Baptism - Here we go again

[Butch5]

Greetings brother

It isn't the grammar, it is the definition of what baptised is.

Hi Brother Paul,

Ok. As I understand it the Greek word baptizo means to immerse.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,

Ok. As I understand it the Greek word baptizo means to immerse.

Greetings

Greek Strong's Number: 907
Greek Word: βαπτίζω
Transliteration: baptizō
Phonetic Pronunciation: bap-tid'-zo

English Words used in KJV:
baptize (76)
wash 2
baptist 1
baptized + <G2258> 1
[Total Count: 80]

NOTE: from a derivative of <G911> (bapto); to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N.T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technical) of the ordinance of Christian baptism :- baptist, baptize, wash.

The word G911 'bapto' from which G907 'baptizo' is derived means to be fully wet, that does not necessarily mean immersed.

G907 is derived from G911, emphasizing Baptize, the act of baptism. So we could ask, is sprinkling or pouring acceptable, if enough water is sprinkled or poured it must do, considering all options is immersed acceptable, as we know it has to be because one would be fully wet.

When I reply to these things, I do so with an open mind. I can do that because I am not tied to or influenced by a denomination.

If we look at Philip and the Eunuch in Acts we see they went down into the water, went down into the water is not immersed or dunked.

Acts 8:38-39 KJV
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


Went down is...

Greek Strong's Number: 2597
Greek Word: καταβαίνω
Transliteration: katabainō
Phonetic Pronunciation: kat-ab-ah'ee-no
Vine's Words: Come, Came, Descend, Fall, Fallen, Falling, Fell, Get, Got, Gotten, Step

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
come down 41
descend 18
go down 17
fall down 1
step down 1
get down 1
fall 1
vr come down 1
[Total Count: 81]

from <G2596> (kata) and the base of <G939> (basis); to descend (literal or figurative) :- come (get, go, step) down, fall (down).


Come up is.....

Greek Strong's Number: 305
Greek Word: ἀναβαίνω
Transliteration: anabainō
Phonetic Pronunciation: an-ab-ah'ee-no

Vine's Words: Arise, Arose, Arouse, Raise, Rise, Rouse, Climb up, Come, Came, Enter, Entering, Entrance, Grow, Spring

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
go up 37
come up 10
ascend 10
ascend up 8
climb up 2
spring up 2
grow up 2
come 2
enter 2
arise 2
rise up 2
miscellaneous translations 2
vr ascend 1
[Total Count: 82]

from <G303> (ana) and the base of <G939> (basis); to go up (literal or figurative) :- arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

Strong, J. (2020). Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary.

None of these words refers to immersion or dunking. I therefore, with an open mind, accept all options are possible, immersion, sprinkling and pouring, providing a person is 'fully wet'

The person must do what they feel right in their heart, is right with scripture, understanding the symbolic practice and what it refers to. Baptism is not new, it was done in the OT, the only real difference is in the NT it is done with water, in the OT more often than not it was with blood. It is a cleansing ritual note in the Strongs definition above also refers to washing, washing rituals were common in the OT. But also note that the term wash is only a small percentage of the overall definition of the word baptizo.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings

Greek Strong's Number: 907
Greek Word: βαπτίζω
Transliteration: baptizō
Phonetic Pronunciation: bap-tid'-zo

English Words used in KJV:
baptize (76)
wash 2
baptist 1
baptized + <G2258> 1
[Total Count: 80]

NOTE: from a derivative of <G911> (bapto); to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N.T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technical) of the ordinance of Christian baptism :- baptist, baptize, wash.

The word G911 'bapto' from which G907 'baptizo' is derived means to be fully wet, that does not necessarily mean immersed.

G907 is derived from G911, emphasizing Baptize, the act of baptism. So we could ask, is sprinkling or pouring acceptable, if enough water is sprinkled or poured it must do, considering all options is immersed acceptable, as we know it has to be because one would be fully wet.

When I reply to these things, I do so with an open mind. I can do that because I am not tied to or influenced by a denomination.

If we look at Philip and the Eunuch in Acts we see they went down into the water, went down into the water is not immersed or dunked.

Acts 8:38-39 KJV
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


Went down is...

Greek Strong's Number: 2597
Greek Word: καταβαίνω
Transliteration: katabainō
Phonetic Pronunciation: kat-ab-ah'ee-no
Vine's Words: Come, Came, Descend, Fall, Fallen, Falling, Fell, Get, Got, Gotten, Step

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
come down 41
descend 18
go down 17
fall down 1
step down 1
get down 1
fall 1
vr come down 1
[Total Count: 81]

from <G2596> (kata) and the base of <G939> (basis); to descend (literal or figurative) :- come (get, go, step) down, fall (down).


Come up is.....

Greek Strong's Number: 305
Greek Word: ἀναβαίνω
Transliteration: anabainō
Phonetic Pronunciation: an-ab-ah'ee-no

Vine's Words: Arise, Arose, Arouse, Raise, Rise, Rouse, Climb up, Come, Came, Enter, Entering, Entrance, Grow, Spring

Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
go up 37
come up 10
ascend 10
ascend up 8
climb up 2
spring up 2
grow up 2
come 2
enter 2
arise 2
rise up 2
miscellaneous translations 2
vr ascend 1
[Total Count: 82]

from <G303> (ana) and the base of <G939> (basis); to go up (literal or figurative) :- arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

Strong, J. (2020). Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary.

None of these words refers to immersion or dunking. I therefore, with an open mind, accept all options are possible, immersion, sprinkling and pouring, providing a person is 'fully wet'

The person must do what they feel right in their heart, is right with scripture, understanding the symbolic practice and what it refers to. Baptism is not new, it was done in the OT, the only real difference is in the NT it is done with water, in the OT more often than not it was with blood. It is a cleansing ritual note in the Strongs definition above also refers to washing, washing rituals were common in the OT. But also note that the term wash is only a small percentage of the overall definition of the word baptizo.

Hi Brother Paul,

I don't think we really know what exactly took place with the Eunuch. But, from what I've seen in early church history there were other methods used. The important part was the commitment. It was at this point that one received forgiveness of sins.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I never understood why this is an issue. Jesus made it plain. 'He who believes and is baptized, shall be saved'. Believes and is baptized are both present states of being. Shall be saved is a future state. Thus, one must be baptized. It's a grammatical argument that cannot be gotten around.

It is an issue and ,as Brother-Paul has succinctly put it, it lies in the definition of baptism.

As Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born a second time, born from above, born of the Holy Spirit.

All Men and Woman have their first birth, via the Womb and their birth mother; this we all know.

Some Men and Women have their Second birth, being Born Again, being indwelt with Holy Siprit of God the moment they believe in Jesus Christ. That's what Jesus was trying to tell Nicodemus...you must be Born Again.

So, for me, Strict Water Baptists only believe you are born again during the act of Water Baptism, I do not. You can be born again in or out of water.

You CAN be Born Again during the act of Water Baptism, it is a BEAUTIFUL act, I was water baptised once, but it certainly is not a prerequisite to salvation.

I will just offer one insight, though there are many,....why didn't Jesus command Nicodemus to be water baptized?

 

[Sue D.]

@ Born Again 2004 -- you comment "so, for me, Strict Water Baptists only believe you are born again during the act of Water Baptism." I've been a conservative, Independent Baptist all my life. Never heard of being a 'strict water Baptist'.

A person is born again Before they are baptized by immersion. That is being dunked completely under water.

A Baptist does not believe in baptisimal regeneration. Baptism does not save a person.

And we have 1 Corinthians 15 -- "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the 3rd day according to the Scriptures. " believing That is all that is needed 'to be saved'.

You made a very good point regarding Jesus and Nicodemus.

 

[Butch5]

It is an issue and ,as Brother-Paul has succinctly put it, it lies in the definition of baptism.

As Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born a second time, born from above, born of the Holy Spirit.

All Men and Woman have their first birth, via the Womb and their birth mother; this we all know.

Some Men and Women have their Second birth, being Born Again, being indwelt with Holy Siprit of God the moment they believe in Jesus Christ. That's what Jesus was trying to tell Nicodemus...you must be Born Again.

So, for me, Strict Water Baptists only believe you are born again during the act of Water Baptism, I do not. You can be born again in or out of water.

You CAN be Born Again during the act of Water Baptism, it is a BEAUTIFUL act, I was water baptised once, but it certainly is not a prerequisite to salvation.

I will just offer one insight, though there are many,....why didn't Jesus command Nicodemus to be water baptized?

I would submit you're misunderstanding the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. I would also refer back to my former post. Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. It's a sound grammatical argument that cannot be sidestepped. There's just no way around that.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I would submit you're misunderstanding the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. I would also refer back to my former post. Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. It's a sound grammatical argument that cannot be sidestepped. There's just no way around that.

Believes and is baptized by the Holy Spirit, right?

The act of being Baptised by the Holy Spirit is an act of God not man,right?

There is just no way around that, right?

 

[Butch5]

This is pretty clear.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:5 KJV)

This passage doesn't say anything about belief. People say you're born again at belief, yet this passage doesn't even mention belief. It says one must be born of water and the Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Believes and is baptized by the Holy Spirit, right?

The act of being Baptised by the Holy Spirit is an act of God not man,right?

There is just no way around that, right?

Baptized in water. Jesus told the disciples to go an make disciples baptizing them.

 

[Born Again 2004]

This is pretty clear.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:5 KJV)

This passage doesn't say anything about belief. People say you're born again at belief, yet this passage doesn't even mention belief. It says one must be born of water and the Spirit.

Oh, come on Butch!
How is one born of the Spirit, if is not by belief!?
1. WATER, the Mother's Womb. We humans all have that!

2. SPIRIT, the Holy Spirit dwells in you upon belief! Not all humans will have that or even want it!

3. May I politely ask, what Bible have you been reading?

 

[Brother-Paul]

believing That is all that is needed 'to be saved'.

It is not enough Just to believe Sue, even the devil believes.

You must be born again, you washed and spiritually regenerated.

If you are not you are not born again

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother-Paul -- take time to read the 1 Corinthians 15 passage.

 

[Butch5]

Oh, come on Butch!
How is one born of the Spirit, if is not by belief!?
1. WATER, the Mother's Womb. We humans all have that!

2. SPIRIT, the Holy Spirit dwells in you upon belief! Not all humans will have that or even want it!

3. May I politely ask, what Bible have you been reading?

It shows us that belief alone doesn't make one born again. Sure, belief is a prerequisite, but, after that one must be born of water and the Spirit.

Also, I would submit that the womb is not the water Jesus is speaking of. Nicodemus was already born when he spoke to Jesus. There's no reason to tell him has to be born physically. How many people came to Jesus to be saved who weren't born physically?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Oh, come on Butch!
How is one born of the Spirit, if is not by belief!?

Faith comes by hearing The Word of God. Hearing creates belief, if we don't have a searching heart we are Spiritually dead.

The spirit convicts us of our sins, we want forgiveness, we must believe to have Faith, we have to believe something to have faith in it we can't have faith in nothing.

Me thinks

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- take time to read the 1 Corinthians 15 passage.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son, so that who ever BELIEVED on him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

There are many verses that say, believe on the Lord and you will be saved, but in context, step back to John 3, John 3:16 is in the middle, first Nicodemus is told WE MUST be born of So
spirit and water, then the remaining verses up to v21 tell us the situation if we are not born again.

Believing is important, we have to believe to have faith, but if we are not born again, we are not saved.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again. The reason he had to be born again was because his first birth as an Israelite was not sufficient for him to gain access to the Kingdom. As an Israelite Nicodemus had been born of God.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

So, Nicodemus was already born of God. As the seed of Abraham he believed he would inherit the promises God made to Abraham. Jesus was correcting this wrong thinking by telling him he had to be born again. In other words, his first birth as the seed of Abraham wasn't sufficient. That's because the Israelites were mistaken in thinking they were the promised seed. Paul tells us that Jesus was the promised Seed.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

Since the Israelites weren't the promised seed, Nicodemus needed another way to enter the Kingdom. That way was to be born of water and spirit.

 

[PloughBoy]

The conversations I have observed in this Thread, it appears noting more but a conversation about "worldly" things, It sounds like a host of worldly people having a conversation about water Baptism. And so Far from being anything about "worshipping" The FATHER or His son Jesus Christ. And the scary thing, is 'No" one even knows the difference, But so much involved in the Manifestation of The FLESH. and Nothing pertaining to GOD or JESUS!

A Bunch of "Wells without Water". "Words without LIFE" There is "No LIVING WATER" no LIVING, No Life, no value, A waste of "Precious Time" No edification whats so ever for the "Sons of "The LIVING GOD" No "Gospel ACCORDING To "JESUS CHRIST" presented to The Lost, The unsaved, No news, why one should be saved and from what?

PS. Who Have Bewitched you and lead you away, straying in the things that does not matter. Season "SAINTS"

 

[Reba1]

So many in this thread believe they save themselves . We are saved by the shedding of His Blood .

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Born Again 2004]

So many in this thread believe they save themselves . We are saved by the shedding of His Blood .

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Who believes they save themselves?

 

[Reba1]

Folks who believe they are saved by their works I am not going to list names