Contemporary Judaizers

[Barny]

Jesus showed and proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the union of the human with the divine makes it possible to live without sin...in this life. Answered above.

Hi braklite,

I see your still preaching a righteousness by works of the law gospel.

But we see in Heb 10:14 that Christians have been perfected.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Christ's one offering perfected us. There is no gradual process, as this scripture confirms.
This perfection does not refer to the physical. The physical will never be perfect. In fact the physical is already dead (by faith) for a Christian, as we see in Rom 8:10.

Rom 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteoness.

Christians are complete in Christ. There is no gradual process towards perfection. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was complete in Christ and did not go through any process towards perfection. To preach otherwise is to contradict God's word.

Col 2:7-10
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

 

[DHC]

Hi braklite,

I see your still preaching a righteousness by works of the law gospel.

But we see in Heb 10:14 that Christians have been perfected.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Christ's one offering perfected us. There is no gradual process, as this scripture confirms.
This perfection does not refer to the physical. The physical will never be perfect. In fact the physical is already dead (by faith) for a Christian, as we see in Rom 8:10.

Rom 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteoness.

Hello Barny.

You said;

Christ's one offering perfected us. There is no gradual process, as this scripture confirms.
This perfection does not refer to the physical. The physical will never be perfect. In fact the physical
is already dead (by faith) for a Christian, as we see in Rom 8:10.

So is your point of view confirmed by the scripture?

Romans 6
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead
through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would
no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

We do not tarry with sin by the repeated application of the ointment of the commandments.

The sinful flesh cannot be cured, it must die and has already been crucified.

Our old self has already been crucified and we are new creations in Christ.

We are no longer enslaved by our sinful desires as our flesh is stone cold dead.

The person whose flesh is dead is free of sin!

The person whose flesh is dead cannot sin!

The deeds of the flesh can only occur when the flesh is alive and kicking.

knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with!!!

 

[Barny]

So is your point of view confirmed by the scripture?

Romans 6
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead
through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would
no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

We do not tarry with sin by the repeated application of the ointment of the commandments.

The sinful flesh cannot be cured, it must die and has already been crucified.

Our old self has already been crucified and we are new creations in Christ.

We are no longer enslaved by our sinful desires as our flesh is stone cold dead.

The person whose flesh is dead is free of sin!

The person whose flesh is dead cannot sin!

The deeds of the flesh can only occur when the flesh is alive and kicking.

knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with!!!

Hi DHC,

Yes, scripture confirms that Christians are already perfected, by Christ's one offering (Heb 10:14). There is no gradual process towards perfection as some try to teach.

Your quote of Rom 6:3-7 says it all.
Romans 6
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead
through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would
no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Christians have "ceased from sin".
How?
1Pet 4:1
“Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him.Romans 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Romans 6:6) has CEASED from sin,”

Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin

All Christians have been "perfected" by Christ's one offering. Heb 10:14
All Christians are holy, Rom 11:16
All Christians are complete in Christ, Col 2:10.

All the above is not determined by whether we attain some minimum standard of good behavior/lifestyle. It is based on our believing on Jesus.

Christians obey God's will and God's will is described in John 6:40.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[NoHype]

• Alas, I am on a sinful road now, thank you for pointing that out to me!
• I have a repentant heart because the Holy Spirit chastise me daily and his blood washes me still.
• For your information,Jesus knows what is in my heart much better than you and me and my house will follow the Lord.
• That includes nothing this side of Hell can cause us to "fall way", absolutely nothing, for our God is much too perfect and powerfull for such a thing to happen.I am very sorry that you constantly live under the doubt that he can't and is not for you.

That's right, the OSAS doctrine of men is not of God, because it is being used as a license to sin by the "hireling" of John 10.

 

[RJ]

That's right, the OSAS doctrine of men is not of God, because it is being used as a license to sin by the "hireling" of John 10.

• I am not sure exactly what your agenda is but your slander is unbecoming of a Christian. You don't know me. I do know that I never , in the very slightest, consider myself to disregard sin much less "have a license to sin".
• Oh , I do disagree with you but I have never painted you in a corner or said such derogatory comments about your belief. I probably have even stated before for us to agree to disagree.
• I will say this and I go back here at T.J.'s at least to 2009 stating this: Individuals, as yourself, who are anti-OSAS have something very in common and that is: You seem to have no recourse but to attack and everyone of you always come to the point of saying that we, a person who believes is OSAS, disregard sin, can sin all we want or the proverbial, "License To Sin".
• That is quite insulting and could not be further from the truth!
• You have no clue of what you are talking about!

 

[NoHype]

• I am not sure exactly what your agenda is but your slander is unbecoming of a Christian. You don't know me. I do know that I never , in the very slightest, consider myself to disregard sin much less "have a license to sin".
• Oh , I do disagree with you but I have never painted you in a corner or said such derogatory comments about your belief. I probably have even stated before for us to agree to disagree.
• I will say this and I go back here at T.J.'s at least to 2009 stating this: Individuals, as yourself, who are anti-OSAS have something very in common and that is: You seem to have no recourse but to attack and everyone of you always come to the point of saying that we, a person who believes is OSAS, disregard sin, can sin all we want or the proverbial, "License To Sin".
• That is quite insulting and could not be further from the truth!
• You have no clue of what you are talking about!

Why that OSAS doctrine is dangerous to the believer:

1. it is being used in some Churches to tell new believers on Christ Jesus that once they have received Him and been baptized, there is no more they need do, essentially teaching them they really don't have to make a change in their lives to stay in Christ, i.e., like they can follow the world and be in Christ too. The reality is it's one or the other, but not both God and mammon (Matt.6:24).

2. that doctrine promotes the lie that we as believers cannot... sin anymore, nor be convicted of sin anymore. It rejects Apostle John's teaching in 1 John 1 to the believer, and Paul's teaching in Romans 7 about the battle between our spirit and flesh.

3. that doctrine also teaches the lie that there is no more future repentance and asking forgiveness of Christ for future sins we may commit. It essentially destroys... the phrase "forgive us our sins" in The Lord's Prayer that He gave us per Luke 11 on how to pray when we pray.

 

[RJ]

Why that OSAS doctrine is dangerous to the believer:

1. it is being used in some Churches to tell new believers on Christ Jesus that once they have received Him and been baptized, there is no more they need do, essentially teaching them they really don't have to make a change in their lives to stay in Christ, i.e., like they can follow the world and be in Christ too. The reality is it's one or the other, but not both God and mammon (Matt.6:24).

2. that doctrine promotes the lie that we as believers cannot... sin anymore, nor be convicted of sin anymore. It rejects Apostle John's teaching in 1 John 1 to the believer, and Paul's teaching in Romans 7 about the battle between our spirit and flesh.

3. that doctrine also teaches the lie that there is no more future repentance and asking forgiveness of Christ for future sins we may commit. It essentially destroys... the phrase "forgive us our sins" in The Lord's Prayer that He gave us per Luke 11 on how to pray when we pray.

Not a clue about me, you just think you do!
But, with the above thread, you peak my interest on another subject your phrase " forgive us our sins".

• Would you mind discusing that and discussing a few questions?
• No accuations like your not going to make it through the "Narrow Gate" or any other statements of not being saved or that one is lieing, agreed?

 

[NetChaplain]

essentially teaching them they really don't have to make a change in their lives to stay in Christ,

An unchanged life confirms an unregenerate life!

 

[RJ]

An unchanged life confirms an unregenerate life!

Could please show me the full post that you pulled that quote out of?

 

[NetChaplain]

Could please show me the full post that you pulled that quote out of?

Sorry RJ, I've been doing the same thing with others, mistakenly posting quotes from others that were not quoted from them, but is in their post as a quote, if that makes sense. When I did a quote select from post 107 I assumed it would show the quote from who I got it, which in this case was a quote from NoHype. I've got to watch that more carefully, as I've been telling NH.

 

[RJ]

Sorry RJ, I've been doing the same thing with others, mistakenly posting quotes from others that were not quoted from them, but is in their post as a quote, if that makes sense. When I did a quote select from post 107 I assumed it would show the quote from who I got it, which in this case was a quote from NoHype. I've got to watch that more carefully, as I've been telling NH.

I was suspecting it sounded more like what noHype would say.

 

[DHC]

Why that OSAS doctrine is dangerous to the believer:

1. it is being used in some Churches to tell new believers on Christ Jesus that once they have received Him and been baptized, there is no more they need do, essentially teaching them they really don't have to make a change in their lives to stay in Christ, i.e., like they can follow the world and be in Christ too. The reality is it's one or the other, but not both God and mammon (Matt.6:24).

2. that doctrine promotes the lie that we as believers cannot... sin anymore, nor be convicted of sin anymore. It rejects Apostle John's teaching in 1 John 1 to the believer, and Paul's teaching in Romans 7 about the battle between our spirit and flesh.

3. that doctrine also teaches the lie that there is no more future repentance and asking forgiveness of Christ for future sins we may commit. It essentially destroys... the phrase "forgive us our sins" in The Lord's Prayer that He gave us per Luke 11 on how to pray when we pray.

Hello NoHype.

The points you mentioned are not valid points, OSAS is not guilty of any of these accusations.

Methinks you need to understand what OSAS actually teaches NoHype.

 

[NoHype]

An unchanged life confirms an unregenerate life!

Yeah, but that's what a lot of the OSAS doctrines indirectly preach, because to believe that it's impossible for us to still sin after having come to Christ, and need not repent ever again is one of their lies.

 

[NoHype]

Hello NoHype.

The points you mentioned are not valid points, OSAS is not guilty of any of these accusations.

Methinks you need to understand what OSAS actually teaches NoHype.

That's what the doctrine is about today. It may not have been as much so in past history. One of the main OSAS doctrines of today is that it is impossible for the believer to have sin anymore, and thus they need no future repentance to Christ Jesus. It is a doctrine that originated with Calvin.

 

[RJ]

Yeah, but that's what a lot of the OSAS doctrines indirectly preach, because to believe that it's impossible for us to still sin after having come to Christ, and need not repent ever again is one of their lies.

See, there you go again more un-truths. You , to support you doctrines, can only resort to false statements:

• Including myself, never have met a OSAS supporter that states that it is impossible for us to sin, just the opposite!
• The Holy Spirit continues to chastise us towards a repentive heart! And we don't lie about it!

 

[B-A-C]

That's what the doctrine is about today. It may not have been as much so in past history. One of the main OSAS doctrines of today is that it is impossible for the believer to have sin anymore, and thus they need no future repentance to Christ Jesus. It is a doctrine that originated with Calvin.

This is more of an antimonianst belief, rather than a Calvinist belief. Baptists believe Christians can sin. However, there are extreme Calvinists that do not believe in freewill.
Some believe this to the point that God is in control of everything you do. You have no choice about what you do. They believe freewill is an illusion. So to them, even the
sins you do are ultimately caused by God.

 

[B-A-C]

Interesting thread. There are truly contemporary Jews. They still obey the law and are still waiting for the Messiah.
There are three points of view here...

1. I don't need Jesus, I can obey the law and commandments good enough to get by. ( Jews who are still waiting for Messiah ).

2. Jesus is all I need. I'm not under the law or the commandments anymore. His grace covers me, no matter how immoral I am.

3. I can try my best to obey God's commandments, but I will likely fail, that's why I need Jesus. His grace covers my failures.

(Of course Atheism would be a 4th option, but you can't relate that to Judaism.)

I would only consider option 1 a true "Judaizer".

 

[NoHype]

See, there you go again more un-truths. You , to support you doctrines, can only resort to false statements:

• Including myself, never have met a OSAS supporter that states that it is impossible for us to sin, just the opposite!
• The Holy Spirit continues to chastise us towards a repentive heart! And we don't lie about it!

So does that mean you repent to Christ as needed when you do future mess ups? If not, then you think He will save you regardless of doing iniquity, which is one of the doctrines that came from Calvinism that formed the OSAS doctrines of men.

 

[NoHype]

This is more of an antimonianst belief, rather than a Calvinist belief. Baptists believe Christians can sin. However, there are extreme Calvinists that do not believe in freewill.
Some believe this to the point that God is in control of everything you do. You have no choice about what you do. They believe freewill is an illusion. So to them, even the
sins you do are ultimately caused by God.

Those ideas that we as believers no longer sin began with the Reformers. Calvin just went further with it. And many of the Baptists and Protestant Churches did also. I was raised in a Protestant Church, but they never taught doctrines like we can no longer sin and thus don't need to repent to Christ of future sin. Refusing the need for future repentance to Christ is contrary to 1 John 1 and many NT Scriptures that tell believers to repent.

OSAS with the idea that no further repentance of sin is necessary will lead the believer to think they have no need to check their walk in Christ, simply because they think by Faith all future works are justified. But how we know that really is not true, which is why Jesus gave us the example of the five foolish virgins with His closing the door on them, and those of Matt.7 because they did iniquity.

The reality is, that if we truly believe on Christ by Faith, then we are going to have works that go with that Faith. It's like where one's treasure is, that's where your heart will be, and that's where your works will spring from. So a follower of the flesh that loves the flesh, their works will be based on their flesh. But a believer on Christ Jesus with works that follow the flesh instead of works in Him? There's the rub of the OSAS doctrines of men, because it promotes a lie to the believer that they can live according to their flesh after having believed on Christ, since they are told sin is now dead to them and they have no further need to repent of sin.

 

[B-A-C]

OSAS with the idea that no further repentance of sin is necessary will lead the believer to think they have no need to check their walk in Christ, simply because they think by Faith all future works are justified. But how we know that really is not true, which is why Jesus gave us the example of the five foolish virgins with His closing the door on them, and those of Matt.7 because they did iniquity.

I am not a Calvinist (not even a Baptist, although I did attend a Baptist church for a few years). Even the OSAS crowd is divided on this.
As you say, some believe in future grace for unconfessed sins. ( Plymouth Brethren, Darbyism )
But others believe in the "confess as you go" theology. (Much like mainstream Protestantism). The only difference from their point of view is... If you are really saved, you will do this as a matter of fact.
I am completely 100% believer in freewill as well.

Jesus said even believers need their feet washed every once in a while. ( John 13:8-10; )
John said if we confess our sins, He will forgive us, ( 1 Jn 1:9; ) but what if we don't confess our sins?

Also see James 5:16; Psalms 32:3-5;