Baptism - Here we go again

[PloughBoy]

Living water or flowing water is used to represent the unseen teachings, the doctrine of God, The teaching that fall down from heaven like rain or shower or the morning dew. .Likewise blood another metaphor used in parables in the same way .In the wilderness using dew to deliver the word of God as manna setting it on Holy ground , represented by dew .

Deuteronomy 32:1-2 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Giving us ears to hear his understanding. The baptism of the water of the word .

In the garden demonstration. . the beginning of the tree day and night demonstration promised in Isaiah 53 . The parable of father and the Son working as one with no aid from others. The father put the disciples asleep three times to indicate salvation is the work of two .Jesus suffered through not receiving help in prayer the help he hoped he would receive. Two performing the work of One. The Father bruising the heel of the powerless Son. Jesus crying out for strength .


Sweat (h20) used to indicate the crying out of the sufferings and the finished work of two . Many have tried to make it literal blood or literal water . Spirit is used in the same way to indicate the unseen work of the Holy Spirit .

Water as sweat as it were drops of blood introduces a parable is in view .

Luke 22:43-45 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,


In that way we are baptized daily by the water of the word our daily bread as mana delivered of the holy ground as dew.

yet there is some one who seems to understand
The DEW that falls down from Heaven. That only a True Child of GOD, can receive And Jesus said:

King James Bible
But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

 

[Garee]

yet there is some one who seems to understand
The DEW that falls down from Heaven. That only a True Child of GOD, can receive And Jesus said:

King James Bible
But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

I would think the doctrine of "unfamiliarity" as to its usage should be looked at .

Yes meat that the disciples knew not of . . doing the will of the unseen father . The daily bread of unfamiliarity called Manna or hidden Mana in Revelation 2

Manna literal y meaning what is it ???.

God is not a man as us there is no familiarity between the Creator and the creation . .(none )

Some have created a false familiarity they call patrons saints (necromancy )another teaching authroity other than sola scriptura. A hierarchy of men seeking after disembodied workers with a familiar spirits, (3500 and rising) the abomination or law of the fathers that was made to no effect through all things written in the law and prophets ,(sola scriptura)

Josiah moved by the reforming restoring power of the book of the law, the Bible .

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

The idea of familiarity with God who is un knowable past finding out . . builds contempt and hatred leading to murder. ( I will be like God Isaiah 14:14 )

Jesus's own family turned against him . unsearchable

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Clouds represent the unseen presence of God .

No familiarity even in the godhead . The Son of man replied ; not as I will but as the father who worked in Jesus. Jesus delighted in doing the will of the Father. Jesus knew who it was that did comfort, teach and bring to the mind of his children the thing he has taught us .

Satan claiming he is the god of unfamiliarity (Creator) as legion, many gods as worker with familiar spirts in the likeness of men .

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[Rhema]

I have numerous sources for the information required. If you like the liddell one that is your personal choice, I will use Strongs for this example as it shows the differences clearer

With all due respect, brother paul, Strong's is not a lexicon. It's a simplistic and limited church dictionary and ought not be used for serious study anymore than you would use an elementary school dictionary for college writing. I posted the link to the Liddell Scott Lexicon because it's sufficient to disprove your point. For most serious Biblical Scholars, the BDAG would be referenced, if not Kittle's, but neither of these have an online presence to post a supportive link.

It did happen, it still can happen, did the disciples not sit with Jesus, listening to him and discussing the things he said. Most of the time yes.

And one might objectively conclude that they didn't "get it". One of those disciples disagreed so strongly with Jesus that he arranged for Jesus' arrest.

Have you encountered any "Mid-Acts Dispensationalists" yet? They will tell you that only Paul knew the "true" gospel. On the other hand, when one limits the scope of Spiritual Truth to only Jesus' teachings, one sees a gospel that cannot be found in any church today.

That is why the world is like it is.

The world is like it is because of the Church. There's no reason to look any further.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I never understood why this is an issue. Jesus made it plain. 'He who believes and is baptized, shall be saved'. Believes and is baptized are both present states of being. Shall be saved is a future state. Thus, one must be baptized. It's a grammatical argument that cannot be gotten around.

Hi Butch5,

And yet the text does not say water baptism, does it. That's an interpretive assumption. One might just as well understand the text to mean fire baptism (by the Holy Spirit, cf. Acts chapter 2).

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

As Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born a second time, born from above, born of the Holy Spirit.

All Men and Woman have their first birth, via the Womb and their birth mother; this we all know.

Born Again 2004,

Again your premise is that Jesus meant physical birth when just saying "born of water". That's a presumption - an interpretation. As Nicodemus knew, ALL people have been born of Water and Spirit (BREATH) at their physical birth or he wouldn't have been confused to ask about climbing into the womb again. Jesus was making a parallel that from a spiritual perspective one also must be born of water (the water baptism of Repentance) AND born of air (the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is foretold in Acts chapter one, manifest in in Acts chapter 2).

The Greek word you read "Spirit" is transliterated as Pneuma and directly means AIR (or breath). It's our root word for pneumatic, meaning powered by air.

Babies who have no spirit (air / breath) at birth are stillborn.

I know you'll remain unconvinced, but this explanation is the only one that doesn't have Nicodemus being an idiot, or Jesus saying obvious things.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I will just offer one insight, though there are many,....why didn't Jesus command Nicodemus to be water baptized?

You made a very good point regarding Jesus and Nicodemus.

Why would anyone presume that Nicodemus hadn't already been baptized by John ?

He was obviously close to the "Movement" of John / Jesus that he arranged a private meeting to find out what the One-Who-Comes-After-John was teaching. While not directly stated, I think it's incredulous to think that Nicodemus had no idea about the Baptism of John. He was even close enough to the Master to attend the dead body.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Oh, come on Butch!
How is one born of the Spirit, if is not by belief!?

One must ask... the text directly says this.

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?​

(Luke 11:13 KJV)​

How is one born of the Spirit, if is not by belief!?

We have scriptural examples that one has "hands laid upon".

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (WATER). And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied (FIRE).​

(Acts 19:5-6 KJV)​

Although, granted, we also have an example that the Baptism of Fire can precede the Baptism of Water.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.​

(Acts 10:44-48 KJV)​

But both are needed. And one is not just some automatic magic wand. Remember, Cornelius asked for Peter (cf. Acts 10:3-6).

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

3. May I politely ask, what Bible have you been reading?

By what stretch of the imagination could that be polite?

Might I politely ask the same thing? I've been using the initial Greek texts for nearly 50 years. (You?)

Politely,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Also, I would submit that the womb is not the water Jesus is speaking of. Nicodemus was already born when he spoke to Jesus. There's no reason to tell him has to be born physically. How many people came to Jesus to be saved who weren't born physically?

I am downright gobsmacked. I've never encountered a Christian before who understood this.

Hopefully yours,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Faith comes by hearing The Word of God.

Faith comes by God speaking to you. (See the Greek .)

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

It sounds like a host of worldly people having a conversation about water Baptism.

Wasn't that the title of the thread ?

 

[Rhema]

To baptize is simply to wash. it is used the same way in washing clothes or the car .

No it isn't, Garee (please see my previous post with a link to the Lexicon giving you the definition).

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

So in considering the options of sprinkle, pour and immersed, all three are correct, so long as, fully wet.

(People sprinkled aren't fully wet.)
.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,

And yet the text does not say water baptism, does it. That's an interpretive assumption. One might just as well understand the text to mean fire baptism (by the Holy Spirit, cf. Acts chapter 2).

Kindly,
Rhema

Hi Rhema,

But, the command wasn't to baptize with fire or the Holy Spirit. Water baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. It was the Father who baptized with fire and the Spirit. I would also submit that being baptize in fire is not a good thing.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Hi Rhema,

But, the command wasn't to baptize with fire or the Holy Spirit. Water baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. It was the Father who baptized with fire and the Spirit. I would also submit that being baptize in fire is not a good thing.

@Rhema and @Butch5
Look, you both consider yourselves to be Christians because the way you were brought up and process that developed your belief system .

I too!

I am not here to deny either of you, some day we all will know the truth soon enough!

In the ,meantime I hope we can all agree to disagree and, at least , Jesus is Lord and Savior!

 

[Br. Bear]

(People sprinkled aren't fully wet.)
.

depends who is holding the hose!!!


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

surely baptism is about repentance?

Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

Yet they seek Me daily, and delight to know My ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of Me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

Behold, ye fast for strife and debate,

and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?


Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and He shall say, Here I am.

If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:

And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Isaiah 58:1-11

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 4:14

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39

A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.
Song of Solomon 4:15-17


Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

Greetings,

surely baptism is about repentance?

Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

Yet they seek Me daily, and delight to know My ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of Me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

Behold, ye fast for strife and debate,

and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?


Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and He shall say, Here I am.

If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:

And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Isaiah 58:1-11

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 4:14

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39

A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.
Song of Solomon 4:15-17


Bless you ....><>

Repentance is definitely first!

If the God of creation , before the foundation, can do all that, surely He knows who and who hasn't genuinely repented.

Then comes the Holy Spirit.

And surely as He has done all that, He doesn't require Man's participation in anything...we are profane...He is Holy!

He is working hard to get us there; it is not easy, but He loves us anyway!

 

[Reba1]

Dogmatic persons dogmaticly pointing out others dogma .. Gotta love it

 

[Born Again 2004]

Dogmatic persons dogmaticly pointing out others dogma .. Gotta love it

Your just too smart!!!

Dogmatic persons dogmaticly pointing out others dogma .. Gotta love it

So maybe I am Dogmatic, am I therefore wrong....you are so smart!