Baptism - Here we go again

[Sue D.]

Possible ??

Wouldn't it be best to find out what they actually preach before putting words into the mouth of others? It's only respectful. And it shouldn't take much time at all to grasp the RCC's doctrine of Soteriology.

That said, I'll leave you with this scripture verse:

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB)​

Respectfully yours,
Rhema

Matthew 4:17 NKJ "From that time Jesus began to preach and to say "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

I'm very aware of the the RCC teaches. I was using the word "possible" to be nice. The RCC is full of non-Biblical teaching.

Okay -- the RCC doctrine of Soteriology = the doctrine of salvation. How Christ's death secures salvation for those who believe. Let's talk about that.

 

[Born Again 2004]

YES it does matter.
what we do must be acceptable to God not to ourselves.
Scripture and church history teach us clearly that water baptism by full immersion confessing one's faith in Jesus is the only way - one baptism
Sprinkling is invalid as one is not buried with Christ and cannot comply with Romans 6, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12
Babies of course have no need to repent nor are able to - so again baptism is to do with repentance and obedience to the gospel.

Yes it does matter to God!!!

But, being Baptised with the Holy Spirit in OR out of the water doesn't matter as long as you are genuinely Baptised by God!!!!!!

 

[B-A-C]

But, being Baptised with the Holy Spirit in OR out of the water doesn't matter as long as you are genuinely Baptised by God!!!!!!

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7; Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

 

[Brother-Paul]

I am not a Catholic, never could be, I agree with Sue regarding their errors they choose not to recognise, but that is not the topic

But in accordance with scripture, Baptism DOES NOT have to be by full immersion.

I included details and scripture in post 55

 

[Sue D.]

Baptism is supposed to be sybolizing what we believe -- that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died on the cross, was buried and rose again the 3rd day. That we have already believed That in our heart.

When a person is coming up out of the water -- it means that they have been down under the water.

Did Jesus Christ actually get buried completely ? He was placed in a tomb as was customary in that day. So -- He was 'buried' in that tomb. And He rose again bodily.

Baptism by immersion is Very important. In what it's symbolizing.

And, yes, I looked back at your post 55. Sounds like you're trying to find loop-holes in what is meant by 'coming up out of the water.' And, while it Is true that a person Can walk out in the water -- getting into the deep end -- and turn around and walk back out -- without ever having gone Under the water. A person is in danger of Sounding like they are discrediting what actually Did happen with Jesus Christ.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Baptism is supposed to be sybolizing what we believe -- that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died on the cross, was buried and rose again the 3rd day. That we have already believed That in our heart.

When a person is coming up out of the water -- it means that they have been down under the water.

Did Jesus Christ actually get buried completely ? He was placed in a tomb as was customary in that day. So -- He was 'buried' in that tomb. And He rose again bodily.

Baptism by immersion is Very important. In what it's symbolizing.

And, yes, I looked back at your post 55. Sounds like you're trying to find loop-holes in what is meant by 'coming up out of the water.' And, while it Is true that a person Can walk out in the water -- getting into the deep end -- and turn around and walk back out -- without ever having gone Under the water. A person is in danger of Sounding like they are discrediting what actually Did happen with Jesus Christ.

I am not trying to find loop hole Sue, we don't do such things. The arguements, sprinkle, pour, dip, immerse are at least 1700 years old.

The situation with Philip and the Eunoch is clear they went down into the water, if I could walk I could go down into the water. but that is not going down under the water, as in dunked or immersed.

The idea of immersion came mainly after the reformation. From AD 300 approximately to this side of the reformation, the 1200 years or so in the middle was mainly sprinkle or pour. But as we know this was the RCC era, you know I do not agree with so many things with the RCC, so my comments are not RCC Bias.

Baptism is a ritual, a washing, a cleaning, which comes from the OT, Baptism and ritual cleansing was done in the OT, and as Jesus was a Jew, he always brought the OT into what we call the NT, if practices were wrong he said so, he never condemned OT Baptism but gave an example with water. Now OT Baptism, ritual cleansing was mainly done with blood, and it was sprinkled, including the mercy seat.

The fact is that Baptism by sprinkling, pouring, washing or immersion are all correct in God's eyes, God knows the heart Sue.

There are many items in scripture that are debatable as to the method meant, but as we know God knows our heart. So if a person wants full immersion, go ahead with the knowledge of why your choose to be baptised, in the same way if your want a pour method, go ahead in the knowledge of why you choose to be baptised.

I feel anyone who digs their heels in to say immersion is the only correct method is denominational bias.

In His love.

 

[Waggles]

I feel anyone who digs their heels in to say immersion is the only correct method is denominational bias.

NO not at all - they believe scripture and are obedient to scripture.
You are justifying other alternatives to scripture.

 

[Reba1]

Jesus was not buried. He was entombed. As @Sue D. said . He was wrapped in linen and spices

Joh 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Joh 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
Joh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

I found this passage ,one of many, interesting ..
Lev 16:32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
Lev 16:33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.

 

[Reba1]

NO not at all - they believe scripture and are obedient to scripture.
You are justifying other alternatives to scripture.

Which Scripture passage says baptism is only full immersion?

 

[Brother-Paul]

NO not at all - they believe scripture and are obedient to scripture.
You are justifying other alternatives to scripture.

Not at all, those who are denominationay bias they cannot see, or do not want to see, that The Word offers more than one alternative in this any many other scriptures .

Many say they are open to what the scriptures says, but they are not. They won't accept scripture says something that has more than one option, they think their thinking, their way is right.

They are blinkered from The Truth, by their own ideas. How can anyone be open to the Holy Spirit if their minds are already made up?

They believe the scriptures they want to believe, the ones that tell them what they think, they therefore close their eyes and ears to any other scriptural alternative.

Sad my friend, very sad

 

[Rhema]

May I ask, which view do you have?

I'm not sure how one could make a case that these " certain disciples" weren't saved.

The discussion is usually based on Acts 19:1-7 KJV

I omitted the last two verses because I had wanted to focus on the Baptism of John within a soteriological dimension and not clutter up the question.
(Which, I notice, you didn't answer.)

Rhema

Another strongly debated piece of scripture that rumbles on to this day.

What portion do you see as debatable?

 

[Rhema]

Okay -- the RCC doctrine of Soteriology = the doctrine of salvation. How Christ's death secures salvation for those who believe. Let's talk about that.

It would be a bit off point, so to continue that discussion past this post would (I think) require another thread. But the RCC believes as you, that Christ secures salvation for those who believe, although for them, His death makes up for what you can't. You would still need to do your part, the part that God knows you can do. No 'greasy grace' shirking there, ma'am.

Rhema

 

[Waggles]

they therefore close their eyes and ears to any other scriptural alternative.

You may be into scriptural alternatives but God is not.

 

[Rhema]

Jesus was not buried.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

(1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV)​

Reba1,
The scripture I quoted directly states that Jesus was buried, so I'm a bit confused how you can post your declarations with such CERTAINTY when a simple perusal of the New Testament proves that you're completely wrong. I mean, you do read the New Testament, yes? Might you not be a believer? (I'll admit I've not read many of your posts to know for certain.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Doesn’t the word baptize mean “to dip or immerse,” ...

Yes, it does.

As you know, Baptism is βαπτίζω (G907)

Let's use a real Lexicon:
LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for G907

Hence the intractable full immersion viewpoints.

and isn’t it true that the word never has any other meaning

No. It isn't. (See above link to the lexicon.)

The word baptize does not mean “immerse”!

Well it doesn't mean to splash around in water. See the Lexical entry above. Note the section about Baptizo meaning to get soaked. It's not like there's ANY indication in the NT that someone used a pot or pitcher to pour water over your head, and as mentioned, John tB wasn't standing there splashing you with water either.

Maybe you'll find the Middle Liddell to be more clear - (LINK) - to dip in or under water.

baptizo does not refer to a mode, but to a process and an effect.

Where'd ya come with that one?

Hebrews 9:10 speaks of “various baptisms”

Wrong word. That one's βαπτισμός (G909) not G907.

Vocabulary matters,
Rhema

 

[Reba1]

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

(1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV)​

Reba1,
The scripture I quoted directly states that Jesus was buried, so I'm a bit confused how you can post your declarations with such CERTAINTY when a simple perusal of the New Testament proves that you're completely wrong. I mean, you do read the New Testament, yes? Might you not be a believer? (I'll admit I've not read many of your posts to know for certain.)

Rhema

For those who want to find fault .. " he was buried,G2290 "
thap'-to
A primary verb; to celebrate funeral rites, that is, inter: - bury.

Most folks when they say buried they think a 6 foot hole in the ground.

mnay-mi'-on
From G3420; a remembrance, that is, cenotaph (place of interment): - grave, sepulchre, tomb.

Joh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

Mar 15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

Does a grave dug 6foot in the ground have a door?

Mar 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

The verses posted above along with some others give me a pretty good idea Jesus was not put in what we call today a grave. a 6foot hole in the ground... They read to me as if He was laid in what today the for Sepurlchre might be mausoleum .

Let me know when you have judged me as a non believer ...

 

[Sue D.]

I only brought up the fact of Jesus Christ being laid in a tomb because 'someone else' was Bound to. I believe that That was 'being buried'.

There are no examples in Scripture of sprinkling with children or anyone else.

Jesus Christ had John the Baptist baptize Him by immersion and the encounter with Philip and the eunich -- he requested a body of water so as to be baptized by immersion.

The disciples obviously were believers in Jesus. Why else would they follow Him. It's also true that under threat , fear of the Romans after His resurrection that they scattered -- spreading the Gospel as they went.

 

[Sue D.]

It would be a bit off point, so to continue that discussion past this post would (I think) require another thread. But the RCC believes as you, that Christ secures salvation for those who believe, although for them, His death makes up for what you can't. You would still need to do your part, the part that God knows you can do. No 'greasy grace' shirking there, ma'am.

Rhema

That would be a works-based salvation -- Ephesians 2:8-9 "not of works, lest any man should boast" For by grace you are saved by faith and not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.'

 

[Reba1]

SYNONYMS FOR buried


Compare Synonyms

• covered
• hidden
• entombed
• inhumed
• interred
• obscured
  

 

[Waggles]

What is with this constant finding of alternatives to the clear principles of scripture???

Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
1Corinthians15:4 that [Jesus] was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

John 12:24 Truly, truly, I [Jesus] say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
So then let us all be doers of the Word of God and not lawyers quibbling over loopholes.