Baptism - Here we go again

[Born Again 2004]

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7; Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Born of water, the womb, your mother, your physical birth , first birth.

Born of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit (God) your Spiritual Birth, second birth, being "Born Again"!

 

[Reba1]

What is with this constant finding of alternatives to the clear principles of scripture???

Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
1Corinthians15:4 that [Jesus] was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

John 12:24 Truly, truly, I [Jesus] say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
So then let us all be doers of the Word of God and not lawyers quibbling over loopholes.

Waggles what does the word buried mean? Were you in a hole in the ground? I was 'buried' in the American river in central California. I was not buried it was symbolic of death to the old me and resurrection to new life in Christ.

Again what does the word buried mean to your understanding . To me the word buried means placed in a hole i the ground... Christ died He was put a sepulchre . He was resurrected Praise the Lord ... . I completely understand the symbolism of being buried with Him .. I do believe semantics is in play here. and maybe even a slightly different use of the English language.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Born of water, the womb, your mother, your physical birth , first birth.

Born of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit (God) your Spiritual Birth, second birth, being "Born Again"!

Bingo!!

 

[Rhema]

Whatever happened to the days people could sit together and talk about things, yes even scripture.

I'm not sure there has ever been such a golden age. It certainly has not been my experience over 60 years.

The kind of discussion that you seek requires a great deal of grace and graciousness that must be learned and then practiced. My early teen years in an IFCA affiliate gives witness to the acrostic I Fight Catholics Anywhere. It's unfortunate that while civil discourse must be learned, it just isn't taught, while the hate is - even a hate on behalf of GOD... (there's a reason, but I don't wish to digress off point).

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

When was the last or first time you walked through a hospital praying for folks as they got up and walked out.

For me, it's been a couple of years, but that's not quite the way the gifts of healing works. God does the healing, but your challenge is worded as if we do. I was healed in a Presbyterian church and it rattled the pastor who was doing the praying. A few weeks later I did visit (yet another) Pentecostal church, and was quite stunned to hear that preacher say, "Don't you let any preacher or evangelist or pastor tell you you're healed. GOD will tell you when you're healed." And for me, that's how it happened. God does the healing, and ultimately God decides who and how that healing will manifest.

But I'm rather off point right now, and my only comment here was to say that one never gets the right answer if one wrongly frames the premise.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

That kind of idea. . "I did it it proves it" would represent what the bible calls strange fire (judgement) or someone's personal touch added to the word .

I'm tempted to ask where you got that idea about "strange fire" from ... but it can wait. And as a rhetorical consideration... these verses seem to conflict with your views.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

(Acts 2:22 KJV)​

​

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.​

(John 10:37-38 KJV)​

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Most folks when they say buried they think a 6 foot hole in the ground.

Well then, might you think that to be the fault of the translation that used the word buried? After all, we ought to be taking our audience into account when we write.

Just to say, I am VERY familiar with the burial practices of first century Jews... ossuaries and all.

But one can only deal with the words you type. You said buried. Period. Not, tossed into a hole with dirt shoveled over top. Perhaps that would have helped to clarify things.

So, I appreciate your clarification.

Let me know when you have judged me as a non believer ...

I've found non-believers to be diligent with regards to accuracy, so I doubt I would judge you a non-believer. In all honesty, I just don't know quite what you believe yet.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

There are no examples in Scripture of sprinkling with children or anyone else.

But there are examples of children being baptized.

And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.​

(Acts 16:14-15 KJV)​

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

That would be a works-based salvation -- Ephesians 2:8-9 "not of works, lest any man should boast" For by grace you are saved by faith and not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.'

Isn't it interesting that Martin Luther purposefully omitted a word for his translation of this verse? (And the KJV as well?)

Might the real wording strike you as having a different meaning?

For by grace are ye saved through THE faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV+)​

I've run into at least five different and active definitions of the word "faith". Protestants leave out the word "THE" from their translation and then add in the invisible word "your" to read ... For by grace are ye saved through your faith; ...

The more one studies, the more one finds that DOGMATIC CERTITUDE crumbles.

Respectfully yours,
Rhema

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:​

(Luke 6:46-47 KJV)​

 

[Rhema]

Born of water, the womb, your mother, your physical birth , first birth.

Born of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit (God) your Spiritual Birth, second birth, being "Born Again"!

Hi Born Again 2004,

I know that's a very common interpretation, but I do not find it credible. "Born of water" is a referent to water baptism - a baptism of repentance taught both by John and Jesus. "Born of the Spirit" is a referent to fire baptism - a baptism of the Holy Spirit as described in Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19, etc.

But since every living person gets born, it would be redundant and even somewhat petty for Jesus to be talking about the common physical birth of a baby. In saying Born of water, Jesus didn't mean common physical birth. That's what got Nicodemus confused. There's a parallel here. Think through this with me.... Every living baby is born of water and spirit, where the word spirit means BREATH. If a newborn doesn't breath it's stillborn - dead. Allow me to clarify...

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (SPIRIT) of life; and man became a living soul.​

(Genesis 2:7 KJV)​

Physical birth entails two elements - the waters of birth, and the spirit (breath) of breathing.
Jesus used these two elements of physical birth as a metaphor - the waters of birth to be contrasted with the waters of baptism for repentance, and the newborn's BREATH (spirit) to be contrasted with being born of the spirit - the flames of fire baptism for empowerment :

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.​

(Acts 1:5 KJV)​

​

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

(Acts 1:8 KJV)​

My apologies if my premise isn't crystal clear. It's a bit late, and I might need to polish up my presentation on this matter.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Born Again 2004]

Hi Born Again 2004,

I know that's a very common interpretation, but I do not find it credible. "Born of water" is a referent to water baptism - a baptism of repentance taught both by John and Jesus. "Born of the Spirit" is a referent to fire baptism - a baptism of the Holy Spirit as described in Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19, etc.

But since every living person gets born, it would be redundant and even somewhat petty for Jesus to be talking about the common physical birth of a baby. In saying Born of water, Jesus didn't mean common physical birth. That's what got Nicodemus confused. There's a parallel here. Think through this with me.... Every living baby is born of water and spirit, where the word spirit means BREATH. If a newborn doesn't breath it's stillborn - dead. Allow me to clarify...

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (SPIRIT) of life; and man became a living soul.​

(Genesis 2:7 KJV)​

Physical birth entails two elements - the waters of birth, and the spirit (breath) of breathing.
Jesus used these two elements of physical birth as a metaphor - the waters of birth to be contrasted with the waters of baptism for repentance, and the newborn's BREATH (spirit) to be contrasted with being born of the spirit - the flames of fire baptism for empowerment :

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.​

(Acts 1:5 KJV)​

​

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

(Acts 1:8 KJV)​

My apologies if my premise isn't crystal clear. It's a bit late, and I might need to polish up my presentation on this matter.

Thanks,
Rhema

Hi Born Again 2004,

I know that's a very common interpretation, but I do not find it credible. "Born of water" is a referent to water baptism - a baptism of repentance taught both by John and Jesus. "Born of the Spirit" is a referent to fire baptism - a baptism of the Holy Spirit as described in Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19, etc.

But since every living person gets born, it would be redundant and even somewhat petty for Jesus to be talking about the common physical birth of a baby. In saying Born of water, Jesus didn't mean common physical birth. That's what got Nicodemus confused. There's a parallel here. Think through this with me.... Every living baby is born of water and spirit, where the word spirit means BREATH. If a newborn doesn't breath it's stillborn - dead. Allow me to clarify...

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (SPIRIT) of life; and man became a living soul.​

(Genesis 2:7 KJV)​

Physical birth entails two elements - the waters of birth, and the spirit (breath) of breathing.
Jesus used these two elements of physical birth as a metaphor - the waters of birth to be contrasted with the waters of baptism for repentance, and the newborn's BREATH (spirit) to be contrasted with being born of the spirit - the flames of fire baptism for empowerment :

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.​

(Acts 1:5 KJV)​

​

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

(Acts 1:8 KJV)​

My apologies if my premise isn't crystal clear. It's a bit late, and I might need to polish up my presentation on this matter.

Thanks,
Rhema

Sure, it is a "fundamental" difference about a portion of the Gospel that we have, all be it, a VERY important one.

You believe in "water baptism" only as the road to salvation; I don't.

Though one CAN be " Born Again" in the water ( water baptism) , it is not a requirement.

The Holy Spirit has no limitations, it saves in or out of the water!

It might seem petty to you but it is the truth to me !!!

 

[Reba1]

Reba1 said:
When was the last or first time you walked through a hospital praying for folks as they got up and walked out.

For me, it's been a couple of years, but that's not quite the way the gifts of healing works. God does the healing, but your challenge is worded as if we do. I was healed in a Presbyterian church and it rattled the pastor who was doing the praying. A few weeks later I did visit (yet another) Pentecostal church, and was quite stunned to hear that preacher say, "Don't you let any preacher or evangelist or pastor tell you you're healed. GOD will tell you when you're healed." And for me, that's how it happened. God does the healing, and ultimately God decides who and how that healing will manifest.

But I'm rather off point right now, and my only comment here was to say that one never gets the right answer if one wrongly frames the premise.

God bless,
Rhema

But one can only deal with the words you type. You said buried. Period. Not, tossed into a hole with dirt shoveled over top. Perhaps that would have helped to clarify things.

Dealing with the words you typed . Please what is the name and place of the hospital in your reply to...".When was the last or first time you walked through a hospital praying for folks as they got up and walked out." It was a couple years ago but most folks would, well, remember such a blessing .

Edited to add:
@Rhema you are an entertaining read

 

[Rhema]

You believe in "water baptism" only as the road to salvation; I don't.

Shame on you. Utter shame. Don't put words in my mouth. You have no idea what I believe. I'd explain, but having crapped yourself with such a ridiculous reply, it isn't worth the time.

It might seem petty to you but it is the truth to me !!!

All kinds of people believe all kinds of nutty things as truth.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema you are an entertaining read

Mock all you like. It's not from the Spirit of God.

Rhema

 

[Reba1]

Mock all you like. It's not from the Spirit of God.

Rhema

Not intended to mock . I find your posting interesting read.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Shame on you. Utter shame. Don't put words in my mouth. You have no idea what I believe. I'd explain, but having crapped yourself with such a ridiculous reply, it isn't worth the time.

All kinds of people believe all kinds of nutty things as truth.

Rhema

So, there is an impasse between us, we will just have to agree to disagree and please, less profane from now on!

 

[Waggles]

 

[Born Again 2004]

 

[Sue D.]

Baptism is an important subject. Is baptism by immersion necessary for salvation or isn't it. If a person is prohibited From baptism for some reason -- are they Really saved or aren't they. The cross of calvary -- the shed blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Baptism is an important subject. Is baptism by immersion necessary for salvation or isn't it. If a person is prohibited From baptism for some reason -- are they Really saved or aren't they. The cross of calvary -- the shed blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient.

God does not require or want anything from man, Mans efforts are like filthy rags to God.
He is fully capable of salvation of man on His own!!!