Do we have freewill ? did we have freewill since the beginning ?

[Bill]

Excuses but god bless ya and good job soldier other will continue to work ;D

Plowboy is ok , he doesnt know it yet, but God is going to use plowboy more than ever from the beginning of the Great Day of the Lord till his death.

 

[Bill]

I agree that the Lord does this for all those who put their trust & hope in Jesus Christ to being their Good Shepherd & Friend.

Looking back at all the mistakes I had made and how stupid & foolish I was, it is amazing how much God is my Friend and my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him.

Think of where you will be when a double potion of the Holy Spirit fills you. Lol

 

[Bill]

We can freewill decide to stop sinning and be baptized if Freewill existed in Eden ? Yes, Adam choose to go right and obey and not eat of the tree and fell and choosed left and sinned and had freewill in it. Freewill was before the creation ? Yes, the devil had freewill and he rebbeled and did sin and did wrong ! We don't follow the devil but choose to do good with our promblem of knowing good and evil !

God gives us the freedom to walk with Him or sin on a daily basis.

And we sin often, by our own decisions.

Issues with Catholics, or catholics to other churches. This division only comes from the devil. And it create sin in us. Of course there are many other sins that take place lost anger hate when we do these things to the least of our brothers and sisters we do these things to Jesus as well. It is a bit of a two-sided coin that phrase. When you help the sick, feed the hungry, cloth the naked. When you do it for the least of these you do it for me as well.

 

[GodB4Us]

Think of where you will be when a double potion of the Holy Spirit fills you. Lol

Would that not make God look evil in showing partiality within the body of Christ?

If we are all suppose to speak the same thing and hold to the same judgment, then there can only be on drink of the One Spirit and that only happened at our salvation moment as born again of the Spirit as always Spirit-filled since salvation as a testimony from God that He has saved us.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

So there is no more filling of the Holy Spirit when we are always Spirit-filled as a testimony that we are preserved as in saved.

There is sowing to the fruits of the Spirit as opposing sowing to the works of the flesh but our confidence is in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us to His glory for why our eyes should be on the Son rather than the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...
...11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Everything the Holy Spirit says and does is from the Lord Jesus Christ for why the Spirit in us would defer all credit & glory for what the Spirit has done to lead us to give all the credit & glory to the Son.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So those who have gone astray are still always Spirit-filled for why they need not seek another filling of the Holy Spirit, but apply hope & confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ to restore us to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.

 

[GodB4Us]

We can freewill decide to stop sinning and be baptized if Freewill existed in Eden ? Yes, Adam choose to go right and obey and not eat of the tree and fell and choosed left and sinned and had freewill in it. Freewill was before the creation ? Yes, the devil had freewill and he rebbeled and did sin and did wrong ! We don't follow the devil but choose to do good with our promblem of knowing good and evil !

Why speak of the free will of the saved believer or before Adam had sinned? Why not speak of the faith and hope that we have in Jesus Christ in being our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him thereby to believe in Him for all things?

 

[Bill]

Would that not make God look evil in showing partiality within the body of Christ?

If we are all suppose to speak the same thing and hold to the same judgment, then there can only be on drink of the One Spirit and that only happened at our salvation moment as born again of the Spirit as always Spirit-filled since salvation as a testimony from God that He has saved us.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

So there is no more filling of the Holy Spirit when we are always Spirit-filled as a testimony that we are preserved as in saved.

There is sowing to the fruits of the Spirit as opposing sowing to the works of the flesh but our confidence is in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us to His glory for why our eyes should be on the Son rather than the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...
...11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Everything the Holy Spirit says and does is from the Lord Jesus Christ for why the Spirit in us would defer all credit & glory for what the Spirit has done to lead us to give all the credit & glory to the Son.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So those who have gone astray are still always Spirit-filled for why they need not seek another filling of the Holy Spirit, but apply hope & confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ to restore us to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.

There are two baptisms and actually there are three but the third one comes after you pass away.

1 Corinthians 12:13 is talking about the water baptism. When you read words talking about coming together as one body is the one body or the one Church that is when it's talking about the water baptism because we are all brought together as one in the Lord. Into God's family

When you are baptized in the spirit it is completely different. The Holy Spirit leads you and myself and everyone else to grow deeper in our love for God, and deeper in our love for our fellow Christians.

It is through this love that I never hold any anger or hatred or judgment against my brothers and sisters the Protestants.

It is also through this love that I choose to do the will of the the Father, and the task that he has given to me.

 

[GodB4Us]

There are two baptisms and actually there are three but the third one comes after you pass away.

In regards to the Holy Spirit, there is only one and that happens when we are born again of the Spirit at our salvation moment when we had first believed in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel..

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 12:13 is talking about the water baptism. When you read words talking about coming together as one body is the one body or the one Church that is when it's talking about the water baptism because we are all brought together as one in the Lord. Into God's family

1 Corinthians 12:2 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Not wrtten as all made to drink into one water, but all made to drink into one Spirit thus the baptism with the Holy Spirit at our salvation moment for how we enter the body of Christ.

When you are baptized in the spirit it is completely different. The Holy Spirit leads you and myself and everyone else to grow deeper in our love for God, and deeper in our love for our fellow Christians.

It is through this love that I never hold any anger or hatred or judgment against my brothers and sisters the Protestants.

It is also through this love that I choose to do the will of the the Father, and the task that he has given to me.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

There can be no other baptism with the Holy Spirit apart from salvation; otherwise this warning above is moot.

The one thing you are also overlooking is that this phenomenon of feeling the reception of the spirit can repeat again and again and again which is after the rudiment of the world and thus not after Christ.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

You have been complete in Christ since salvation at the calling of the gospel when you had first believed and had received Him for why we are to walk in Him rather than believe we have not come to our resting place in Jesus Christ.

Proverbs 24:10 If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

I am warning you brother that you are at risk of being left behind. I cannot make you see your error even by the scripture. I am asking you to ask the Lord Jesus Christ in normal prayer to discern what it is you are preaching that is not really the gospel of Jesus Christ, but an apostasy by preaching another baptism of the Holy Ghost by a sign as if that takes place apart from salvation when there is no other drink of the One Spirit by how we were all baptized into that one body of Christ.

 

[Bill]

In regards to the Holy Spirit, there is only one and that happens when we are born again of the Spirit at our salvation moment when we had first believed in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel..

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 12:2 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Not wrtten as all made to drink into one water, but all made to drink into one Spirit thus the baptism with the Holy Spirit at our salvation moment for how we enter the body of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

There can be no other baptism with the Holy Spirit apart from salvation; otherwise this warning above is moot.

The one thing you are also overlooking is that this phenomenon of feeling the reception of the spirit can repeat again and again and again which is after the rudiment of the world and thus not after Christ.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

You have been complete in Christ since salvation at the calling of the gospel when you had first believed and had received Him for why we are to walk in Him rather than believe we have not come to our resting place in Jesus Christ.

Proverbs 24:10 If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

I am warning you brother that you are at risk of being left behind. I cannot make you see your error even by the scripture. I am asking you to ask the Lord Jesus Christ in normal prayer to discern what it is you are preaching that is not really the gospel of Jesus Christ, but an apostasy by preaching another baptism of the Holy Ghost by a sign as if that takes place apart from salvation when there is no other drink of the One Spirit by how we were all baptized into that one body of Christ.

I am sorry for laughing, my friend. You wrote the following.

"I am warning you brother that you are at risk of being left behind. I cannot make you see your error even by the scripture. I am asking you to ask the Lord Jesus Christ in normal prayer to discern what it is you are preaching that is not really the gospel of Jesus Christ, but an apostasy by preaching another baptism of the Holy Ghost by a sign as if that takes place apart from salvation when there is no other drink of the One Spirit by how we were all baptized into that one body of Christ."

As i have been saying all along. I am not going anywhere, until God's assigned task is done. The day i die, they will not bury me, but i will be left in the street for 3 days .... and then God will call my name.

 

[Br. Bear]

let us get back to the OP?


Post in Peace, prayerfully, please

 

[hopefulson]

LOL, My field is not "Philosophical Thoughts" nor "Religious Studies" but "Theology Proper" but still the saying is true although modern day Critics, worldly thinkers will not agree but it is still true "Theology is the Queen of All Sciences and Philosophy is her handmaiden" When all sciences has gotten there, The correct "Theology: has been there and gone. for Theology, correct Theology deals and dwells in the rims of "ETERNITY" " The Incomprehensibility" of The Finite Mind. Philosophical Thoughts cannot travel there and all others sciences have not the wisdom to comprehend its location. But our GOD has A Bridge by a divine transformation Created in "Christ JESUS", 'that the world cannot know, and HE has confounded the Wisdom of The Wise. And they cannot get there. "But they have sought many devices" to Do so.

NASB 1995
“Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”

(Ecclesiastes 12)BSB
"And by these, my son, be further warned: There is no end to the making of many books, and much study wearies the body. ...When all has been heard, the conclusion of THE MATTER IS THIS: FEAR GOD and keep His COMMANDMENTS , becauseTHIS IS THE whole duty of man. ..FOR GOD will bring every deed into judgment, along with every HIDDEN THING whether good or evil.…" [and that is a "Promise"]

You Guys Are FUN!!!

 

[Bill]

You Guys Are FUN!!!

I am glad we amuse you . Lol

I am sure we have added a few grey hairs to Bro. Bears head, that is if he has any hair left

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

We have freewill God lets us decide to do good or bad and our purpose in life is when we make that decision. it's easy to not know that purpose because we are different. But freewill God gives it but he also gives us the law and the law is not wrong and niether is freewill just soceity itself is wrong and we have forgotten what is the normal back in those days. Society mistakes and thinks G-d is against freewill but gave freewill the right to choose and they have invented freewill is voting, paying taxes, and civics duties.

We do NOT have a “free will” to do bad, we have a NATURAL WILL to do bad. Selfishness is inherent from birth, our survival instinct is automatically activated in certain circumstances. Fear, lust, hatred, etc. are all natural feelings as a response to those circumstances. However, we do have a free will to OVERCOME these feelings and to do good, that's what free will is for.

 

[Curtis]

If man has a "free will" to be able to between choose life or death. Does God have a "free will" to choose those who choose him? If God uses "adoption" to add sons (and he does) then the word "adoption" is made up of two words, "ad" which means "to" and the word, "option" which means, "choose".Together they mean, "to choose" God chooses those who choose him to be their savior. That is free will for both God and man.

 

[hopefulson]

I have a deep road to lead you guys down if you care to take it and explore ( If we can't say NO do we morally exist ?) Is not the answer found in the fact that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden in the first place? Is not free will a prerequisite for ALL of Existence? Is not respect the moral currency of existence? If God does not respect a thing can it exist? This is a deep hole but, it is a beautiful place to explore.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I have a deep road to lead you guys down if you care to take it and explore ( If we can't say NO do we morally exist ?) Is not the answer found in the fact that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden in the first place? Is not free will a prerequisite for ALL of Existence? Is not respect the moral currency of existence? If God does not respect a thing can it exist? This is a deep hole but, it is a beautiful place to explore.

It's never a deep hole to me. What matters the most is never this philosophical, ethereal concept of "free will" itself, but what "free will" is for. There're three basic practices taught by the Lord in His first sermon: give, pray, fast. These are totally against human nature, as we all have a natural tendency to take, boast and eat. That's why we need a free will to give, pray and fast, and to do them genuinely instead of virtue signaling like the pharisees.

 

[Bill]

We do NOT have a “free will” to do bad, we have a NATURAL WILL to do bad. Selfishness is inherent from birth, our survival instinct is automatically activated in certain circumstances. Fear, lust, hatred, etc. are all natural feelings as a response to those circumstances. However, we do have a free will to OVERCOME these feelings and to do good, that's what free will is for.

Why is everybody into will I mean you hear people say we have a free will and then you hear other people say fire at will. I feel us Williams take a beating on the use of our name

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Why is everybody into will I mean you hear people say we have a free will and then you hear other people say fire at will. I feel us Williams take a beating on the use of our name

I’m not, honestly. Human is a creature of habits, what we do daily determines what we become permanently, therefore the older we are, the less free our will.

 

[Bill]

I’m not, honestly. Human is a creature of habits, what we do daily determines what we become permanently, therefore the older we are, the less free our will.

Lol well said

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Greetings, joining the discussion.

So, @emanuel88 define "free will" please.

Without looking at the dictionary, I'll just throw out something and let me know
if this is what you mean by "free will".

Would you say that "free will" is the ability to make a choice where options are possible
and no option is fixed?

For example, a rock that is dropped from a cliff does not have free-will to fall or not.
The laws of gravity fixes it's trajectory and demands that the rock takes the only path
available, which is to fall.

Or, if I program a computer operating system that works with a keyboard and everytime
I press the "A" on the keyboard A is displayed in the word document, and everytime I press
"B" on the keyboard, B is displayed on the word document. There is not freewill in the software
program, it is determine that there is a set input and a set output.

So are human beings, creation or beings with a certain composition which they lead
to set thoughts and set behaviors and set therefore set consequences? Is that the question.

For example, I think about animals. The behaviors of animals is very much set by their nature
and it is very hard for animals to change from their "programming" or nature.

For example, I"ve never seen a Lion wake up one day and say to itself
"you know what, I don't want to eat Zebras anymore, I want to be a vegetarian"
and I've never seen a Zebra wake up one day and say, "you know what, I want
to eat meat and not grass". They seem to not have that "free will" or that ability to make
a choice to freely choose between options where neither option is fixed."

Whereas humans are been observed doing all kinds of things which is contrary to what
many other humans have done before. It appears that we do have free-will.

However I believe that we often confused our free-will with God already knowing what will happen.

I always us this example.
Imagine watching a football game, the Superbowl from 1995. As you watch this game from 1995, years
ago, does the fact that you know how the game will end, does that mean that the players playing the game
never had freewill? Of course not. They were able to play freely when they played the game, it is just
that now you are watching the game after it has already happened and you know the outcome.

People wrongly look at God's omniscient (all knowing-including the future) and rationalize
that since God already knows who will be saved and won't, that means that we are not free.
I disagree.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Greetings, joining the discussion.

So, @emanuel88 define "free will" please.

Without looking at the dictionary, I'll just throw out something and let me know
if this is what you mean by "free will".

Would you say that "free will" is the ability to make a choice where options are possible
and no option is fixed?

For example, a rock that is dropped from a cliff does not have free-will to fall or not.
The laws of gravity fixes it's trajectory and demands that the rock takes the only path
available, which is to fall.

Or, if I program a computer operating system that works with a keyboard and everytime
I press the "A" on the keyboard A is displayed in the word document, and everytime I press
"B" on the keyboard, B is displayed on the word document. There is not freewill in the software
program, it is determine that there is a set input and a set output.

So are human beings, creation or beings with a certain composition which they lead
to set thoughts and set behaviors and set therefore set consequences? Is that the question.

For example, I think about animals. The behaviors of animals is very much set by their nature
and it is very hard for animals to change from their "programming" or nature.

For example, I"ve never seen a Lion wake up one day and say to itself
"you know what, I don't want to eat Zebras anymore, I want to be a vegetarian"
and I've never seen a Zebra wake up one day and say, "you know what, I want
to eat meat and not grass". They seem to not have that "free will" or that ability to make
a choice to freely choose between options where neither option is fixed."

Whereas humans are been observed doing all kinds of things which is contrary to what
many other humans have done before. It appears that we do have free-will.

However I believe that we often confused our free-will with God already knowing what will happen.

I always us this example.
Imagine watching a football game, the Superbowl from 1995. As you watch this game from 1995, years
ago, does the fact that you know how the game will end, does that mean that the players playing the game
never had freewill? Of course not. They were able to play freely when they played the game, it is just
that now you are watching the game after it has already happened and you know the outcome.

People wrongly look at God's omniscient (all knowing-including the future) and rationalize
that since God already knows who will be saved and won't, that means that we are not free.
I disagree.

God definitely does, but we don't. Never had, and never will. God is beyond the time-space continuum, He is the beginning and the end because he created everything in the first place. It's like we're in a universe of simulation, and he's playing and controlling from the outside, the Bible is like a script recorded from the people of Israel's perspective. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I'm just using that as an analogy.

However, back to us, we definitely have a free will, we can think of anything, we can let our fantasy run wild, we can create our own universe in our mind, but the thing is, what we actually DO in reality highly depends on how strong our HABITs are. Why I'm repeatedly bringing this up? Because habits are like inertia, a tendency to remain in its previous status, so whatever you've been doing, you have a tendency to continue doing it, whereas free will is a spiritual power to OVERCOME this inertia. The biggest obstable is not peer pressure or other external conditions, it's the inertia of your own habits.