need to forgive other Christians, because they can not sin.

There have been many threads and debates about this on TJ. It seems many threads that start off about another subject end up going back to this same subject.
It would be nice if we could keep this all to one thread. That way people who don't want to be involved in the debate don't have to avoid all of the threads on TJ.

I say separate the sheep from the goats. Do you believe Christians can still sin?

The moral law is to make us conscious of sin and it is grace by which we are saved. How did we get faith? By Grace.

 

[Barny]

According to some.. all we have to do is believe in Jesus.

Do demons believe in Jesus? ( Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; ) are they saved?
Do the people who are doing miracles in Jesus' name in Matt 7:22; believe in Jesus? are they saved?

Mormons claim to believe in a Jesus, are they saved?
Certain polytheistic "Christian" denominations claim to believe in Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Confucius, Krishna, and give them all equal billing, are they saved?

========================

Certain people who claim to be Christians also claim to be homosexuals. Are they sinning?
There are people who claim to be Christians who are having adulterous affairs with married people. Are they sinning?

Are these people in the Spirit when they are doing these things, or are they in the flesh?

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" believed in Jesus. There were no works of good behavior/lifestyle he could do. That thief submitted to God's righteousness and was saved by grace.

Although demons believe God is, they do not submit to God's righteousness. Satan is the father of lies. And liars deny that Jesus is the Christ.
1John 2:22,23
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

You offer examples of adultery and homosexuality who claim to believe in Jesus.
But what of your own lifestyle? Is it perfect? The answer for all of us is, no.
But this imperfect physical life we are living is not how righteousness is determined for those who believe in Jesus.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

As for those religions for allegedly believe in Jesus, Jesus is the only way.
Acts 4:11
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

 

[RawScot]

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" believed in Jesus. There were no works of good behavior/lifestyle he could do. That thief submitted to God's righteousness and was saved by grace.

Although demons believe God is, they do not submit to God's righteousness. Satan is the father of lies. And liars deny that Jesus is the Christ.
1John 2:22,23
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

You offer examples of adultery and homosexuality who claim to believe in Jesus.
But what of your own lifestyle? Is it perfect? The answer for all of us is, no.
But this imperfect physical life we are living is not how righteousness is determined for those who believe in Jesus.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

As for those religions for allegedly believe in Jesus, Jesus is the only way.
Acts 4:11
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

I agree here, but it's what we do about our sins that matter. Do we stay in the stench of adultery or homosexuaslity or keep fighting it if it is ready to consume us? The latter and most importantly. As Augustine said "Lord, commandeth what thou wilt, and wilt what thou commandeth". Basically, Father, you have shown yourself to me, now give me the "ability" to follow you, the secret is always go to God, alays be dependant upon Him forhelp as He is the perfect parent and he tells us he will never forsake us in Heb 13:5

 

[DHC]

Let's discuss something called sanctification

John 17
16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 "Sanctify 9 them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "And f for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

1 Peter 1
but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Ephesians 4:22-24
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you z put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and a be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you b put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

What is sanctification?

A simple definition is as follows;

Sanctification refers to the state or process of being "set apart", i.e. made holy.

Let's look at one reference to "Holy" in the book of Isaiah;

Isaiah 6
1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne,
lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he
covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD Of hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.

God is "Holy, Holy Holy", this is repeated three times, make no mistake
in your understanding of the eternal nature of God. God is Spirit and
the Spirit is perfect, no fault, no error, without darkness. Profound emphasis is
placed on the perfect purity of our Lord in His being and all His actions.

Now we dispense with the simplistic definition of sanctification.

Sanctification is the complete and eternal purification granted
to those who believe in Jesus. They inherit the very nature
of God Himself, they are transformed by the indwelling Spirit
of God Himself. They become faultless and possess the very
mind of Christ Himself. They reflect in the sanctified state,
the very Holiness of God.

Matthew 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Perfection in the flesh is not attainable, never was, never will be.

Stop whipping the flesh with the cords of self righteousness.

Crucify the flesh, crucify the old man or women. You are
a new Spiritual creation in Christ, the old is obsolete.

Take hold of the new creation that is a gift from our Lord
Jesus Christ. Wear the royal attire that is befitting of those
who Love our Lord. You are sanctified already, so be the
sanctified, Holy person that you were created to be.

 

[RawScot]

What is sanctification?

A simple definition is as follows;

Sanctification refers to the state or process of being "set apart", i.e. made holy.

Let's look at one reference to "Holy" in the book of Isaiah;

Isaiah 6
1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne,
lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he
covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD Of hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.

God is "Holy, Holy Holy", this is repeated three times, make no mistake
in your understanding of the eternal nature of God. God is Spirit and
the Spirit is perfect, no fault, no error, without darkness. Profound emphasis is
placed on the perfect purity of our Lord in His being and all His actions.

Now we dispense with the simplistic definition of sanctification.

Sanctification is the complete and eternal purification granted
to those who believe in Jesus. They inherit the very nature
of God Himself, they are transformed by the indwelling Spirit
of God Himself. They become faultless and possess the very
mind of Christ Himself. They reflect in the sanctified state,
the very Holiness of God.

Matthew 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Perfection in the flesh is not attainable, never was, never will be.

Stop whipping the flesh with the cords of self righteousness.

Crucify the flesh, crucify the old man or women. You are
a new Spiritual creation in Christ, the old is obsolete.

Take hold of the new creation that is a gift from our Lord
Jesus Christ. Wear the royal attire that is befitting of those
who Love our Lord. You are sanctified already, so be the
sanctified, Holy person that you were created to be.

Yes sancification is being set apart for Gods work through jesus Christ. But the presence of sin is still with the sanctified, Sanctification takes away the power of sin, Glorification takes away the presence of sin and Justification takes away the penalty of sin.
I would say Holiness is a sacredness.
R

 

[B-A-C]

You offer examples of adultery and homosexuality who claim to believe in Jesus.
But what of your own lifestyle? Is it perfect? The answer for all of us is, no.
But this imperfect physical life we are living is not how righteousness is determined for those who believe in Jesus.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

I know I'm not perfect. All along I have been saying I am able to sin and so are you. We are forgiven, but not sinless.
If sin is missing the mark, I'd say we've all missed the mark.

 

[james1523]

Gal 2:11-18
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

For if I build again the things which I destroyed (justification by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER.

The law is a stumbling block for Christians. There are many scriptures warning us not to turn back to works of the law. Unfortunately Peter also was being tempted by this stumbling block and when Paul saw it he rebuked him for it.

Consider James 1:12-15
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

"Temptation" and "lust" refers to not trusting God but seeking to establish your own righteousness by works.
Peter was tempted to turn back to justification under the law, as we see in Gal 2. Paul rebuked him for it, as we all should do if we see a fellow Christian do this.

Heb 10:26-27, further explains ones position should they sin willfully.
For if we sin wilfully ( turning back to works of the law, Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace) , there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.



Here it speaks of those who have received the gospel/knowledge of the truth and yet "willfully" choose to turn to the law to establish their own righteousness, thus making themselves transgressors/Sinners, Gal 2:18. They willfully sinned. They're in unbelief and lost.

Paul rebuked Peter. We rebuke brethren for their sin. Therefore Peter sinned. Stumbling and sin is the same in this context.

re: temptation and lust.. temptation and lust refers to temptation to sin and lust of the flesh which causes us to sin... check your dictionary... why do you keep redefining every word of the bible to mean faith and works?

The Galatians who turned back to the law through unbelief were not lost. Here is proof:
They had received the Holy Spirit "Gal 3:21.... Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?",
They were children of God and covered by Christ's blood: "Gal 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
They were all one in Christ Jesus: "Gal 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

This proves that Christians can turn to works of law but this does not negate their salvation, their position in Christ. The works of law is the grass, hay, stubble built upon their foundation of Christ and this results in loss of reward, but they are not "unsaved" or "unbelievers" (1 Cor 3). Once a person is born again, their spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they are children of God and there is no way to be "unborn".

 

[Barny]

Let's discuss something called sanctification

John 17
16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 "Sanctify 9 them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "And f for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

1 Peter 1
but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Ephesians 4:22-24
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you z put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and a be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you b put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Hi Chad,

Sanctification/holiness is attained in Christ.

Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit (Christ, 1Cor 15:20.) is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Christians cannot add to or improve on what Jesus has already done for us through the cross.

 

[Barny]

I agree here, but it's what we do about our sins that matter. Do we stay in the stench of adultery or homosexuaslity or keep fighting it if it is ready to consume us? The latter and most importantly. As Augustine said "Lord, commandeth what thou wilt, and wilt what thou commandeth". Basically, Father, you have shown yourself to me, now give me the "ability" to follow you, the secret is always go to God, alays be dependant upon Him forhelp as He is the perfect parent and he tells us he will never forsake us in Heb 13:5

Hi RawScot,

Sadly adultery (Mark 10:11,12) amongst Christians is very common in this age where divorce and marrying another is so acceptable that pastors even marry such people.
But, as we both recognize, none of us is perfect in this physical life.
And should we do wrong we will not profit by it. Consider King David's adultery/murder. God disciplined him.

But how good a life we live is not how our righteousness is determined. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

I agree with you that we are all far better off trusting in God as He is the perfect parent. We are all far better off treating each other with love/respect rather than lying/cheating/adultery, etc.

 

[Barny]

I know I'm not perfect. All along I have been saying I am able to sin and so are you. We are forgiven, but not sinless.
If sin is missing the mark, I'd say we've all missed the mark.

Hi B-A-C,

We both agree that we're not perfect in the physical.
You call these failings "sin" whereas I use God's definitions of sin and apply it as scripture does.

If anybody wants to call our physical failings "sin" that ok. But the risk is they will misunderstand scripture with such traditional definitions, and then judge righteousness based on how good a lifestyle we live. This then becomes works of the law, which is unbelief.

 

[Barny]

Paul rebuked Peter. We rebuke brethren for their sin. Therefore Peter sinned. Stumbling and sin is the same in this context.
re: temptation and lust.. temptation and lust refers to temptation to sin and lust of the flesh which causes us to sin... check your dictionary... why do you keep redefining every word of the bible to mean faith and works?
The Galatians who turned back to the law through unbelief were not lost. Here is proof:
They had received the Holy Spirit "Gal 3:21.... Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?",
They were children of God and covered by Christ's blood: "Gal 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
They were all one in Christ Jesus: "Gal 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
This proves that Christians can turn to works of law but this does not negate their salvation, their position in Christ. The works of law is the grass, hay, stubble built upon their foundation of Christ and this results in loss of reward, but they are not "unsaved" or "unbelievers" (1 Cor 3). Once a person is born again, their spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they are children of God and there is no way to be "unborn".

Hi james,

Please read my post again and note James 1:12-15.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

And Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully ( turning back to works of the law, Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace) , there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

First it starts with lust which then leads to sin, and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. This is where one sins (turning back to works of law, Gal 2:18) willfully after having the knowledge of the truth/gospel. These verses speak of the process of being overcome.

 

[papajim]

antimonianism - that's a long fancy word, what does it mean?

This is from wikipedia

Antinomianism in Christianity is the belief that under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Antinomianism and the Protestant doctrine of sola fide (justification through faith alone) are historically related. (But they are not identical to each other)

Key verses in antimonianism are...

(KJV)
1Jn 3:6; Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:9; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rom 6:2; God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

They take these verses to mean Christians can not sin. Literally, they believe Christians can't sin even if they wanted to. They say the only sin a Christian can commit is the sin of unbelief.
Christians have no obligations to the moral teachings of Paul, to moral teachings of Jesus or even to love God or our neighbors. They concede doing these things are good, but not required.
They believe the moral teachings of Jesus and the 10 commandments only apply to Jews.

Sins like homosexuality, murder, lust, adultery, stealing, lying, fornication no longer apply once you become a Christian. They are considered "bad behavior", but not sin.
You can still be punished by man's law for doing these things, but not by God.
Antimonianists believe the only act of grace was at the moment of salvation. There is no further need for grace, because you can't sin anymore.
They say Christians don't need to ask for forgiveness, because we can't sin. Also we don't need to forgive other Christians, because they can not sin.

There have been many threads and debates about this on TJ. It seems many threads that start off about another subject end up going back to this same subject.
It would be nice if we could keep this all to one thread. That way people who don't want to be involved in the debate don't have to avoid all of the threads on TJ.

I say separate the sheep from the goats. Do you believe Christians can still sin?

Yes I do believe christians sin, but not when they are in Christ. Let's reason this out. God is holy, God is also righteous, and in God there is no sin. Christ is the son of God, He is also holy and righteous and in Him there is no sin, they are one.
God is life and in Him is no death at all only life. If God is life and God is holy and righteous then there is life also in holy an righteous.
Sin is not of God, and in sin there is death, so we see that there is a seperation in righteousness and death, life and death cannot coexist together, sin and righteousness cannot coxeist together. To do one is to seperate from the other.
If I am in Christ I cannot sin, because there is no sin in Christ for me to sin I first must seperate from Christ. Sin is of the flesh and there is no life in the flesh, the flesh is then seperate from God which is life.

How do I know that I have seperated from Christ? The law. Sin tells me I have transgressed the law (ten commandments) In Christ I am free from sin, to be free from sin I then must be free from trangessing the law, but only when I am united with Christ can I be free from trangressing the law. When I am in Christ there is no sin in me and where there is no sin there is no law, so where there is sin there is law. If I sin the law tells Me That I am in the flesh and seperated from God.

When I am in the flesh I sin and therefore I am not in Christ at the time I sin. Bye the way, sin starts out in the mind (where the seperation first takes place) and is acted out in the body.

Conclusion: Sin is seperation from God, sin is also seperation from life. In Christ I am seperated from sin and therefore I have life. To seperate from God is death and to unite with God is Life.

In this context 1 John will make perfect sense.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes I do believe christians sin, but not when they are in Christ. Let's reason this out. God is holy, God is also righteous, and in God there is no sin.

I agree. Not "WHEN" they are in Christ. But are we in Christ 100% of the time?
Being in Christ isn't hello I'm your friend, we said hello, I'll talk to you again when I die. Being a Christian is being in constant fellowship, constant communion.
Some will take that to mean 100% of the time, which is impossible. Even with my best friends and my wife and my children, I cannot be in constant communication
with them 24/7. I work, I sleep, I spend time doing others things with other people. That's life. Sometimes I sin, I agree I'm not "in Christ" right at that particular moment.
I ask for forgiveness and I re-establish fellowship with him every day.

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[james1523]

I agree. Not "WHEN" they are in Christ. But are we in Christ 100% of the time?

Positionally, yes!.. experientialy... MOST of the time for most of us (depends upon us). We are already in Christ, and just need to live that out in our experience. We do not have to "try" to be "in Christ" from a position of not being in Christ. Rather, we are already in Christ and we have to try to remain and stay and abide in Christ by keeping His commands...which is to believe in Him and love others.. the key is not to try to get "more" of the Spirit (as pentecostals say), we already have as much of the Spirit as we are gonna get..we did not get half of the Spirit, we got all of Him.. the key is to not quench and grieve the Spirit by ensuring we deny our self.

If we have a desire to pray at any time and any where during the day, if we are continually in contact with God with a thankful heart and attitude..it is a sign we are in Christ. If we are always in our thoughts or emotions and never have desire or thought to pray, then we are probably in our self. Being in Christ in our experience is a work of the Spirit not of ourselves.. but we must make the first step, the Spirit will not force us to pray, and THEN the Spirit will enable us to pray continually. God never sleeps LOL, you find yourself praying when you wake up in the morning and praying when you go to sleep at night, and then many times during the day...then you understand how Christ could spend a whole night praying to the Father and also to rise up early to pray. We need to empty ourselves of our 'self' and yield to the Lord as willing empty vessels so that He can fill us and live through us at all times. The branch stops abiding in the Vine when it stops receiving the life-sap from the trunk and roots so we must always let the Spirit flow in us and put to death our worldly leanings (Col 3:5).. as Col 3:5 indicates.. we are the ones who must put it to death.

 

[james1523]

Some will take that to mean 100% of the time, which is impossible. Even with my best friends and my wife and my children, I cannot be in constant communication

1 Thess 5:7 Pray without ceasing.

This means uninterrupted fellowship with God in our spirit. Does not mean constant utterance of words from our mouth. Rom 8:26 says the Spirit prays for us without words.
We are to pray at all times in the Spirit (Eph 6:18). In the Spirit it is possible to pray 100% of the time... prayer is not utterance of words but fellowship with God. Pray at all times means fellowship with God at all times.. this can mean cultivate the abiding presence of God in your life. There is such a thing as silent prayer.. which is like spending time without someone without speaking to them. We think we are the ones praying. Actually it is the Holy Spirit praying through us.. the Holy Spirit is the real pray-er...our utterances are merely overflows of the words the Spirit is already speaking. This is not a burden because it is not us praying but the Spirit. We are just channels of the Spirit's prayer in us. If prayer is a burden we are not doing it right. And when we are sleep at night, the Spirit is always praying in us in our spirit, even when we are not aware. The disciples slept, but Jesus kept on praying and keeping watch. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and as Christ in us the Spirit is always praying even when we are asleep.

 

[B-A-C]

The simple fact is, we are in the flesh. We are flesh beings.
2 Cor 10:3; For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
our battle isn't flesh vs flesh, it's flesh vs spirit.

This battle doesn't end when you become a Christian, that's when it starts. Before you were a believer, you weren't even in the fight.

Matt 26:41; "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Indeed our flesh is weak, indeed sometimes we enter into temptation.

Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
The Spirit is against the flesh, the flesh is against the Spirit.

Rom 7:23; but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
the flesh (body) wages war against the mind (spirit).

Rom 8:13; for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
We are constantly putting the deeds and desires of the flesh to death. (Not by our own power, but by the Spirit)

Rom 8:6; For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
If you are constantly thinking about lustful desires, you are in the flesh. You aren't in the Spirit. (at least not at that particular moment).

Rom 8:9; However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Some people take this to mean we are obedient to the Spirit 100% of the time. I take it to mean we are obedient most of the time. In fact, if don't have the Spirit within us, we are obedient
zero percent of the time. (well maybe we are obedient by accident once in a while) but if we don't have the Spirit we don't care if we are obedient or not.

Gal 6:8; For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

2 Cor 7:1; Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[B-A-C]

Christians cannot add to or improve on what Jesus has already done for us through the cross.

1 Cor 3:11; For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 3:12; Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Cor 3:13; each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1 Cor 3:14; If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Mat 25:15; "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Mat 25:16; "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Mat 25:17; "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Mat 25:18; "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19; "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20; "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Mat 25:21; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Mat 25:22; "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Mat 25:23; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Mat 25:24; "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Mat 25:25; 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Mat 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Mat 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Mat 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

1 Cor 3:8; Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Matt 6:3; "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
Matt 6:4; so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Jesus isn't the roof (the last thing you put on the house). He's the foundation, the part before the actual building begins.

Luke 6:47; "Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:
Luke 6:48; he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
Luke 6:49; "But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."