Baptism - Here we go again

[Garee]

I'm tempted to ask where you got that idea about "strange fire" from ... but it can wait. And as a rhetorical consideration... these verses seem to conflict with your views.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

(Acts 2:22 KJV)​

​

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.​

(John 10:37-38 KJV)​

Rhema

Hi thanks for the reply.

The way I understand what you offered to consider is the miracles as sign they confirmed the prophecy spoken by Abraham it came to light 400 years later.

The sign was not given to the Egyptian . They understood not the parable the propmised to Abraham 400 years earlier its understanding was hid from them .
He brought signs against Egypt by the power of those signs he moved those out who did not trust prophecy the word of God. Literally killing all the first born Ending the Egyptian linage .

There is a difference in seeking after signs and wonders rather than believing prophecy (faith) Jesus said its an evil faithless generation, the generation of Adam natural converted man that does seek after No sign to wonder or marvel after was given other than the sign of Jonah fulfilled in the coming of the Son of man Jesus .

it was the faithless Jew that demanded a sign of Jesus before they would commit faith .Made Jesus into a circus seal .

I would ask. Why wonder rather than beleive? Jesus working with the father in the wilderness set the example. . .hear the voice of the father trust its faithful power do His will and not the will of the flesh . Three times with three used to represent the end of a matter The Lord gave his prophet Jesus words to rebuke the lying spirit . . as it is written and again as it is written. And then the lying spirit of lying sign as wonders disappeared.


Mathew 4:5-10 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The phrase strange fire is to represent the spirit of judgement I believe it would be anything mankind would add in order to give it his personal touch or self edifying . . . works righteousness. It was not part of the tradition of God. The ceremonial to represent the washing of the word the H20 they did use shows it has no redeeming power as a shadow .It is the foundation for the water baptism ceremony ,shadow same H20 different kingdom of priest from all nations. .

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.

 

[Rhema]

Not intended to mock . I find your posting interesting read.

Well then please accept my apologies. It's likely I'm oversensitive from other forums. Many do find me an interesting read right up until they grab the pitchforks and torches ("flame" for all you UKers).

Please what is the name and place of the hospital in your reply to... It was a couple years ago but most folks would, well, remember such a blessing .

One would think, even were one to raise the dead. BUT... as even the Messiah knew -

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.​

(Luke 16:31 KJV)​

Truth be told, many of whom received healing by the grace of God (through my hand) become scandalized, shun me, and then just will not speak of it. ONE fellow (just one) stood up amongst others and gave an anonymous thank you to the person who prayed for him (me). I was there when he did so. I'm torn between not being able to directly witness, and being glad that I did not lose my reward.

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.​

(Matthew 6:1 KJV)​

YES, I know it says alms, but the principle against "The Boast" is still there.

So... NO, it won't be remembered. It will be studiously ignored and swept under the rug (just like those old UFO sightings). But again, it's not by my will, but by the direction of the Holy Spirit. In a hospital of a few thousand, what impact would 23 healings have? The Dr.s just spout off "spontaneous remission".

Thank you for setting me straight (sometimes it's hard to tell...),
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

So, there is an impasse between us, we will just have to agree to disagree and please, less profane from now on!

There was no profanity in my post. Truly. So then you're just stoking the fires of conflict. (I know of your kind.)

But no, there is no impasse between us. Just an unwillingness on your part to learn. (I also know of that kind too.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Baptism is an important subject. Is baptism by immersion necessary for salvation or isn't it.

Hi Sue,

Repentance is necessary for salvation. Water baptism is to be a public declaration of internal repentance. It truly is and was a metaphor - to be born of water and breath (air - spirit) as every person so living has been born of water and spirit (breath) - but being born again of God, rather than of one's parents.

If a person is prohibited From baptism for some reason -- are they Really saved or aren't they.

Both Repentance and Regeneration are necessary for salvation - being born of water (water baptism signifying Repentance) and being born of the spirit (fire baptism signifying Regeneration).

The cross of calvary -- the shed blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient.

(Let's put a pin in that one...)

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?​

(Luke 11:13 KJV)​

(It would seem one needs to ask.)

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Waggles]

God does not require or want anything from man,

Au contraire - God wants your obedience.

 

[Waggles]

WATER is extremely significant to God in the scheme of creation and life.
The third rock from the Sun has water lots of water - the other planets are totally bereft of life giving water.
Right from the beginning in Genesis one it pretty well all begins with water ...
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters."
1:7 So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.

for without water there is no life
and what did Jesus promise the Samaritan woman at Jacob's Well - living water
John 4:7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water: Jesus said to her, Give me to drink.
4:8 For his disciples were gone away into the city to buy food.
4:9 Said therefore the Samaritan woman to him, How ask THOU, being a Jew, drink of me, who am a Samaritan woman? (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knew the gift of God, and who it is that said to thee, Give me to drink; thou would have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
4:11 She said to him, Sir, thou hast no pail, and the well is deep: whence then have thou the living water?
4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his sons, and his cattle?
4:13 Jesus answered and said her, Every one that drinks of this water shall thirst again:
4:14 but whoso drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a spring of water leaping up unto eternal life.

Water baptism by full immersion has great spiritual significance in the gospel of salvation.
It would be best to err on the side of caution and submit to the commandments of God written down for us to obey.
For if this disobedience is not rewarded by God then that would prove to be a costly mistake.
Better to obey God then the teachings of other men.

 

[Born Again 2004]

WATER is extremely significant to God in the scheme of creation and life.
The third rock from the Sun has water lots of water - the other planets are totally bereft of life giving water.
Right from the beginning in Genesis one it pretty well all begins with water ...
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters."
1:7 So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.

for without water there is no life
and what did Jesus promise the Samaritan woman at Jacob's Well - living water
John 4:7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water: Jesus said to her, Give me to drink.
4:8 For his disciples were gone away into the city to buy food.
4:9 Said therefore the Samaritan woman to him, How ask THOU, being a Jew, drink of me, who am a Samaritan woman? (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knew the gift of God, and who it is that said to thee, Give me to drink; thou would have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
4:11 She said to him, Sir, thou hast no pail, and the well is deep: whence then have thou the living water?
4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his sons, and his cattle?
4:13 Jesus answered and said her, Every one that drinks of this water shall thirst again:
4:14 but whoso drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a spring of water leaping up unto eternal life.

Water baptism by full immersion has great spiritual significance in the gospel of salvation.
It would be best to err on the side of caution and submit to the commandments of God written down for us to obey.
For if this disobedience is not rewarded by God then that would prove to be a costly mistake.
Better to obey God then the teachings of other men.

So, Water Baptism is the only way?

So, all that are Water Baptised are saved the first time? And God requires Man's participation?

So, if ALL are not saved the first time, then God is not I t perfect?

 

[Born Again 2004]

WATER is extremely significant to God in the scheme of creation and life.
The third rock from the Sun has water lots of water - the other planets are totally bereft of life giving water.
Right from the beginning in Genesis one it pretty well all begins with water ...
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters."
1:7 So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.

for without water there is no life
and what did Jesus promise the Samaritan woman at Jacob's Well - living water
John 4:7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water: Jesus said to her, Give me to drink.
4:8 For his disciples were gone away into the city to buy food.
4:9 Said therefore the Samaritan woman to him, How ask THOU, being a Jew, drink of me, who am a Samaritan woman? (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knew the gift of God, and who it is that said to thee, Give me to drink; thou would have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
4:11 She said to him, Sir, thou hast no pail, and the well is deep: whence then have thou the living water?
4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his sons, and his cattle?
4:13 Jesus answered and said her, Every one that drinks of this water shall thirst again:
4:14 but whoso drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a spring of water leaping up unto eternal life.

Water baptism by full immersion has great spiritual significance in the gospel of salvation.
It would be best to err on the side of caution and submit to the commandments of God written down for us to obey.
For if this disobedience is not rewarded by God then that would prove to be a costly mistake.
Better to obey God then the teachings of other men.

The story of the Samaritan Woman has no correlation to , above all else , water baptism but the power of Jesus that He offers to those who believe!

Case in point, why did Jesus not Water Bapise the Samaritin Woman?

 

[Reba1]

4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knew the gift of God, and who it is that said to thee, Give me to drink; thou would have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Strange how this verse gets twisted to baptism. Much of the discussion in this thread shows how dogmatic we Christians can be. Along with how important mankind thinks s/he is in the Gift of Salvation.

 

[Garee]

So Sad. Not a good sign.

I would offer. No such thing as a sign gift . . . . Spiritual gift not seen. . gift of faith . . yes it works in us empowering us to believe . . (Work of faith or called a labor of love.

God working in us to both will and empower us to perform his good pleasure . (Philippians 2:13-14)

Some delight of doing the will of the Father the substance of our daily bread. Others murmur , you could say saying. . What about me?

Better things accompany salvation .God promises he will not forget the good works we offer towards his name or power.

Those who had no faith coming as it is written (sola scriptura) when they saw the parable of Christ unfolding performed in Acts 14 The gospel prophesying the words of the Holy Father through Paul . . . the unbelievers attributed the work of God's Spirit the gospel to what they eyes see , to them with no faith (sola scriptura) it was a sign gift that multiplied into a legion of gods a tradition of men

They had no eternal vision of a unseen Holy God as it is written so they simply imagined their own as a law of men "gods in the likeness of men" (venerable men) and not after the invisible image of our highly venerable God .

Blasphemy against venerable God not sons of men apostles they have no power.

Acts14: 7-15 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:


(Preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities) = venerating men seen for the unseen work of the gospel.. The work God performs with us yoked with him our burden is lighter .

 

[Born Again 2004]

Strange how this verse gets twisted to baptism. Much of the discussion in this thread shows how dogmatic we Christians can be. Along with how important mankind thinks s/he is in the Gift of Salvation.

Your the one that seems to adhere to Water Baptism as the only means to salvation....If I am wrong, I apologize !

 

[Garee]

The story of the Samaritan Woman has no correlation to , above all else , water baptism but the power of Jesus that He offers to those who believe!

Case in point, why did Jesus not Water Bapise the Samaritin Woman?

I would offer. He did baptize her will the water of the word using the well of Jacob as living water the gospel producing new life to give her as us the spiritual understanding of that parable. She as a apostle sent by God took the living water to her gentile village and preached the good news.


John 4: 29-30 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.


Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Its how he baptizes us daily with the doctrine that fall like rain from above .Not inspired earthly as oral traditions of men . You could say our daily bread or called hidden manna as used in Revelation 2 . It was placed on the the dew of the earth again to represent the doctrine of God (all of them)

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Water that represents the unseen Holy Spirt dries up .Our heavenly father promises to never leave or forsake us just like the woman by the well

Husbands wash our wives with the doctrines of God that fall like rain (not literal rain)

 

[Brother-Paul]

You may be into scriptural alternatives but God is not.

There are many items in scripture that are very clear, there are also many that are not or do not provide enough information, baptism is one of these words and has been a subject of debate for a very long time.

Please show me a scripture that clearly says a person, has to be, or was at the time, baptised by full immersion into water.

The word used is batizo not bapto

 

[Born Again 2004]

I would offer. He did baptize her will the water of the word using the well of Jacob as living water the gospel producing new life to give her as us the spiritual understanding of that parable. She as a apostle sent by God took the living water to her gentile village and preached the good news.


John 4: 29-30 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.


Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Its how he baptizes us daily with the doctrine that fall like rain from above .Not inspired earthly as oral traditions of men . You could say our daily bread or called hidden manna as used in Revelation 2 . It was placed on the the dew of the earth again to represent the doctrine of God (all of them)

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Water that represents the unseen Holy Spirt dries up .Our heavenly father promises to never leave or forsake us just like the woman by the well

Husbands wash our wives with the doctrines of God that fall like rain (not literal rain)

Yes, baptising her with word or Himself, is not the same as Water Baptism !

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, baptising her with word or Himself (also the same as the Holy Spirit)
is not the same as Water Baptism !

 

[Reba1]

Your the one that seems to adhere to Water Baptism as the only means to salvation....If I am wrong, I apologize !

Thanks for being clear.... A lot can get lost when there is no eye contact ... I will be as clear as i can
I an saved by His Grace alone
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To me if one thinks getting baptized is a necessary step to salvation it is then WORKS . Yet i do not appose being baptized . I am not picky about the manor of baptism one chooses.. I chose getting dunked i a river . I know the argument about the phrase "coming up out of the water" it could mean He walked out of the river it could mean John lifted Him up from under the water.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This thread is full of boasting.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Well it doesn't mean to splash around in water. See the Lexical entry above. Note the section about Baptizo meaning to get soaked. It's not like there's ANY indication in the NT that someone used a pot or pitcher to pour water over your head, and as mentioned, John tB wasn't standing there splashing you with water either.

Maybe you'll find the Middle Liddell to be more clear - (LINK) - to dip in or under water.

I have numerous sources for the information required. If you like the liddell one that is your personal choice, I will use Strongs for this example as it shows the differences clearer

Greek Strong's Number: 907
Greek Word: βαπτίζω
Transliteration: baptizō
Phonetic Pronunciation: bap-tid'-zo
Root: from a derivative of <G911>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:529,92
Part of Speech: verb

English Words used in KJV:
baptize (76)
wash 2
baptist 1
baptized + <G2258> 1
[Total Count: 80]

NOTE: from a derivative of <G911> (bapto); to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N.T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technical) of the ordinance of Christian baptism :- baptist, baptize, wash.

Strong, J. (2020). Strong’s Talking Greek and Hebrew Dictionary.


Baptise: A ritual of initiation into a religious community, often through the immersion of a person into a body of water, but also performed in various other ways through sprinkling, washing, or pouring water over a person. In some religions, blood may have been used rather than water.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I'm not sure there has ever been such a golden age. It certainly has not been my experience over 60 years.

The kind of discussion that you seek requires a great deal of grace and graciousness that must be learned and then practiced. My early teen years in an IFCA affiliate gives witness to the acrostic I Fight Catholics Anywhere. It's unfortunate that while civil discourse must be learned, it just isn't taught, while the hate is - even a hate on behalf of GOD... (there's a reason, but I don't wish to digress off point).

Kindly,
Rhema

It did happen, it still can happen, did the disciples not sit with Jesus, listening to him and discussing the things he said. Most of the time yes.

Jesus said, love one another as I have loved you. If a person cannot do that it is down to the person, their attitude, their opinion, they always get in the way.
Families used to come together and play games together, (not mine) Ludo, Snakes and Ladders, card games etc. Now families are split, husband on laptop, wife watching soaps and dramas on TV, kids in their own room playing violent and killing games or watching things maybe they shouldn't.

The family unit has become fragmented, facebook and the like breeding grounds for opinions and attitudes.

Harding of hearts, children having no respect and disobedient to their parents, it's all me, me, me.

As you say these things are not taught, women have kids and cannot wait to go to work, parents rely on teachers to teach kids right and wrong, I heard one say, no one teaches us how to be a parent, they don't know God our Father for sure. That is why the world is like it is.

 

[Butch5]

I never understood why this is an issue. Jesus made it plain. 'He who believes and is baptized, shall be saved'. Believes and is baptized are both present states of being. Shall be saved is a future state. Thus, one must be baptized. It's a grammatical argument that cannot be gotten around.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings brother

It isn't the grammar, it is the definition of what baptised is.