Baptism - Here we go again

[Born Again 2004]

Folks who believe they are saved by their works I am not going to list names

Bet they don't look at it that way, but works none the less ,Which God calls filthy rags!

 

[Butch5]

Folks who believe they are saved by their works I am not going to list names

Are you aware that the "works" salvation argument is built on a misunderstanding of Scripture? Those who claim that works play no role in salvation have misunderstood Paul's writings. Upon close examination of Scripture this is quite clear. Paul himself said, 'those who continue in good deeds are seeking immortality'. If works played no role in salvation, then doing them would not be seeking eternal life.

 

[Butch5]

Bet they don't look at it that way, but works none the less ,Which God calls filthy rags!

Actually, God doesn't call one's works filthy rags. If we look at that passage in context it was actually Isaiah, not God who called those deeds filthy rags. The reason he did so was because he was entreating God on Israel's behalf for their rebellion against God. He was asking for mercy and in doing so laid everything prostrate before God saying even their best was filthy rags.

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people. (Isa. 64:4-9 KJV)

We can see from this that it was Isaiah saying that Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags. It wasn't God.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Are you aware that the "works" salvation argument is built on a misunderstanding of Scripture? Those who claim that works play no role in salvation have misunderstood Paul's writings. Upon close examination of Scripture this is quite clear. Paul himself said, 'those who continue in good deeds are seeking immortality'. If works played no role in salvation, then doing them would not be seeking eternal life.

You are saved by the Grace of God and not works.

I have no mis-understanding of scripture or Paul, simple put : God doesn't need or want anything from man with regards to one's salvation!

 

[Born Again 2004]

Actually, God doesn't call one's works filthy rags. If we look at that passage in context it was actually Isaiah, not God who called those deeds filthy rags. The reason he did so was because he was entreating God on Israel's behalf for their rebellion against God. He was asking for mercy and in doing so laid everything prostrate before God saying even their best was filthy rags.

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people. (Isa. 64:4-9 KJV)

We can see from this that it was Isaiah saying that Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags. It wasn't God.

God is the Great I AM, you think for one millisecond He needs anything from man..

You go ahead and believe in any form of works-based salvation! That is your God given right!

 

[Reba1]

Are you aware that the "works" salvation argument is built on a misunderstanding of Scripture? Those who claim that works play no role in salvation have misunderstood Paul's writings. Upon close examination of Scripture this is quite clear. Paul himself said, 'those who continue in good deeds are seeking immortality'. If works played no role in salvation, then doing them would not be seeking eternal life.

We all have opinions some are our own and some we gain from collaboration .

 

[Butch5]

You are saved by the Grace of God and not works.

I have no mis-understanding of scripture or Paul, simple put : God doesn't need or want anything from man with regards to one's salvation!

As I said, the no works teaching is based on a misunderstanding of Paul's writings. When he said they weren't saved by works he was referring to the Mosaic Law. He wasn't saying that a person could do no good deeds or that those deeds played no role in salvation. It was the Reformers who came up with the idea that works play no role in salvation. It's not a Biblical teaching. However, this is getting off topic. If you'd like to discuss it in another thread I'd be more than happy to.

 

[Garee]

I never understood why this is an issue. Jesus made it plain. 'He who believes and is baptized, shall be saved'. Believes and is baptized are both present states of being. Shall be saved is a future state. Thus, one must be baptized. It's a grammatical argument that cannot be gotten around.

Yes if one is not washed with the water of the word, Christ's labor of love or work of His faith then they cannot enter the kingdom of God . . by believing God.

Getting wet is not believing God. . its getting wet . Water like blood two metaphors used in parables to represent the unseen work of God pouring out his Spirt life on corroded flesh and blood in jeopardy of his own Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Yes if one is not washed with the water of the word, Christ's labor of love or work of His faith then they cannot enter the kingdom of God . . by believing God.

Getting wet is not believing God. . its getting wet . Water like blood two metaphors used in parables to represent the unseen work of God pouring out his Spirt life on corroded flesh and blood in jeopardy of his own Spirit.

I'm not really following you here.

 

[Born Again 2004]

As I said, the no works teaching is based on a misunderstanding of Paul's writings. When he said they weren't saved by works he was referring to the Mosaic Law. He wasn't saying that a person could do no good deeds or that those deeds played no role in salvation. It was the Reformers who came up with the idea that works play no role in salvation. It's not a Biblical teaching. However, this is getting off topic. If you'd like to discuss it in another thread I'd be more than happy to.

Ok, you didn't read a word I wrote, look at it this way:

He did EVERYTHING before man came along and even before the foundation of the World.....even defeating Satin...top that!

 

[Butch5]

Ok, you didn't read a word I wrote, look at it this way:

He did EVERYTHING before man came along and even before the foundation of the World.....even defeating Satin...top that!

I wonder then, who was crucified in 30 AD......

 

[Born Again 2004]

I wonder then, who was crucified in 30 AD......

You just don't get it do you.? What in the heck is that supposed to mean?

GOD planned EVERYTHING before time.

That is how powerful he is and you have NOTHING !

 

[Butch5]

You just don't get it do you.? What in the heck is that supposed to mean?

GOD planned EVERYTHING before time.

That is how powerful he is and you have NOTHING !

What you're saying doesn't make sense. You said God did everything before man came along. Now you say it was planned. To plan something is different than carrying out said plan. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the subject we were talking about.

 

[Born Again 2004]

What you're saying doesn't make sense. You said God did everything before man came along. Now you say it was planned. To plan something is different than carrying out said plan. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the subject we were talking about.

Like I said, you obviously don't get it!

 

[Garee]

I'm not really following you here.

To baptize is simply to wash. it is used the same way in washing clothes or the car . It does say how it is washed or cleansed But does in the same way teach as Christ washes his bride the church, the water of His word or called the doctrine of God words that fall from heaven like rain or dew , to indicate inspired from God not earthly of men as doctrines of men.

Deuteronomy 32:1-3 King James Version (KJV) 32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

I would offer a beautiful parables that relates to the washing or baptism . using the portion above to support the doctrine or teaching of the Holy Spirit.

He brings his word separates it from the earth as doctrines of men. Places it upon the dew again to show the direction of inspiration so we can try the spirits to see if they are of men or inspired heavenly . The word of God (Manna )by the Holy Spirit represented as dew.

Numbers 11:9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

That kind of washing or baptizing is used in another parable. . the washing of the feet , representing the power of the gospel .

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

The water and or with the spirit. . . or the water as the spirit . . either way.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 5:25-27 King James Version (KJV) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

In those ways when do do receive our daily bread (mana) literal meaning what is it ? The bread of unfamiliarity. We have a living hope of a continue daily washing by the water of His word.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


H20 baptism the desire having its foundation in the Old testament can be used today to become a member of the priesthood of believers it remains a shadow . it can be performed as a witness to others of as priest after the new order men and woman Jew and gentile

 

[Brother-Paul]

So many in this thread believe they save themselves . We are saved by the shedding of His Blood .

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The Topic is Baptism, not salvation, we are not saved by being baptised with water.

Regarding the shedding of the blood of Christ, I have read none better that the following from Charles Hadden Spurgeon.

Yes, there was a shedding of most precious blood, to which I must forth-with refer you. I shall not tell you now of massacres and murders, nor of rivers of blood of goats and rams. There was a blood-shedding once, which did all other shedding of blood by far outvie; it was a man—a God—that shed his blood at that memorable season. Come and see it. Here is a garden dark and gloomy; the ground is crisp with the cold frost of midnight; between those gloomy olive trees I see a man, I hear him groan out his life in prayer; hearken, angels; hearken, men, and wonder; it is the Saviour groaning out of his soul! Come and see him. Behold his brow! O Heaven! drops of blood are streaming down his face and from his body; every pore is open, and it sweats! but not the sweat of men that toil for bread: it is the sweat of one that toils for heaven—he “sweats great drops of blood!” That is the blood-shedding, without which there is no remission. Follow that man further; they have dragged him with sacrilegious hands from the place of his prayer and his agony, and they have taken him to the hall of Pilate; they seat him in a chair and mock him; a robe of purple is put on his shoulders in mockery; and mark his brow—they have put about it a crown of thorns, and the crimson drops of gore are rushing down his cheeks! But turn aside that purple robe for a moment. His back is bleeding. Tell me, demons, who did this? They lift up the thongs still dripping clots of gore; they scourge and tear his flesh, and make a river of blood to run down his shoulders! That is the shedding of blood, without which there is no remission. Not yet have I done; they hurry him through the streets; they fling him on the ground; they nail his hands and feet to the transverse wood, they hoist it in the air, they dash it into its socket, it is fixed, and there he hangs, the Christ of God. Blood from his head, blood from his hands, blood from his feet! In agony unknown, He bleeds away his life: in terrible throes he exhausts his soul. “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani.” And then see! they pierce his side, and forthwith runneth out blood and water! This is the shedding of blood, sinners and saints, this is the awful shedding of blood, the terrible pouring out of blood, without which, for you, and for the whole human race. There is no remission.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The conversations I have observed in this Thread, it appears noting more but a conversation about "worldly" things, It sounds like a host of worldly people having a conversation about water Baptism. And so Far from being anything about "worshipping" The FATHER or His son Jesus Christ. And the scary thing, is 'No" one even knows the difference, But so much involved in the Manifestation of The FLESH. and Nothing pertaining to GOD or JESUS!

A Bunch of "Wells without Water". "Words without LIFE" There is "No LIVING WATER" no LIVING, No Life, no value, A waste of "Precious Time" No edification whats so ever for the "Sons of "The LIVING GOD" No "Gospel ACCORDING To "JESUS CHRIST" presented to The Lost, The unsaved, No news, why one should be saved and from what?

PS. Who Have Bewitched you and lead you away, straying in the things that does not matter. Season "SAINTS"

It may sound like, as you put it, but if there is a disagreement, it is right for those involved to share scripture regarding their understanding, correct, Yes.

The forum is also called 'Bible Discussions'

The question is, has anyone learnt something through the discussion, to that I would say, yes some, those who are totally open to The Word and the Spirit, without Bias.

Example:

Greek Strong's Number: 907
Greek Word: βαπτίζω
Transliteration: baptizō
Phonetic Pronunciation: bap-tid'-zo
Root: from a derivative of <G911>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:529,92
Part of Speech: verb

English Words used in KJV:
baptize (76)
wash 2
baptist 1
baptized + <G2258> 1
[Total Count: 80]

NOTE: from a derivative of <G911> (bapto); to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N.T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technical) of the ordinance of Christian baptism :- baptist, baptize, wash.

Strong, J. (2020). Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary.


So in considering the options of sprinkle, pour and immersed, all three are correct, so long as, fully wet.

This would rule out font sprinkling or pouring because the procedure adopted does not 'fully wet' the body.

Is a person 'fully wet' when they are immersed, naturally they are, but a person can be 'fully wet' by sprinkling or pouring.

Regarding Philip and the Eunoch, all we know is they went down into the water, not under, not immersed or dunked, scripture does not say clearly what happened, except they went down the bank, into the water. Why did they go down into the water? For the Eunoch to be baptised, baptizo. Which could be sprinkled, poured, immersed so long as fully wet.

It is not the procedure that is the issue here, the most important part is that heart of the person must be right with God and fully understand why they are being baptised, before they choose to be baptised.

The item that is of issue here, in this thread, is the lack of openness to The Word and the meaning of Baptism. I am sure denominational bias is showing, sadly denominational bias crops up in so many discussions.

So I do not agree with your comments brother, I am fully aware of what you are saying, but if these things are not discussed, with an open heart and open mind, misunderstanding and differences will continue.

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

Bet they don't look at it that way, but works none the less ,Which God calls filthy rags!

Isaiah says that in Isaiah 64. But God doesn't say it. In Isaiah 64, Israel is a nation that has turned away from God.

In the New testament, it's different.

Matt 5:20; For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
John 16:8; And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Acts 10:35; But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Rom 6:13; And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:18; And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Rom 10:10; For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 14:17; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
1Cor 15:34; Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
2Cor 9:10; Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness,
Eph 6:14; Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
1Tim 6:11; But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
2Tim 3:16; All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
Heb 12:11; Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Jas 3:18; Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

1Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jn 3:7; Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1Jn 3:10; In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Rev 22:11; He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

 

[Born Again 2004]

Isaiah says that in Isaiah 64. But God doesn't say it. In Isaiah 64, Israel is a nation that has turned away from God.

In the New testament, it's different.

Matt 5:20; For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
John 16:8; And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Acts 10:35; But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Rom 6:13; And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:18; And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Rom 10:10; For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 14:17; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
1Cor 15:34; Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
2Cor 9:10; Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness,
Eph 6:14; Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
1Tim 6:11; But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
2Tim 3:16; All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
Heb 12:11; Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Jas 3:18; Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

1Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jn 3:7; Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1Jn 3:10; In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Rev 22:11; He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

So your saying that Isaiah didn't represent God, he represented himself?

 

[Garee]

Living water or flowing water is used to represent the unseen teachings, the doctrine of God, The teaching that fall down from heaven like rain or shower or the morning dew. .Likewise blood another metaphor used in parables in the same way .In the wilderness using dew to deliver the word of God as manna setting it on Holy ground , represented by dew .

Deuteronomy 32:1-2 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Giving us ears to hear his understanding. The baptism of the water of the word .

In the garden demonstration. . the beginning of the tree day and night demonstration promised in Isaiah 53 . The parable of father and the Son working as one with no aid from others. The father put the disciples asleep three times to indicate salvation is the work of two .Jesus suffered through not receiving help in prayer the help he hoped he would receive. Two performing the work of One. The Father bruising the heel of the powerless Son. Jesus crying out for strength .


Sweat (h20) used to indicate the crying out of the sufferings and the finished work of two . Many have tried to make it literal blood or literal water . Spirit is used in the same way to indicate the unseen work of the Holy Spirit .

Water as sweat as it were drops of blood introduces a parable is in view .

Luke 22:43-45 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,


In that way we are baptized daily by the water of the word our daily bread as mana delivered of the holy ground as dew.