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Baptism - Here we go again

Greetings,

surely baptism is about repentance?
Which kind? ... (of baptism)

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:​
(Matthew 3:11 KJV)​

Water baptism, yes. The text plainly states that water baptism is about repentance. But it's disquieting when the adjectives are left out and one is left to wonder.

Rhema
 
I have 18 lexicon's, in my laptop,
Would that include BDAG and Kittle's ?

As far as your list goes, I don't see anything having a real pedigree, save the Liddell Scott, but ... you can only be as good as your tools.

Thanks,
Rhema
 
I believe the Entire Bible - - but for those who aren't able To be baptized -- for whatever reason -- the cross of Christ Is sufficient.

Aren't able.. maybe. Aren't willing. No. For "whatever reason". No.
 
No it isn't, Garee (please see my previous post with a link to the Lexicon giving you the definition).

Rhema


I have seen it . it means to wash used as a shadow of good things to come having nothing to do with literal water but does in respect to the water of the word as the doctrine of God it fall from above. A little water sprinkled dew or a shower the amount is not important .its what the water represent. .


We have little faith not of our own, unbelievers no faith. Again its not the amount but how it is received by what Power .

When Aarons two sons the first Levi's having a personal desire to join come under the ceremonial baptism they added there own personal touch called strange fire, In selfish false pride their bodies were consumed by fire the priestly garments untouched by the flame . They were worshiping shadows of the unseen work of faith

Again not the amount of water used. But the purpose behind unseen.

Deuteronomy 32 King James Version (KJV)
32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

The doctrine of God or water of the word, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit fell on the ears of the eunuch who, moved by the Holy Spirit replied , here is water; what does hinder me to be baptized. He was baptized as a member of the new priesthood .


Acts 8: 29-36 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?


The baptism of the unseen Holy Spirt empowers us to believe . Water can get a person wet in order to show they desire to become a member and preach the gospel like the eunuch.
 
You can believe half the Bible, or you can believe all the Bible.

Those who believe the verses about baptism don't have a problem with the verses about faith.
Those who only believe the verses about faith, have a problem with the verses about baptism.

Otherwise known as cherry picking.

Be careful of adding cherries .
 
I have seen it . it means to wash used as a shadow of good things to come having nothing to do with literal water but does in respect to the water of the word as the doctrine of God it fall from above.
You're making up your own definitions, Garee, and that's falsely handling any message from God. There's no further reason to discuss anything with someone who abuses the dictionary.

(There should be criminal penalties...)

Rhema
 
Greetings Rhema,

Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.
Isaiah 55:7


Which kind? ... (of baptism)

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:​
(Matthew 3:11 KJV)​

Water baptism, yes. The text plainly states that water baptism is about repentance. But it's disquieting when the adjectives are left out and one is left to wonder.

Rhema

When the Apostle Peter said,

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38

no mention is made of water [or not] but receiving the Holy Ghost is, and the remission of sins, as a 'consequence' of: repent and be baptized ... in the name of Jesus Christ.

It is possible to under-rate repentance and what it 'equals' in the eyes of the LORD [if i may use that expression?]

If we also consider what the 'benefit' is of receiving the Holy Ghost, we might better grasp the importance of not under-rating repentance.

You might find that receiving the Holy Ghost is directly connected to repentance and the transformation manifested in returning to the LORD; howbeit, the Lord Jesus was not able to give or send the Holy Ghost until after the Cross, which takes us also to the baptism that He referred to, being suffering. [ you may find that the 'definition/understanding' of suffering might need refining to purge out the impurities and dross]

Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:30-31

Remembering also the Apostle Peter was responding to a question.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:19

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39
The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. - John 7:46


Bless you ....><>

Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil!

Isaiah 1:16
 
Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil!
Isaiah 1:16
Which one of my evil deeds did you have in mind from which I should cleanse myself?

You might find that receiving the Holy Ghost is directly connected to repentance and the transformation manifested in returning to the LORD;
But this surely doesn't render the Baptism of John unto repentance worthless, no?

no mention is made of water [or not]
It is a pain when the adjectives are left out, but I shall grant that there are some texts wherein "water" is stipulated by context. The Baptism of Transformation by means of the Holy Ghost is typically achieved through the laying on of hands. Has this ever happened to you?

Rhema
 
Greetings,

Would that include BDAG and Kittle's ?

As far as your list goes, I don't see anything having a real pedigree, save the Liddell Scott, but ... you can only be as good as your tools.

Thanks,
Rhema

may i ask... what is so groovy about Liddell Scott?

I must say, your comment about tools is rather daft. A good workman never blames his tools.

My Brother Paul is as good as the Lord Himself has made him and no amount of scholarly reading could have got him so good!

If we were early Church folk, what concordances should we read?
If we were imprisoned for our faith in a country that prohibits any and all Christian literature, what concordance should we read?

Lots of tools, even good ones, never made a masterpiece, never made a craftsman but i have seen magnificence at the hands of ignorance.

When we hear a voice telling us to trun this way or that, which concordance should we refer to?


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings Sue,

Then where does 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 come into the picture.

"Moreover Brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and where in ye stand; by which also ye are saved, ...... how that Christs died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;"

That passage says nothing about including being baptized to be saved.

And then we also have Romans 10: 9-10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Over the years , I've tried to reconcile those verses. Cause It Sounds like a person needs to be baptized, also, for the remission of sins. Yet, we know that the thief on the cross -- the repentent one - was assured by Jesus Christ -- Christ had died 1st and then the one theif. He was assured by Jesus Christ, himself, that that very day -- He would be in Paradise with him. Which indicates that a person on their death bed does not have to be baptized in order to be completely saved.

If a person comes upon the scene of an accident and ends up leading the person to faith in Christ as the person is dying, that person has no chance To be baptized to let any one else know Of the decision that has just been made in their heart.


Repentance is definitely part Of salvation.

you are not the first one who has ever had difficulty trying to reconcile these verses. Most, if honest, would have had much he same sort of difficulty at some stage or another.

Could it be that we overlook that a man who has either no knowledge of Christ or perhaps has some but was brought up churchy but never entered in, would/could only believe after repentance, even if not deliberate, considering the 'believe' that you mention?

Unless totally unaware and having no access to a Bible and no sound person to disciple [big hint there - unless someone makes a disciple?], the majority of men who enter in to the Way would soon discover that Baptism was/is a part of the whole turning/returning... so, while it might be OK to wrestle some passages, if we overlook that that is not the usual case, it all then would come down to that man's obedience and from there also that man's faith or lack thereof.

Regarding the chap on the cross next to our Lord, the Spirit had not yet been given, so the consideration of being baptised in the Holy Ghost as per what is written in letters of the New Testament, doesn't bear any weight. One might say that the saving grace of God is/was His judgement, no ours, regarding all who died prior to the Lord being glorified.

there are 'variables' also.
For instance, it appears that some sought to be baptised and at other times, it was commanded that some were baptised. Acts 10:48.
There is also a seeking that comes into play.
And back to the thief on the cross, note that he was not one who had had the Gospel preached unto him [as far we are aware, from what is written] but he did recognize Jesus as Saviour and i venture to say that he also recognised both his sin and his need to call out/ask of God for that which he perceived to be what Jesus was able to give and that in itself speaks volumes in your looking at reconciling some passages or verses.

Some folks get quite legalistic and miss a lot, others like to bend the rules to suit, but we do have in the Bible a record from the Beginning that is for us to search and i know hat you know that in doing so many precious gems are found and the Way becomes more than a jumble of jigsaw pieces to put together, as the tapestry of God's love for us is revealed in its pages.
Don't be disheartened by anything you're not knowing or by any other(s) not understanding that place from where you presently find yourself to be or those who might have forgotten that they themselves might have been there once, also.
The Apostle Paul, prior to his conversion was an expert in the Law. Mercy, however, did not register with him, much less, grace.


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings,

Sorry again you are incorrect - this is not scriptural - this is not true.
There are no scriptures that teach that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is automatic upon "belief."

have you considered this passage :

And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, and said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said,
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) that word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:30-44

Why do we balk at what Sue @Sue D. suggested?
from the following verse... And they of the circumcision* which believed were astonished,...
*they of the crew who figured to be the god given gift to humanity who alone had the right to claim God' promises through obedience [they thought]...


Bless you ....><>
 
Would that include BDAG and Kittle's ?

As far as your list goes, I don't see anything having a real pedigree, save the Liddell Scott, but ... you can only be as good as your tools.

Thanks,
Rhema
Would that include BDAG and Kittle's ?

As far as your list goes, I don't see anything having a real pedigree, save the Liddell Scott, but ... you can only be as good as your tools.

Thanks,
Rhema


Thank you for these details, BDAG on my wish list. :)
 
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:30-44
None of what you posted teaches that the Holy Spirit automatically infills any person when they "believe" - believe what is the question.
Cornelius was already seeking salvation in God and was ready to yield and submit to the commandments of God - his reward was to receive the Holy Spirit.
" Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God."
" Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
There was no automatic infilling, but a response by God to Cornelius and his household in believing the gospel preached by Peter.
Oh by the way as always the sign or Bible evidence in scripture of baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.
Note also that they were commanded to be baptized in water as the apostles had been - and the disciples of Jesus were all baptized by full immersion as per the custom of the times.
 
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judæa, and there tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Ænōn near Saleim, because many waters were there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
(Weymouth)
John 3:22 After this Jesus and His disciples went into Judaea; and there He made a stay in company with them and baptized.
23 And John too was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there were many pools of water there; and people came and received baptism.
24 (For John was not yet in prison.)
 
Greetings Brother,

Thank you for these details, BDAG on my wish list. :)

"One who gives himself to this task with any devotion at all
cannot escape the feeling thus expressed:
how great is the ocean,
and how tiny the shell with which we dip!"

page xxv A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament, and other early Christian literature;
by Bauer, Walter, 1877-1960 [BDAG]


Bless you ....><>
 
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