Baptism - Here we go again

[Waggles]

Why do we balk at what Sue @Sue D. suggested?

Because scripture teaches otherwise
Luke 11:13 If ye therefore, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Acts 19:5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
1Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift in thee, which was given thee through prophecy, with laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;

So then which gospel ought a person to believe in order to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and fulfill scripture?

 

[Waggles]

Isaiah 43:1 But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.

 

[Waggles]

Water water water so many scriptures to do with water - it begins with water and ends with water -
Genesis 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
1:6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

None of what you posted teaches that the Holy Spirit automatically infills any person when they "believe" - believe what is the question.
Cornelius was already seeking salvation in God and was ready to yield and submit to the commandments of God - his reward was to receive the Holy Spirit.
" Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God."
" Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
There was no automatic infilling, but a response by God to Cornelius and his household in believing the gospel preached by Peter.
Oh by the way as always the sign or Bible evidence in scripture of baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.
Note also that they were commanded to be baptized in water as the apostles had been - and the disciples of Jesus were all baptized by full immersion as per the custom of the times.

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?


Bless you ....><>

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but....


ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Acts 11:15-17

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

So then which gospel ought a person to believe in order to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and fulfill scripture?

or is it in order to be saved?


Bless you....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again @Waggles

please don't be offended but reading your posts, you seem a bit confused [although you probably do not realize it] and while i accept that you are zealous in what you believe, your posts indicate a double talk regarding baptism [and receiving the Holy Ghost].

Perhaps it might be worthwhile to consider what baptism is?

It is good to be keen but sometimes any of us can not see what is written but we see what we are looking for, and due to the kindness of God in Jesus Christ the Lord, He has given us all a place in the Body, as fellow helpers, so to speak... and humbly, that is what i am extending to you.

One of the biggest problems any man who studies confronts, is those things 'pre-loaded' in his examination. Somehow we need to be un-doctrinated but without lacking the Doctrine of God, which, is for some, the reason for their study... to fine tune their understanding of what they believe in contrast to Who they believe.

Another aspect we can not realise is that when we read the events in the Early Church as given in the New Testament, we can miss any chronology, miss the whole awakening that even Apostles went through. That being said, it is quite realistic to consider the 'place' the Apostle Peter was at in Acts 10 and Cornelius.

Also we can forget to put into the burner, little things, like those Gentiles did not either know the New Testament nor did they know Hebrew (unless they had somehow manged to learn it from a naughty Jew) but they did know how to speak their language that was not Hebrew. They did however exalt the LORD God after the Holy Ghost fell on them, which would have been quite an amazing thing for those of the circumcision, as worship and praise of the LORD was only for them, [remember that the idea of Gentiles doing such things was unheard of - as the passage alludes to]
Again, we need to consider many aspects [these are but a few] and do so without using any doctrinal glasses.

I am no expert but i do perceive, Brother, neither are you.

perhaps we should ask, what is baptism?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

HOSING !!! Yet another way to get baptized !!

Dunkers and hosers and splashers... oh my!

(Love it)
Rhema

would tears suffice?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes, it does.

As you know, Baptism is βαπτίζω (G907)

Let's use a real Lexicon:

BAPTISE

βαπτίζω—In Gk. lit. gener. G907 in a general sense, see 3 options below
to put or go under water in a variety of senses, also fig., e.g. ‘soak’ Pla., Symp. 176b in wine) in our lit. only in ritual or ceremonial sense

① wash ceremonially for purpose of purification, wash, purify, of a broad range of repeated ritual washing rooted in Israelite tradition (cp. Just., D. 46, 2)

Cleaning Rituals, Ceremonial washing

Mk 7:4; 4
And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Luke 11:38; 38
And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

The Law of Purification in
Mark 7:1–23:


② to use water in a rite for purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship w. God, plunge, dip, wash, baptize.
The transliteration ‘baptize’ signifies the ceremonial character that NT narratives accord such cleansing, but the need of qualifying statements or contextual coloring in the documents indicates that the term β. was not nearly so technical as the transliteration suggests.


ⓐ of dedicatory cleansing associated w. the ministry of John the Baptist

baptism in the name of Jesus, who was no longer the ‘coming one’, but the arrived ‘Lord’)?


ⓑ of cleansing performed by Jesus John 3:22, John 3:26; John 4:1; difft. John 4:2 with disclaimer of baptismal activity by Jesus personally.


ⓒ of the Christian sacrament of initiation after Jesus’ death
(freq. pass.; s. above 2a; Iren. 3, 12, 9 [Harv. II 63, 3]) Mark 16:16; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12f, Acts 8:36, Acts 8:38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:47; Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; Acts 22:16; 1 Cor 1:14–17; D 7
(where baptism by pouring is allowed in cases of necessity);

③ to cause someone to have an extraordinary experience akin to an initiatory water-rite, to plunge, baptize.
Cp. ‘take the plunge’ and s. OED ‘Plunge’ II
ⓐ typologically of Israel’s passage through the Red Sea εἰς τὸν Μωϋσῆν ἐβαπτίσαντο they got themselves plunged/ baptized for Moses, thereby affirming his leadership 1 Cor 10:2 v.l. (if the pass. ἐβαπτίσθησαν is to be read with N. the point remains the same; but the mid. form puts the onus, as indicated by the context, on the Israelites).


Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
BDAG A Greek-English lexicon

 

[Reba1]

In reading this thread i am reminded of the kosher house wife who has 2 kitchens in the house . In her view she is keeping the law. We are saved by Grace . If baptism saves us then our actions (works) are equal to the Cross to His Grace, His Blood. YET i believe the saved should be baptized.

Have stated in this forum many times, my background is Pentecostal my father and his father both pastors, married to Pentecostal women. Not that, that gives me any credence just background to this very short story. Some where in the early 70s there was an awaking , some may corollate it to the times of David Wilkerson . Back to my story In mom's Bible is a note one of a zillion.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Mom's note Not giving heed to Pentecostal fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

 

[Brother-Paul]

If baptism saves us then our actions (works) are equal to the Cross to His Grace, His Blood. YET i believe the saved should be baptized.

Jesus gave the Great Commission telling us to baptise, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. It was a command.

But, baptism doesn't save us.

 

[B-A-C]

But, baptism doesn't save us.

... and yet, the Bible says it does.

1Pet 3:20; who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Rom 6:3; Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4; Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5; For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

It appears if you haven't been baptized, you aren't buried with Him (the old self). If you aren't united with Him in the likeness of His death, you won't united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.

Acts 2:38; Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, if you aren't baptized .. "for the forgiveness of your sins", are they forgiven?

John 3:5; Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Some people say being born of water is simply natural birth. But if that is the case... then stillborn babies, and aborted infants "cannot enter the kingdom of God", as they were never born of water.

 

[B-A-C]

But, baptism doesn't save us.

I would agree that simply being baptized in itself, doesn't save anyone.

If baptism saves us then our actions (works) are equal to the Cross to His Grace,

Works are often confused with what we do.
If I hire someone to... well whatever, cut logs, dig rocks, carry water... it doesn't really matter too much, and I say in order to work here.. you can't lie, cheat, steal, kill, or moonlight.
Some people seem to think that not lying or not stealing is a work. But no, that's just the rules you're expected to follow. Digging rocks, cutting wood, and carrying water is the work.

Luke 17:7; “Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’?
Luke 17:8; “But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’?
Luke 17:9; “He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

Obeying the rules is "that which we ought to have done".

 

[Reba1]

I would agree that simply being baptized in itself, doesn't save anyone.



Works are often confused with what we do.
If I hire someone to... well whatever, cut logs, dig rocks, carry water... it doesn't really matter too much, and I say in order to work here.. you can't lie, cheat, steal, kill, or moonlight.
Some people seem to think that not lying or not stealing is a work. But no, that's just the rules you're expected to follow. Digging rocks, cutting wood, and carrying water is the work.

Luke 17:7; “Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’?
Luke 17:8; “But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’?
Luke 17:9; “He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

Obeying the rules is "that which we ought to have done".

You made the implication John's Baptism was the Lords trying to prove yourself to be correct.

The thief on the cross was under the old covenant, if you read the OP you would know this.
People say baptism isn't required, and yet the Bible says it is. Who is right? You or the Bible?

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Rejecting baptism is rejecting the will of God.

 

[Reba1]

You made the implication John's Baptism was the Lords trying to prove yourself to be correct.

The thief on the cross was under the old covenant, if you read the OP you would know this.
People say baptism isn't required, and yet the Bible says it is. Who is right? You or the Bible?

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Rejecting baptism is rejecting the will of God.

 

[Butch5]

[QUOTE="Reba1, post: 395911, member:]
In reading this thread i am reminded of the kosher house wife who has 2 kitchens in the house . In her view she is keeping the law. We are saved by Grace . If baptism saves us then our actions (works) are equal to the Cross to His Grace, His Blood. YET i believe the saved should be baptized.

Have stated in this forum many times, my background is Pentecostal my father and his father both pastors, married to Pentecostal women. Not that, that gives me any credence just background to this very short story. Some where in the early 70s there was an awaking , some may corollate it to the times of David Wilkerson . Back to my story In mom's Bible is a note one of a zillion.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Mom's note Not giving heed to Pentecostal fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
[/QUOTE]
Hi Reba,

Peter states plainly that baptism saves

 

[Brother-Paul]

Works are often confused with what we do.

I totally agree brother. I find it mind boggling when some say, accepting God's free gift of salvation is work, because we have to do something to accept it. To me that is crazy.

God holds out the free gift of salvation, it is not forced on us we have a choice, accept it or reject it. John 3:1-21 sums up the consequences well I think.

 

[Reba1]

Peter states plainly that baptism saves

IF you are referring water emersion do you realize you are saying our @Brother-Paul is not saved.

 

[Brother-Paul]

IF you are referring water emersion do you realize you are saying our @Brother-Paul is not saved.

Bless you

Suggested read Post 248 above from BDAG Lexicon.

(where baptism by pouring is allowed in cases of necessity)

That us certainly not immersed, dunked, but us fully wet

I need to look into this statement a bit more.

 

[B-A-C]

You made the implication John's Baptism was the Lords trying to prove yourself to be correct.

I'm not exactly sure what this statement means. ??
But even Jesus was baptized by John.

 

[Butch5]

IF you are referring water emersion do you realize you are saying our @Brother-Paul is not saved.

I didn't say anything other than what Peter said. That is that baptism saves.