Does Anybody Believe in Hell?

[Butch5]

God has no boundaries on what he can do.

To ask such a question about God is very telling about yourself

thanks

Hi Dave,
I didn't ask any questions about God. We're told that a place where the wicked will be burned up will at some point in the future be made holy to the Lord. It's just a logical question to ask how someone would burn forever in a place that isn't going to burn forever.

I think the real question should be, why would someone believe that people will burn forever in a place that doesn't burn forever?

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- other than the fact that your comment makes no sense?!

Dave M. made a good point.

 

[Butch5]

'we' Also have a soul that is Immortal. it Will continue on Forever.

someone can point out over and over again that 1+1= 3 , but we all know that it doesn't.

It has Also been comment numerous times that 'we' don't like the idea of suffering Forever. Look at Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. .......vs 13 the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." The term "Death" is only mentioned twice , but it sure sounds like those people who were Dead were brought back to life to be judged. And apparently that verse is the basis of people in hell / Lake of fire and brimstone / will suffer according to how sinful they were. That everyone who does Not accept Jesus Christ as their savior will Be in that lake of fire and brimstone but not suffering the same as their neighbor.

the soul / spirit of a person Does last forever.

God the Father is the Only One who's existed forever. No beginning. Genesis 1;1 " In the beginning God created .... God has always been. He created everything. He has been in charge , He is in charge Now and He will continue To be in charge.

We had a beginning -- but We Will last forever. this physical body Will die. But the rest of 'us' does continue on forever. Either in lake of fire and brimstone Or in the New Jerusalem.

so -- why not simply make sure that 'we' will be in heaven. It IS God's Way for heaven or rejecting His way and ending up where No one in their right mind would want to go.

Sue,

We've been over these. There's nothing there to support these claims. Man is not immortal. Paul said, this mortal must put on immortality. That means he was mortal, not immortal.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:53-54 KJV)

Man is mortal. you have it straight from the apostle Paul. Immortality will come at the Resurrection. It's not now. We've already discussed Heaven, there's no evidence. And, as we see, this place where the wicked are burned is not eternal. No one spends eternity in Heaven or hell. The earth will be renewed and man will live on the earth to fulfill the purpose which God put him here for.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26 KJV)

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:1
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. (Heb. 2:5-8 KJV)

Paul quotes the OT and man being put in charge of the creation. Then he says that we don't yet see all things under man. It's yet to come.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- other than the fact that your comment makes no sense?!

Dave M. made a good point.

Sure it makes sense. A place that doesn't burn forever cannot have people in it burning forever.

 

[Sue D.]

Maybe someone else can continue with this discussion.

 

[Dave M]

Maybe someone else can continue with this discussion.

lol

 

[Dave M]

why would someone believe that people will burn forever in a place that doesn't burn forever?

fair enough,

so with that line of reasoning how can one believe in the Resurrection?

 

[Butch5]

Maybe someone else can continue with this discussion.

Sue,

You said to me before that you didn't see how we could both be reading the dame Bible since we come to such different conclusions. I said it was because of our presuppositions. Things you're saying aren't found in the Scriptures. There's nothing in the Scriptures that says people go to Heaven. There's nothing in the Scriptures that says man has an immortal soul. These are presuppositions that you are bringing to the text. They're things you suppose are true when you read the Bible. I used to believe these things too. However, after researching them in the Bible I find no evidence for them. In fact I find evidence that refutes them. In order to correctly understand the Bible we need to draw our suppositions from the Bible.

I can understand the confusion about hell as the KJV rendered three different locations as hell. Add to that the mistranslation of the word aion. Add to that that the hell doctrine has been used over the centuries to control people and it's not hard to see where the confusion comes from.

 

[Butch5]

fair enough,

so with that line of reasoning how can one believe in the Resurrection?

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Sue D.]

Butch -- I read the NKJ and I grew up with KJV. A wonderful pastor teacher. There IS going to be a real hell and a real heaven. Now Maybe you'd rather call them the future lake of fire and brimstone or the Present Hades or whatever you want to call it for the non-believing people. And calling the after-life for Believers the New Jerusalem. Believer who die Now are immediate with Jesus Christ.

Eventually -- the Final abode Will be either the Lake of fire and Brimstone OR the New Jerusalem -- and Both will be Forever.

All the churches I've ever gone to -- Big or Small -- in lots of geographical areas All taught a real heaven and a real hell in Everyone's future that Will last Forever.

And there's been No control issues from churches to teaching the existence of hell.

What Bible do You use?

 

[Butch5]

Butch -- I read the NKJ and I grew up with KJV. A wonderful pastor teacher. There IS going to be a real hell and a real heaven. Now Maybe you'd rather call them the future lake of fire and brimstone or the Present Hades or whatever you want to call it for the non-believing people. And calling the after-life for Believers the New Jerusalem. Believer who die Now are immediate with Jesus Christ.

Eventually -- the Final abode Will be either the Lake of fire and Brimstone OR the New Jerusalem -- and Both will be Forever.

All the churches I've ever gone to -- Big or Small -- in lots of geographical areas All taught a real heaven and a real hell in Everyone's future that Will last Forever.

And there's been No control issues from churches to teaching the existence of hell.

What Bible do You use?

I have to disagree. Paul said to the Corinthians, if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. If that wasn't the case and they were with the Lord, then what Paul said wouldn't be true and there would be an error in the Bible. The only hope he gives is the Resurrection.

Here's how I understand what happens. When a man dies, the breath of life returns to God, the man goes into the grave, Hades. This is all men, everyone. They all go to the grave and the breath of life of all people returns to God. Everyone remains dead, in the grave, Hades, until Christ returns when He calls forth the dead. The dead in Christ will rise first. Christ will reign for 1000 years at which point the rest of humanity will be raised. They will be judged and those not worthy will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire, Gehenna, which is the second death. They die a physical death, a second time. They burn up and are no more.

This fits with what we find in the Scriptures.

I have no doubt that you've gone to churches all your life that taught that people go to Heaven or a place of ETC. It's been taught for a long time. As I said in another post, some things have been around so long that they're just accepted as true and not challenged. However, if we study the history of the Church we find that the apostolic faith was taken over in the west by the Catholic Church. For about 1000 years the Catholic Church had almost sole control of the Scriptures in Western civilization. The average Joe didn't have access to the Scriptures like we do. Whatever the Church taught, that was doctrine. This is how the Catholic Church got so powerful. During this time the Catholic Church changed a lot of what was taught. Over time the abuses got to the point where some where willing to challenge the church. Out of this came the Reformation. However, remember, these reformers were Catholic. They did bring about some changes in the Faith, however, they didn't fix everything that the Catholic Church had corrupted. The idea that people would ascend into the heavens was taught even before the New Testament was written. Plato taught that the body was a prison of the soul and the goal of man was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. This was the Greek philosophy and it was in place in New Testament times. Greek thought had an influence on the teachings of the apostles and they had to refute it often. Paul even refutes it in his letter to the Corinthians. So, it's no surprise that it's persisted. A belief that is believed by the majority of people in the world is likely to be around for a while. But, should the question be, has the church taught this for a long time? Or, should it be, is this what the Bible teaches?.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Believer who die Now are immediate with Jesus Christ.

Greeting Sue,

Many people say the believer goes to be with the Lord, that I believe is incorrect.

This is my understanding...

Prior to our Lord's Return -
the spirit and living soul of the believer (born again believer) go to be with the Lord in the current heaven.

The flesh body of the saved believer returns to the dust of the earth, the spirit and the soul of the saved believer goes to be with the Lord, not the actual believer them self. Although the born again believers soul and spirit may also go to a waiting place, Paradise? awaiting the resurrection.

The flesh body of the none believer (none born again person) returns to the dust of the earth, same as the saved believers does, but the spirit and soul of the none born again person goes to a place of waiting, awaiting judgement.

The believer and the none believer consist of a Flesh Body, with spirit and soul. The flesh is mortal, the spirit and living soul are immortal.

Comments and scriptural understanding of all is very welcome.

Shalom

 

[Butch5]

Butch -- I read the NKJ and I grew up with KJV. A wonderful pastor teacher. There IS going to be a real hell and a real heaven. Now Maybe you'd rather call them the future lake of fire and brimstone or the Present Hades or whatever you want to call it for the non-believing people. And calling the after-life for Believers the New Jerusalem. Believer who die Now are immediate with Jesus Christ.

Eventually -- the Final abode Will be either the Lake of fire and Brimstone OR the New Jerusalem -- and Both will be Forever.

All the churches I've ever gone to -- Big or Small -- in lots of geographical areas All taught a real heaven and a real hell in Everyone's future that Will last Forever.

And there's been No control issues from churches to teaching the existence of hell.

What Bible do You use?

I use a bunch of different translations. I also use different manuscripts. I use the Masoretic text and the Septuagint. The primary Greek text I use is NA 28

 

[Brother-Paul]

I have to disagree. Paul said to the Corinthians, if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. If that wasn't the case and they were with the Lord, then what Paul said wouldn't be true and there would be an error in the Bible. The only hope he gives is the Resurrection.

Here's how I understand what happens. When a man dies, the breath of life returns to God, the man goes into the grave, Hades. This is all men, everyone. They all go to the grave and the breath of life of all people returns to God. Everyone remains dead, in the grave, Hades, until Christ returns when He calls forth the dead. The dead in Christ will rise first. Christ will reign for 1000 years at which point the rest of humanity will be raised. They will be judged and those not worthy will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire, Gehenna, which is the second death. They die a physical death, a second time. They burn up and are no more.

This fits with what we find in the Scriptures.

I agree brother, the flesh body goes to the grave, whether or not the body was of a born again person or not.

You say the breath of life goes to God, which is the breath of God which God put in man, when a person is born again the Spirit dwells in Him, it is Holy, it would return to God, therefore a born again person has a saved soul, that must also go back to God as these two are immortal, the flesh is mortal from the dust of the earth and to the dust it returns. Please confirm you view regarding the soul.

The none believer, none born again spirit and soul goes I think to a special place awaiting judgement.

I have no doubt that you've gone to churches all your life that taught that people go to Heaven or a place of ETC. It's been taught for a long time. As I said in another post, some things have been around so long that they're just accepted as true and not challenged. However, if we study the history of the Church we find that the apostolic faith was taken over in the west by the Catholic Church. For about 1000 years the Catholic Church had almost sole control of the Scriptures in Western civilization. The average Joe didn't have access to the Scriptures like we do. Whatever the Church taught, that was doctrine. This is how the Catholic Church got so powerful. During this time the Catholic Church changed a lot of what was taught. Over time the abuses got to the point where some where willing to challenge the church.

That is why I am constantly saying brother, we need to go back to the early church, from Pentecost for first few hundred years, the period before Constantine and the RCC were involved, from then there have been to many changes and as you say, before the printing press, before reading and writing and understanding everyone believed everything the RCC taught. Sad and very dangerous. The church today takes so much for granted in what it does and believes.

Out of this came the Reformation. However, remember, these reformers were Catholic. They did bring about some changes in the Faith, however, they didn't fix everything that the Catholic Church had corrupted. The idea that people would ascend into the heavens was taught even before the New Testament was written. Plato taught that the body was a prison of the soul and the goal of man was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. This was the Greek philosophy and it was in place in New Testament times. Greek thought had an influence on the teachings of the apostles and they had to refute it often. Paul even refutes it in his letter to the Corinthians. So, it's no surprise that it's persisted. A belief that is believed by the majority of people in the world is likely to be around for a while. But, should the question be, has the church taught this for a long time? Or, should it be, is this what the Bible teaches?.

The reformation is exactly as you describe it, the reformers were catholic. Some things were corrected, made clear, although the RCC followed the path it had laid over the hundreds of years.

Many Protestants still wanted to follow the RCC, many still do to this day. Many protestant churches say the creed every Sunday, I believe...…. then say, I believe in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic church.... They are tied to it, they profess their faith through it.

There are so many wrongs today, it is our salvation, it is up to each person to find out THE TRUTH, and the only way to do that is go back to Acts, study the Word and the early church. The differences stand out like blotches on a white garment.

Shalom

 

[Butch5]

I agree brother, the flesh body goes to the grave, whether or not the body was of a born again person or not.

You say the breath of life goes to God, which is the breath of God which God put in man, when a person is born again the Spirit dwells in Him, it is Holy, it would return to God, therefore a born again person has a saved soul, that must also go back to God as these two are immortal, the flesh is mortal from the dust of the earth and to the dust it returns. Please confirm you view regarding the soul.

The none believer, none born again spirit and soul goes I think to a special place awaiting judgement.




That is why I am constantly saying brother, we need to go back to the early church, from Pentecost for first few hundred years, the period before Constantine and the RCC were involved, from then there have been to many changes and as you say, before the printing press, before reading and writing and understanding everyone believed everything the RCC taught. Sad and very dangerous. The church today takes so much for granted in what it does and believes.




The reformation is exactly as you describe it, the reformers were catholic. Some things were corrected, made clear, although the RCC followed the path it had laid over the hundreds of years.

Many Protestants still wanted to follow the RCC, many still do to this day. Many protestant churches say the creed every Sunday, I believe...…. then say, I believe in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic church.... They are tied to it, they profess their faith through it.

There are so many wrongs today, it is our salvation, it is up to each person to find out THE TRUTH, and the only way to do that is go back to Acts, study the Word and the early church. The differences stand out like blotches on a white garment.

Shalom

Hi Brother Paul,

This is what I believe. Man consists of the dust of the earth as we see in Gen 2:7. That's what a man is, dust. I believe that God breathed, His, breath of life into that dust, man. I believe that dust, man, became a living soul. What I see here is, a man that consists of dust, the breath (spirit) of life which is something belonging to God, and a living soul which is comprised to two elements, the breath (spirit) of life from God and a man. So, we have, the body, the spirit, and the soul, all accounted for. I believe a man dies when the breath of life is removed from the dust, man. At this point the soul no longer exists because it's two components have been separated. The breath of life returns to God as it is His. The man, the dust returns to the dust. I see nothing here that could possible live on after death. I believe this is what happens to all people no matter what they believe. Everyone goes to the grave, Hades. They remain there until they are resurrected. The dead in Christ will rise first. Later all the dead will rise. They will be judged and those not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, Gehenna, where they will experience the second death, a second physical death. The bodies will be burned up and they will cease to exist.

A lot of people believe there is a human spirit, however, I see no evidence of this whatsoever. I don't believe that man is immortal at all. The believer does get immortality at the resurrection. But he is not immortal, but rather has once again been given access to the Tree of Life, from which he was banned.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22-24 KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

It seems to me that man is not inherently immortal. In order to live forever, he has to have access to the Tree of Life.


Consider the computer for analogy. The man is the computer, the electricity is the breath of life. The computer is an inanimate object. It can do nothing. However, when electricity is applied to it, it comes alive. The functioning computer would be the soul. The computer hardware and the electricity form the functioning computer. When the electricity is taken away the functioning computer no longer exists. Now all that's left is the inanimate hardware. But note that the electricity is not a part of the computer. It is something totally separate. I would submit that the breath or spirit of life is not a part of man, but is rather something out of God. It's what God uses to animate the man.

 

[Butch5]

I agree brother, the flesh body goes to the grave, whether or not the body was of a born again person or not.

You say the breath of life goes to God, which is the breath of God which God put in man, when a person is born again the Spirit dwells in Him, it is Holy, it would return to God, therefore a born again person has a saved soul, that must also go back to God as these two are immortal, the flesh is mortal from the dust of the earth and to the dust it returns. Please confirm you view regarding the soul.

The none believer, none born again spirit and soul goes I think to a special place awaiting judgement.




That is why I am constantly saying brother, we need to go back to the early church, from Pentecost for first few hundred years, the period before Constantine and the RCC were involved, from then there have been to many changes and as you say, before the printing press, before reading and writing and understanding everyone believed everything the RCC taught. Sad and very dangerous. The church today takes so much for granted in what it does and believes.




The reformation is exactly as you describe it, the reformers were catholic. Some things were corrected, made clear, although the RCC followed the path it had laid over the hundreds of years.

Many Protestants still wanted to follow the RCC, many still do to this day. Many protestant churches say the creed every Sunday, I believe...…. then say, I believe in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic church.... They are tied to it, they profess their faith through it.

There are so many wrongs today, it is our salvation, it is up to each person to find out THE TRUTH, and the only way to do that is go back to Acts, study the Word and the early church. The differences stand out like blotches on a white garment.

Shalom

About the history, I agree with you. I don't think a lot of people really know the history. It's not as cut and dry as many seem to believe. If we follow history back through time we can see quite a few issues that have developed over the centuries. I don't think many realize that much of their belief system is in fact Catholic. Many may not want to admit that but it is the case. Many of the modern doctrines trace their origins to the Catholic Church and not the apostles. There are at least 4 "Chrsitian" doctrines that are almost universally accepted in the west that aren't Biblical doctrines at all. They've just been believed for so long no one challenges them. And, as I pointed out, the Catholic Church had almost sole control of the Scriptures for 1000 years.

A study of the Ante-Nicene Fathers is useful for seeing what the early Christians believed. They're not perfect, but they give a good idea of how the early church understood the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Sue D.]

I use a bunch of different translations. I also use different manuscripts. I use the Masoretic text and the Septuagint. The primary Greek text I use is NA 28

Okay -- what Are those different translations?

 

[Sue D.]

Greeting Sue,

Many people say the believer goes to be with the Lord, that I believe is incorrect.

This is my understanding...

Prior to our Lord's Return -
the spirit and living soul of the believer (born again believer) go to be with the Lord in the current heaven.

The flesh body of the saved believer returns to the dust of the earth, the spirit and the soul of the saved believer goes to be with the Lord, not the actual believer them self. Although the born again believers soul and spirit may also go to a waiting place, Paradise? awaiting the resurrection.

The flesh body of the none believer (none born again person) returns to the dust of the earth, same as the saved believers does, but the spirit and soul of the none born again person goes to a place of waiting, awaiting judgement.

The believer and the none believer consist of a Flesh Body, with spirit and soul. The flesh is mortal, the spirit and living soul are immortal.

Comments and scriptural understanding of all is very welcome.

Shalom

That's what I said -- the physical body dies and the spirit / soul of the person goes to be with Jesus Christ // the Lord in the current heaven.

 

[Butch5]

Okay -- what Are those different translations?

My current set up has the KJV, NKJV, ESV, NIV, YLT, ASV, The Greek NA 28 text, Murdock's translation of the Peshitta, Brenton's translation of the Septuagint, For the Masoretic text the WTT which is based on the Lennengrad text, Rahlf's Septuagint text. These are the resources open on my current desktop.

 

[Sue D.]

Goodness -- no Wonder you're confused. I would be Too If I was trying to 'wade' through all of that.