antimonianism

[james1523]

Jesus Christ is the foundation (in our spirit). We are the ones who must build upon the foundation (in our soul). But I can point out that the "gold, silver, precious stones" we must use for building, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The "Wood, hay , straw" is the temporal things of man, self and the world (all the ology's and isms.. theology, psychology,. Judaism, Buddhism, , etc).. There are Christians who after salvation pursue man's knowledge in theology, or Buddhist doctrine, or Jewish doctrine.. or even pursue worldly fame, riches or status. These will not stand the test of fire!.. like gold refined by fire. The only thing which can withstand fire, which is eternal, which is gold, is God Himself. So in essence.. it is all of Christ and none of us in the end. When scripture says "be careful how you build", it means be careful what things you put into your soul.. be careful that your mind, emotions and will is constituted with Christ and not other things. In this way, the foundation AND the building is all Christ. 1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[Barny]

1 Cor 3:11; For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 3:12; Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Cor 3:13; each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1 Cor 3:14; If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Hi B-A-C

I was referring to sanctification in my post.

But in regards to your reference to 1Cor3, that is speaking of faith.
Note also 1Pet 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

And James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[RawScot]

Hi RawScot,

Sadly adultery (Mark 10:11,12) amongst Christians is very common in this age where divorce and marrying another is so acceptable that pastors even marry such people.
But, as we both recognize, none of us is perfect in this physical life.
And should we do wrong we will not profit by it. Consider King David's adultery/murder. God disciplined him.

But how good a life we live is not how our righteousness is determined. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

I agree with you that we are all far better off trusting in God as He is the perfect parent. We are all far better off treating each other with love/respect rather than lying/cheating/adultery, etc.

Agreed and I believe that it is not just sleeping around whilst married is unfaithfullness. Not being there for the person, treating them like dirt also, I believe is marriage unfathfullness, and lets face it; being saved by works would end us all in hell, only Grace and faith in Jesus Christ will save us. faith is the means to which the rightousness of Christ is given to us (R.C. Sproul)

 

[DHC]

Why do some of you claim that we are still in the flesh and struggling with sin?

Romans 6
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed?
For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God,
you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You have been set free from sin, if you believe in Jesus.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ states that you are saved by
believing in Jesus. Once you believe you have truly been
set free from sin and death, then you are set free.
It is the unlimited power of God working in and through you.

Just accept the free gift of salvation, believe in Jesus
and God will take care of the rest.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Chad]

Why do some of you claim that we are still in the flesh and struggling with sin?

I have not read all the posts in this thread, but based on your statement here are you saying you do not live in the flesh and you do not struggle with any sin?

I'm asking for clarification so I'm not misunderstanding you. Becoming like Christ is a life long process called sanctification.

You quoted from Paul's writings, so I'll quote from his also

Romans 7

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, n sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. o For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that p in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I q delight in the law of God according to r the inward man. 23 But s I see another law in t my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me u from this body of death? 25 v I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[DHC]

I have not read all the posts in this thread, but based on your statement here are you saying you do not live in the flesh and you do not struggle with any sin?

I'm asking for clarification so I'm not misunderstanding you. Becoming like Christ is a life long process called sanctification.

You quoted from Paul's writings, so I'll quote from his also

Romans 7

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, n sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. o For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that p in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I q delight in the law of God according to r the inward man. 23 But s I see another law in t my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me u from this body of death? 25 v I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Hello Chad, I am honored to receive a question from you.

You will agree with me that the two quotations from ( Romans 7) are present tense.

Who will set Paul free from the body of death (flesh)? Jesus Christ.

Now we turn the page.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

May I ask you a question Chad?

Where did you find this "Becoming like Christ is a life long process called sanctification."

 

[papajim]

Hello Chad, I am honored to receive a question from you.

You will agree with me that the two quotations from ( Romans 7) are present tense.

Who will set Paul free from the body of death (flesh)? Jesus Christ.

Now we turn the page.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

May I ask you a question Chad?

Where did you find this "Becoming like Christ is a life long process called sanctification."

I'll try and answer that question for you DHC, you seemed to be confused about the perfect gift given us in Christ and how we recieve that gift, they are two different things. The things you have shared about us being already sanctified is true, but through faith which is a growing process is how we recieve that gift. If we had perfect faith when we accept Jesus we would live a Christ like life in this world at the time we accept Jesus, but this is a process of spiritual growth it is not instant.

The whole christian experience is an experience of faith we believe and follow what we cannot see, touch, smell, or physically feel. As our faith grows in Christ the righteousness of Christ grows in us until finally our faith is perfected so will our Character be perfected in Christ. If we commint sin it is through rebellion, unbelief, or ignorance (willfull ignorance is rebellion or unbelief). Through faith we walk as He walked, overcome as He overcame. As the moon reflects the light of the sun, we reflect His righteousness. The moon does not have it's own light but reflects the light of the sun, so we do not have our own righteousness but reflect His righteousness.

If we continue to sin in the body it is not of faith, righteousness comes by faith, not sin. Jesus freed us from sin meaning He also freed us from sinning to say less is to show unbelief or rebellion. In Christ we ARE seperated from sin so for us to sin is unbelief. Have you stopped sinning?
If you say no then your faith is not yet perfected in Christ. It is through faith you recieve sanctification, a gift given to you before you were ever born in all it's perfection. Faith is the issue here.

 

[B-A-C]

ere did you find this "Becoming like Christ is a life long process called sanctification."

Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
We need to be putting the body to death, but it doesn't happen immediately.

1 Pet 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
We can go back and conform to our old way if we choose to.

Matt 26:41 "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
How can we be tempted if the flesh is dead?

1 Cor 9:27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
We should practice discipline, it isnt already perfect.

1 Tim 4:7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
The continual renewing is what transforms us, this is an on-going process.

Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Without testing and endurance, we can not become perfect.

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Paul did not consider himself as already being perfect.

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Why would we need discipline if we are already perfect?

Luke 9:23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
Why does Jesus say to do this "daily" instead of just once if our flesh is already dead?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Sanctification not only seems to be instant(even retroactive) but also transferable to unbelievers.
It would be wise to remember this when praying for your spouse and children.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding concerning sin and sinners or sins.
Sin and wrong doing are two different things although they overlap in some areas.
Sin as we should all know by now is "missing the mark".

The mark for Israel was their law and the mark for the rest of humanity was their conscience.
Our mark is to believe on the one God sent.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If I believe on the one God sent then I should believe that he accomplished what he came for.
The sin problem is dealt with,the wrongdoing and self centered carnal nature that causes us to hurt one another is still here and seemingly well.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

God does not allow us to go on hurting people without consequences just as an earthly Father quickly puts down harmful behavior in children,so he will send a rod to correct.The closer you are to him or the more people who are close to him that pray for you the more quickly he will send it.


Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Don't worry nobody is getting away with anything.

 

[Barny]

I have not read all the posts in this thread, but based on your statement here are you saying you do not live in the flesh and you do not struggle with any sin?

I'm asking for clarification so I'm not misunderstanding you. Becoming like Christ is a life long process called sanctification.

You quoted from Paul's writings, so I'll quote from his also

Romans 7

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, n sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. o For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that p in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I q delight in the law of God according to r the inward man. 23 But s I see another law in t my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me u from this body of death? 25 v I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Hi Chad,

Sanctification was through the offering of the body of Christ. There is no process of further sanctification afterwards. It was done once and for all on the cross.
Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

As for Rom 7 that refers to mankind's battle, the flesh v"s the Spirit. Who rules in us. And note the last verses in Rom 7
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me u from this body of death?
25 v I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind (Spirit, Eph 4:23) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

For Christians we have been delivered through Jesus Christ our Lord. And as Rom 8:9 says we "are not in the flesh". That is, we are not ruled by the flesh. Instead it's the Spirit that rules in us. And as long as we believe in Jesus, then we are in the Spirit.

The "process" Christians do go through however, is the perfecting of our faith.
1 Pet 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

And James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[papajim]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding concerning sin and sinners or sins.
Sin and wrong doing are two different things although they overlap in some areas.
Sin as we should all know by now is "missing the mark".

The mark for Israel was their law and the mark for the rest of humanity was their conscience.
Our mark is to believe on the one God sent.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If I believe on the one God sent then I should believe that he accomplished what he came for.
The sin problem is dealt with,the wrongdoing and self centered carnal nature that causes us to hurt one another is still here and seemingly well.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

God does not allow us to go on hurting people without consequences just as an earthly Father quickly puts down harmful behavior in children,so he will send a rod to correct.The closer you are to him or the more people who are close to him that pray for you the more quickly he will send it.


Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Don't worry nobody is getting away with anything.

We need to get a better understanding of what sin really is. In 1Jn 3:4 We are told that sin is transgression of the law even now, I will suggest to you that it goes deeper than that. Through the law comes the knowledge of sin. Sin is apart from God it is not of God and therefore it is seperate from God. To sin is to be seperated from God because it is not of God it is only through the law that sin or seperation is identified. That also goes for sinning and wrong doing.
In Christ we have been reunited with God, what keeps us from reuniting with God is either we don't want to (rebellion) or we don't believe, or ignorance, for christians it is unbelief.
Notice in Genesis 5:24 "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him". To overcome unbelief we simply walk with God.

 

[james1523]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding concerning sin and sinners or sins.
Sin and wrong doing are two different things although they overlap in some areas.
Sin as we should all know by now is "missing the mark".

All wrongdoing is sin .. 1 John 5:17

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus taught many many things are sin. Murder, adultery, lying, hating your brother, lust, not honoring your father and mother, stealing, not loving your neighbor,
not loving God, practicing lawlessness, doing personal financial business in church, and many more things.
To say these things aren't sin, is to say that the teachings of Jesus don't apply to us. If what Jesus taught doesn't apply to you, then you aren't a follower of Christ.
God's definition of sin did not change between the OT and the NT. Everything that was sin in the OT is still a sin in the NT.
Sin is not doing the will of God. Jesus is God. Not doing his will is sin.

Simply saying "Jeez" or "OMG" is taking God's name in vain.
Speeding 2 miles over the speed limit is sin. You aren't being in subjection to governing authorities.
Lusting after someone you aren't married to is sin. This is the same as adultery.
When someone does something you disagree with and "really" or "seriously" in a sarcastic tone, that is sin.
When you cheat on your taxes that is sin.

Paul taught homosexuality, idolatry, being effeminate, being rebellious, lying, cheating, being drunk, and many more things were sin. If Paul was an Apostle
chosen by the Holy Spirit to teach these things, then not obeying them is not obeying God and they are sin.

To teach sin isn't sin, is what Satan did in the garden when he said "you won't die, you will be like God". The fact is, when you do what God says not to do, it's sin.
Gen 3:4; The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
Gen 3:5; "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

He is still telling people today, disobedience to God is not sin.
If you take away the Old testament, and the teachings of Paul, and the teachings of Jesus, what do you have left? Nothing of any value.
This is exactly what cults do.

Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We need to get a better understanding of what sin really is. In 1 Jn 3:4 e are told that sin is transgression of the law even now, I will suggest to you that it goes deeper than that.

That is what I suggest also,that "sin" is more than acts that people do.
Wrongdoing seems to come from sin and not the other way around.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Sin seems more like an entity that has it's own agenda.
This entity causes wrong thought patterns(as opposed to God's thought patterns) that lead to wrongdoing.
Can anyone know for sure that they love the Lord their God with all their heart,soul,mind and strength?
I can't say for certain I even know what those things mean.

All wrongdoing is sin .. 1 John 5:17

Agreed,but wrongdoing is the result of allowing an entity that we should "be" master of be our master.
It seems to me that we need to change our "be" before our "do" will fall in line.
We either "be" the seed of God who can only do what we see our Father do or we be the other seed that can only do what it sees it's Father doing.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I doubt that Peter knew he was "doing" wrong by wanting Jesus to escape torture.
So was Peter sinning?

 

[james1523]

Agreed,but wrongdoing is the result of allowing an entity that we should "be" master of be our master.
It seems to me that we need to change our "be" before our "do" will fall in line.
We either "be" the seed of God who can only do what we see our Father do or we be the other seed that can only do what it sees it's Father doing.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I doubt that Peter knew he was "doing" wrong by wanting Jesus to escape torture.
So was Peter sinning?

Sure, was a sin. Jesus was offended by him for minding the things of man not the things of God. Basically a sin is whatever offends God, whether in speech, thought, action, intent, emotion or anything.
Unrighteousness is the general word that covers everything that is not right doing, living, thought, feeling, speech or intent. We can be unrighteous with other people, animals, God's creation, or even inanimate objects.. even sin because of something we fail to do when we should... a common sin for Christians is sin of presumption.. doing or saying something God does not want us to do, or doing things in a way we think God wants but He doesn't want. An example is Moses striking the rock twice instead of once, symbolising Christ's sacrifice for sin was not sufficient so he struck the rock again symbolising man's effort was needed. Another common sin for people in general is self-righteousness. This causes us to defend ourselves when we are hurt by others, their words or actions. Christ was one who resisted not against evil but overcame evil with good. If we react to people's offenses it is our self-righteousness saying "I am right, you are wrong", it's like saying "you offended me and I'm upset, but I'd never offend anyone like you have" we fail to remember that we are sinner as much as they are in God's eyes, but only for the blood of Christ. Declaring our rights is also a sin, the Christian has no rights except the righteousness of Christ. There is right to freedom of speech and things like this in the worldly societies but the Christian has no right to freedom of speech.. the Christians' speech is constrained by the Father's will. Only the self declares its "rights"..and the self is the greatest enemy of God and out of which all sin comes. Even independence can be a sin, independence from God and from others in the church, God has made us members of a body but we want to do our own thing in own way without others, this is a sin of not discerning the Body of the Lord that we are part of His Body and He is the head and we are joined to other members. Even denominations are in sin because they are organized divisions that violates the principle of oneness of the body of Christ. So we think sin is only a few things like homosexuality or abortion and we would never do those, but do we gossip? do we think evil of others? do we support divisions in the body of Christ by upholding our denomination above others? Whatever is against God's heart and will is sin. Sin exists wherever God's kingdom is not established, where the heart is not under His direct rule and control.. where the kingdom of self and independence rules and reigns.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Well said James,
You paint a very grim but accurate picture of what we are up against.

Jesus said our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees who were experts at the law.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

We are held to a higher standard where doubt,wavering,fear and unbelief in the one whom God sent are sin.
If I say I am a sinner saved by grace then I have locked myself into that role of allowing sin to be master and Lord with my own words and I need Jesus to get back on that cross for me again and again.
If I say by faith like the apostle Paul:
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Then I separate the baby from the bath water and when the tub is drained we will see the baby more clearly.
If I am a sinner then I go down the drain with the bath water.
So Baby and bathwater are two different things.

 

[papajim]

That is what I suggest also,that "sin" is more than acts that people do.
Wrongdoing seems to come from sin and not the other way around.

I'm glad to see that you have been thinking out of the box. Most of what we believe is what we have been taught by others and when we study we study to support what we have been taught.
If we do not understand the root of the problem we will not understand the solution. Many christians recognize that sinning is wrong and rightfully so, but thier point of attack against sinning is to try and keep the law. Sinning is a product of a bigger problem and therefore cannot be resolved by trying to keep the law. Many other christians throw out the law all together and then have no way of recognizing or identifying the problem. Paul tells us that the law is our schoolmaster and when the faith comes we are no longer under the schoolmaster. I believe that Paul is saying that when the fullness of faith comes, faith when it is complete and that we have Christ in His fullness through that fullness of faith then we are no longer under the schoolmaster. In other words the law is a teacher to teach us something about ourselves and our relationship with God, and when that relationship is full we no longer need the law.

Now the greater problem is not sinning as I have already mentioned it is a product of the bigger problem, the bigger problem is a broken relationship with God. Through that broken relationship we have become seperated from God. If this is true then the perfect solution is to unite with God. Jesus has done this for us already, but we have to want it with all of our hearts to be healed from the seperation. Jesus tells us how to occompolish this in His prayer in Jn. 17. Note in verse 21 this is a powerful prayer "That they all may be one; as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me". Jesus is praying that we would have the same relationship with them that they have with each other. Wow that is an incredible relationship. It is only through this kind of relationship that we can be victorius over sinning. Now we have a sense of direction that can and will be accomplished by a group of believers before Jesus comes back. It is through this kind of relationship that our faith will be completed and we will recieve the fullness of Christ so that the world will not see us but Christ in us as He is!

 

[NetChaplain]

moral law is of no use or obligation

Hi BAC - Just wanted to point out that Antinomianism, in its primary definition means lawlessness, which is the status of the Christian who walks in the Spirit, "against such there is no law" (Gal 5:23). Moral law (Mosaic or man's law) is earthly and is used to address unregenerate man in this life. "The law of the Spirit of life" (Rom 8:2) is used to address regenerate man in this life and in the world to come.

"There are many pious souls throughout the Church who conscientiously believe that the only possible way to produce obedience, to attain practical holiness, to secure a godly walk, to keep our evil nature in order, is to put Christians under the law. They seem to fear that if souls are taken from under the "school-master" (Gal 3:24, 25), with his rod and rudiments, there is an end to a moral order. To them, the only possible alternative to law is lawlessness (antinomianism). -C H Mackintosh

The overriding significance is, "Are we evaluating our position in God by Christ, or by something that is an admixture of Christ and man?

 

[brakelite]

Sanctification was through the offering of the body of Christ. There is no process of further sanctification afterwards. It was done once and for all on the cross.
Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

As for Rom 7 that refers to mankind's battle, the flesh v"s the Spirit. Who rules in us. And note the last verses in Rom 7
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me u from this body of death?
25 v I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind (Spirit, Eph 4:23) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

For Christians we have been delivered through Jesus Christ our Lord. And as Rom 8:9 says we "are not in the flesh". That is, we are not ruled by the flesh. Instead it's the Spirit that rules in us. And as long as we believe in Jesus, then we are in the Spirit.

Hi Barney. There are other scriptures which tell us that Sanctification is an ongoing process as well as something which was effected through Christ. It was Calvary that made it possible, and it is Christ's ongoing intercession and mediatorial role as our High Priest in heaven that makes it effective. Jesus prayed that the Father would sanctify us through His word. His truth. (John 17:17.) Jesus later said to Hid disciples that He would send the Holy Spirit after He had risen from the dead and the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. Thus sacntification of the Spirit through God's word, His truth, is a process. Peter tells us that we are sanctified by the Spirit, and through the sprinkling of the blood of Christ. Now what can that mean?

In the OT Israel were shown the gospel as well as us. For them however, rather than through once for all sacrifice on the cross, they were given the services and rituals of the sanctuary. This was a year long process beginning with the Passover, and culminating in the Feast of Tabernacles. The service itself began with the sacrifice of the victim , be it dove, lamb, pigeon, heifer, goat, whatever, and ended with the priest ministering the blood within the tabernacle, sprinkling the blood before the altar of incense and the veil. On the Day of Atonement he went into the Most Holy Place to minister within there, just once a year. This was all a type of the gospel. Not just a one off singular event which began and ended with the sacrifice, but involved a process of ministerial action on the part of the priests within the tabernacle.

This was a copy of the true tabernacle which was created by God in the heavens in which Jesus now ministers as our High Priest. If you read carefully through Hebrews looking at the full message there, (not just a few verses here and there to suit your argument) you will discover that the OT services and the priesthood was atype, a forerunner, of the message of the gospel fulfilled through Christ. This ministry that Jesus is performing is an essential part of the gospel. It is the work of sanctification. The cross justified us, the intercession of Christ sanctifies us. This is what Peter was reffering to when he said...Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprink;ling of the blood of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:2.

Paul also suggests that sanctification is not a one off event in the past, but is something which is performed daily with ourselves as forsake sin and seek Christ's righteousness. See 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 and also Romans 12:1,2. Note Barny that the will of God is our sanctification, and we find this only through forsaking sin , seeking holiness, and submission to the Holy Spirit of God.

Read particularly Hebrews 9. You cannot help but to see that the gospel must include Christ's intercession in the heavenly sanctuary.

Now with regards to the last part of the above quoted post of yours. I find it curious that you would quote Romans 8 with regards to walking in the flesh as opposed to walking in the Spirit when we are discussing antinonianism. Paul says, and says very clearly that there really cannot be any misunderstanding or ambiguity, that those who walk in the Spirit are in effect fulfilling the righteousness of law. Romans 6:3,4. For what the law could not do in that it was wek through the flesh, (in other words those who are in the flesh cannot obey the law) God, sending His Son in the lkeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin the flesh that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. And a little later he confirms this by saying, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.!!!!
Now Barny, you are saying that the law of God cannot be obeyed, worse even, that the laws of God no longer are in effect!!! My friend, that is the teaching of a carnal mind. I put it to you, that not only is the law of God still a binding law upon man, but it is indeed possible to obey it, if we are constantly walking in the Spirit. And there is the rub. Abiding in Christ, walking in the Spirit, is and must be our main priority. Not commandment keeping, not obedience, for if we focus upon these things we willl soon find that in our own strngth we will fail, but if we focus our whole mind, soul, and body and strength upon He who has promised to sanctiofy us through His word, His truth, then who are we to claim it is impossible to obey? Then, and only then, can we claim that we are without sin; then, and only then, can we claim we cannot sin.