Baptism - Here we go again

[Brother-Paul]

... and yet, the Bible says it does.

1Pet 3:20; who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Greetings brother, interestiung,

I have just looked at the word used in the stated verse it is Baptisma - Not Baptizo

G908

BAPTISMA

βάπτισμα, ατος, τό (s. βαπτίζω; found only in Christian writers; ApcSed 14:6 [p. 136, 7 and 9 Ja.]; Just., D.; Mel., Fgm. 6 al.)



① the ceremonious use of water for purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship w. God, plunging, dipping, washing, water-rite, baptism


ⓐ of John’s rite (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 44, 13 al. [T. Jesus]) Mt 3:7; 21:25; Mk 11:30; Lk 7:29; 20:4; Ac 1:22; 10:37; 18:25; 19:3; β. μετανοίας
Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3 (in these two passages with εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν [proclaiming] a baptism-with-repentance to receive forgiveness of sins) Ac 13:24; 19:4; GEb 13, 74.



ⓑ of Christian rite β. φέρον ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν B 11:1; β. εἰς τὸν θάνατον Ro 6:4 (s. βαπτίζω 2b). ἓν β. Eph 4:5.
The person baptized is at the same time buried w. Christ Col 2:12 v.l.; 1 Pt 3:21 (s. ἀντίτυπος).
Compared to a soldier’s weapons IPol 6:2. τηρεῖν τὸ β. ἁγνὸν καὶ ἀμίαντον 2 Cl 6:9. Ritual directions D 7:1, 4.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:[SUP][1][/SUP]

Col 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.



② an extraordinary experience akin to an initiatory purification rite, a plunge, a baptism.


ⓐ metaph. of martyrdom
Mk 10:38f; Lk 12:50; Mt 20:22f v.l. (s. GDelling, NovT 2, ’58, 92–115, and βαπτίζω 3c).


ⓑ metaph. of salvation β. ἐν σωτηρίᾳ Ἀχερουσίας λίμνης b. in the saving waters of the Acherusian lake ApcPt Rainer 1, 4f (s. Ἀχερούσιος; EPeterson, Frühkirche, Judentum u. Gnosis ’59, 310ff).—M-M. TW.[SUP][2][/SUP]

BDAG A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).

 

[Sue D.]

Then Why did Jesus Christ need to die on the cross IF baptism is what saves a person.

 

[Brother-Paul]

But even Jesus was baptized by John.

For God’s plan to be perfectly fulfilled, it was necessary for Jesus to be baptised, and for him to be baptised specifically by John who had come to prepare the way for him.

It seems very probable therefore, I think, that Jesus submission to baptism by John, was to give an example of obedience to His followers. Later as we know, Jesus gave the great commission, that all saved souls are to share the Good News to the world and baptise all willing to come to repentance and Christ, in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Reba1]

I'm not exactly sure what this statement means. ??
But even Jesus was baptized by John.

B-A-C said:
The thief on the cross was under the old covenant, if you read the OP you would know this.
People say baptism isn't required, and yet the Bible says it is. Who is right? You or the Bible?

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Rejecting baptism is rejecting the will of God.[/quote]
Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. t

The above is your post , when read in the context of the other verses you posted ,clearly implying Luke 7:30 is speaking of the Baptism of the Father Son and Holy Ghost. When it is speaking of John's baptism.

 

[Reba1]

Then Why did Jesus Christ need to die on the cross IF baptism is what saves a person.

very good question @Sue D.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Then Why did Jesus Christ need to die on the cross IF baptism is what saves a person.

Baptism alone doesn't save a person Sue.

Baptism is a symbol, a ritual, a cleansing, as you know.

Baptism is a symbol of life and death, we die with Christ and are raised to new life.

The Body and Soul that has repented and been baptised is washed of all past sins.

Baptism (from the Greek noun βάπτισμα báptisma) is a Christian rite of admission and adoption, almost invariably with the use of water, into Christianity.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Then Why did Jesus Christ need to die on the cross IF baptism is what saves a person.

Jesus died on the cross, for the sins of the whole world.

With baptism we repent and the water of baptism washed away 'our' past sins

We die with Christ and are raised up to new life in Him.

Baptism alone doesn't save us, but the act is the gateway, the doorway to enter Christianity.

My thoughts sister, good question you asked.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Will be, not immediately, baptism with water is only part. We have to be born again of spirit and water.


Taking the latter part of Mark 16:16 we also have the same message in

John 3:18-21
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[B-A-C]

The thief on the cross was under the old covenant, if you read the OP you would know this.
People say baptism isn't required, and yet the Bible says it is. Who is right? You or the Bible?

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Rejecting baptism is rejecting the will of God.

Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. t

The above is your post , when read in the context of the other verses you posted ,clearly implying Luke 7:30 is speaking of the Baptism of the Father Son and Holy Ghost. When it is speaking of John's baptism.
[/QUOTE]

All of these verses are speaking of John's (water/repentance) baptism.
Mark 16:16; 1Pet 3:21; and Luke 7:30.

 

[B-A-C]

Then Why did Jesus Christ need to die on the cross IF baptism is what saves a person.

As stated numerous times here, baptism alone doesn't save anyone.
But this is a little like asking.. why fill out a job application if I actually have to go to work.

 

[Butch5]

Im not home or near my computer so my replies are limited. I would submit that baptism is part of the overall plan. Christ's death, His resurrection, belief, and baptism are all a part of the overall plan.

I would also mention, as I've seen many references to lexicons, that we not forget that we need to look at how these words were used in the everyday language of the time. I think often Christians tend to define words to fit within certain parameters that may not have actually been present when these words were used by everyday people. Take baptizo for instance, it was an everyday word. In lexicons we see it tied to God, but in the everyday language of the people it wouldn't have been. It was just a normal word that people used.

 

[Rhema]

Greetings,

I am not familiar with this term:



which text may i find it in, please?


Bless you ....><>

The Baptism of Transformation:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.​

(Romans 12:1-2 KJV)​

What renews our mind if not the Holy Spirit?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

(John 14:26 KJV)​

And how does one receive the Holy Spirit with a baptism thereof?

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:​

(Matthew 3:11 KJV)​

I've found one of the foundational errors in all religions, especially that of Islam and Judaism, is that one is supposed to transform one's mind by human will power.

Don't work.

And I keep seeing this verse quoted:

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,​

(Ephesians 5:26 KJV)​

Whereby people think "word" means Bible.

It doesn't.

​

"... the washing of water by the word," - τω (THE) λουτρω (BAPTISM) του (OF THE) υδατος (WATER) εν (IN) ρηματι (RHEMA).

Rhema is not the Bible.


Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

A good workman never blames his tools.

A good workman has good tools.

 

[Reba1]

Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. t

The above is your post , when read in the context of the other verses you posted ,clearly implying Luke 7:30 is speaking of the Baptism of the Father Son and Holy Ghost. When it is speaking of John's baptism.

All of these verses are speaking of John's (water/repentance) baptism.
Mark 16:16; 1Pet 3:21; and Luke 7:30.
[/QUOTE]
total twist like a good liberal twist the meaning to fit. When admitting an over look of the context of Luke 7:30 would have been the godly/ manly thing to do.

 

[Rhema]

If we were early Church folk, what concordances should we read?

A concordance is neither a dictionary nor a lexicon.

If you were early Church folk, you would have been asking your Bishops about things that you didn't understand.

And as early Church folk, (if you could read), the epistles and gospel texts were in your common language. Just think if the New Testament was written in English? There would be no translation bias.

Indeed, by the late 300's, Latin was the lingua franca of the world (as English is today), while Greek had become parochial (i.e. provincial). That's why the Pope had Jerome publish the Vulgate, so that everybody could read the Bible in the common language (Vulgate meaning "common"). During the dark ages as language fractured, the Church then froze the scriptures in Latin so that its meaning would not morph. Did Jerome do a good job? I'd refer you back to the initial Greek texts.

My Brother Paul is as good as the Lord Himself has made him

Why do you believe I was casting aspersions on his character? I was not, and did not.

When we hear a voice telling us to trun this way or that, which concordance should we refer to?

I wouldn't know. I've never trun-ed before. Is that a musical or sports activity?

Schöne Grüße,
Rhema

Bless you ....><>

(Don't say it unless you mean it.)

 

[Waggles]

please don't be offended but reading your posts, you seem a bit confused [although you probably do not realize it] and while i accept that you are zealous in what you believe, your posts indicate a double talk regarding baptism [and receiving the Holy Ghost].

Thankyou for your opinions on the matter - but your opinions are not in accord with scripture.
As for me I believed the full gospel of salvation and then underwent water baptism by full immersion confessing my faith before others.
After seeking to receive the Holy Spirit I was indeed baptized in the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
I immediately received my first miracles and healings that very afternoon and continue to walk on in the Spirit with these signs listed by Jesus following me.
Gifts of discerning, knowledge, faith, healings and miracles I enjoy abundantly.
My Pentecostal faith, doctrine and walk lines up completely in full accord with Acts and the epistles to the Spirit-filled church.

Again which gospel ought people to believe to be the same as the first century church that is the NT??

 

[Rhema]

Thank you for these details, BDAG on my wish list.

Send me a PM, I'll buy it for you.

(ALSO... are you using LOGOS software? If so, do they have a BDAG module?)

The Cambridge Lexicon was just published. (That's on my "wish list," although I'm not looking forward to hefting paper again. Seem prehistoric.)

The Cambridge Greek Lexicon Is Complete After 23 Years

Cambridge University Press published the much-anticipated Cambridge Greek Lexicon on the 22 April 2021.

greekcitytimes.com

Just PM me. (If you wish.)

Rhema

PS: Also looking forward to this -

Book Details - Yale University Press

yalebooks.yale.edu

 

[Rhema]

Oh by the way as always the sign or Bible evidence in scripture of baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.

While I'm sure you have heard this before...:

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?​

(1 Corinthians 12:30 KJV)​

What many may NOT have heard, is that there are two words for "not" in Greek. One word answers the question YES, while the other answers the question NO. In other words, the answer is embedded in the question. A Greek reader is not left to flounder about the answer (e.g. "Are there not 12 hours in the day?" yes there are...)

The above verse answers the questions as no, not all speak with tongues. Just putting it out there, and being way off OP, don't expect an answer, but would welcome the conversation to continue in a different thread.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Brother-Paul]

Send me a PM, I'll buy it for you.

(ALSO... are you using LOGOS software? If so, do they have a BDAG module?)

You are very kind, may the good Lord truly bless you.

I was a WordSearch user and moved to Logos when they l
Purchased the company. Everything moved over but was costly as I purchases the silver edition of the software.

Having many lexicons I didn't see the need for another, until words of wisdom was given me, I checked the reviews all excellent, I had to put it on my wish list, should have been on my prayer list, but today I have purchased it.

I thank you for your kind and generous offer my friend, I mean that from my heart.

Having moved to Logos, I have a lot to learn. It is powerful software for sure, the frustration is wanting to study but having to learn the software. God's speed I will get there.

You will find I have placed two posts already with data from the BDAG LEXICON

Bless you brother

Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father

 

[Rhema]

would tears suffice?


Bless you ....><>

Nah...I'm getting the whole vibe for using a hose... ALL the members of the church and the guy's family and the elders could head out back and get what, 20, 30 hoses and just douse the guy.

(Maybe seven hoses, shared.)

That would bring sheer joy back to the event. Then we could all have a picnic afterwards (think, "breaking bread").

Instead of Baptists, or Shakers, or Methodists, we could be called Hosers.