Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Gracealone]

A dear lady once scolded me for saying the Church must suffer before Jesus returns. She said Jesus loves the Church, His Bride, and He will not let her suffer. I think she does not know much history. Today I was looking at I Peter. Seventeen times in that book he wrote the word for suffering. 1 Peter 4:12 (ESV) says, "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you." He must have been thinking of persecution of Christians under the Roman emperor. In the next verse he mentions the time of the rapture. Paul wrote in 2 Tim. 2:12 (ESV) "if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"
We will reign in a millennium. Rev. 20:4

John

What you are not understanding John, is the difference between suffering, which we were promised would happen, and the wrath of God, which we are not appointed unto.
Two different things.
Suffering for our faith comes from man, the tribulation time is Gods wrath being poured out.
He will not pour out his wrath on his bride!
WE are in Heaven with him,called away for a wedding.

 

[youngjohn]

Gracealone, you wrote, "the tribulation time is God's wrath being poured out.
He will not pour out his wrath on his bride" But the Bible says those who worship the beast will drink the wine of God's wrath (Rev. 14:10). They will "have no rest day or night" forever and ever.
The Bible also says those who will not worship the beast are to be slain (Rev. 13:15) and the multitude of slain saints in the Great tribulation was such that no one could number them.
Is it the wrath of God that will kill them? The Bible says it is the beast, powered by Satan.
Is the Great Tribulation really part of the wrath of God?

John

 

[Gracealone]

Gracealone, you wrote, "the tribulation time is God's wrath being poured out.
He will not pour out his wrath on his bride" But the Bible says those who worship the beast will drink the wine of God's wrath (Rev. 14:10). They will "have no rest day or night" forever and ever.
The Bible also says those who will not worship the beast are to be slain (Rev. 13:15) and the multitude of slain saints in the Great tribulation was such that no one could number them.
Is it the wrath of God that will kill them? The Bible says it is the beast, powered by Satan.
Is the Great Tribulation really part of the wrath of God?

John

The reason you are confused is because you keep making the tribulation saints, the church.
They are not the church, they are the tribulation saints.......people who went into the tribulation as unbelievers, and accepted the truth during the tribulation.
The Bride of Christ was taken out prior to the tribulation, caught up to be with the Lord, in the air.
So, No it is not the wrath of God that is killing them but Satan who
is now in control, or thinks he is, and is still trying to exalt himself above God, and still desires to be worshiped as God, as he will try, half way through the tribulation.
Many will come to faith during the tribulation, but they entered the tribulation because they were not saved yet.
It was their choice, not Gods.
Yes they entered the time period of the tribulation, where Gods wrath is being poured out,because of unbelief, and will suffer many horrible things , even martyrdom .
That is why God warns us to escape the wrath of God by coming to him now. Now, before the tribulation time.
Cant you see yet?

 

[youngjohn]

Gracealone: You say I am confused because I say the tribulation saints are the Church. I do say that, based on what the Bible teaches. The Church, the ekklesia, is the body of humans who have been called out of this world to belong to Jesus. To say there are groups of saved people who are not part of the Church is unbiblical. Herews 11:40 helps us to understand this. Jesus has only one Bride, and all the redeemed belong to it.

You say the tribulation saints were converted after the rapture. In saying this, you simply assume what you are asked to prove. You give no evidence that it is so. There is no biblical evidence that the rapture will come at 4:1.

There is biblical evidence that the rapture will occur at a point half way through the book of Revelation.

For years I have begged those who believe in a pretrib. rapture to give a biblical basis for the idea, and I still wait for someone to do so. Until that day I am bound by what the Bible seems to say.

John

 

[Gracealone]

Gracealone: You say I am confused because I say the tribulation saints are the Church. I do say that, based on what the Bible teaches. The Church, the ekklesia, is the body of humans who have been called out of this world to belong to Jesus. To say there are groups of saved people who are not part of the Church is unbiblical. Herews 11:40 helps us to understand this. Jesus has only one Bride, and all the redeemed belong to it.

You say the tribulation saints were converted after the rapture. In saying this, you simply assume what you are asked to prove. You give no evidence that it is so. There is no biblical evidence that the rapture will come at 4:1.

There is biblical evidence that the rapture will occur at a point half way through the book of Revelation.

For years I have begged those who believe in a pretrib. rapture to give a biblical basis for the idea, and I still wait for someone to do so. Until that day I am bound by what the Bible seems to say.

John

Yes we are called out of this world, just prior to the tribulation.
Those who turn to Christ during the tribulation are not called the church, they are called saints.
Read Revelation.....the Church is not mentioned after ch. 4 until the end of Revelation where we see the church , or bride, coming back with Jesus, the armies clothed in white.
We have to be with him already to come back with him.

Anyway, John, right now I have to drop this for now. Preparations are being made to help my daughter, which is of more importance to me than word dulling with you here.
I have said before, and say again, the time of the tribulation, and what we believe about it, is not a salvation issue, so will leave it there for awhile.
Hopefully after Chad looks at our study of these issues, I can post the URL so you can hear the study for yourself. Line upon line through the Bible.
Pastor Bob can explain it much better than myself.
You will find it to be an eye opener, for it was to me also.
And I might add, he brings into focus all the scripture pertaining to this truth.
A thought:
I have the study on CD's would be happy to send them to you if you would like to hear them, or have the church send you copies. Just need an address, or something.

PS: Listening again to Revelation......have it all on one MP3.
Will be easier to send than I thought.

 

[carlos marquez]

The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.
I hope the persecuted church is praying for all us
theologians.
1Thessalonians 3:3-4.
That no man should be moved by these afflictions:for you yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
For verily,when we were with you,we told you before that you should suffer tribulation;
even as it came to pass,and ye know.

Philippians 1:29.
For you have been granted[the privilege]for Christ sake not only to believe in(adhere to,rely on,and trust in)Him,but also to suffer in His behalf.

2Timothy 2:11.
The saying is sure and worthy of confidence:if we have died with Him,we shall also live with Him.
2Timothy2:12.
If we suffer we shall also reign with Him:if we deny him He will also deny us.

 

[Gracealone]

Once again we are mistaking tribulation ,and the wrath of God.

No one questions that we will have tribulation, meaning here ,trials, and persecution, God promised we would have them, guaranteed! but the wrath of God, in Revelation is another subject.
The wrath of God is poured out on an unbelieving world, that has pushed him aside as we see today happening.
Soon, and very soon, I believe, we Christians will face persecution as never before and have no place to run to like we did when we came to America.
Many already are!
There is only one place we will find safety, and that is with the Lord when He says to us, Come up here.
In a moment ,in the twinkling of an eye, we will meet him in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The wrath of God, is a time that we, his church, are not appointed for.
Totally different to each other.......persecution coming from man, wrath of Revelation coming from God.
Now tell me, why would he pour out his wrath on his own people!
He wont!
We will be caught up to meet him in the air, as the Bible clearly says.
Shall not the judge of the earth do right?
He took Lot out of the land just as he will us, before he pour's out his wrath on the world.

 

[carlos marquez]

I understand what you are saying , but I still hold only to one second coming, no matter how hot the fires may get.

 

[Gracealone]

I believe there are two 'stages' to his second coming.
The first to rapture his church, the bride of Christ, where we meet him in the air,( for a marriage) and then the second part of his second coming is when he comes riding on a white horse at the end of the tribulation, his bride, the church with him, to rule and reign a thousand years.

My years get the best of me sometimes, my memory isn't as good as I wish it were..... :embarasse but visiting with you folk on the subject helps a lot.
.
Iron sharpens iron , and that is Good!

Night for now, it is late, and tomorrow is another day, where Gods grace is new, every morning.

 

[carlos marquez]

But didnt He already come once,when He was crucified?
Now there only remains one more coming to take His church?

 

[Gracealone]

He came as a servant, riding on a donkey.
The next time he comes riding on a white horse, as a victorious King.

The rapture is only a prelude to his second coming to earth.
The rapture , he calls us up to meet him in the air.
He doesn't set foot on the earth at that time.

It is liken to the Jewish tradition of marriage.

Jesus said to us,he goes to prepare a place for us, like a husband to be does his wife to be, in the Jewish culture.
It is the Father who determines when the time is right, for the Son to call his bride to the marriage.
The traditional Jewish marriage is what the rapture is a picture of.

When we studied this I was touched by the awesome beauty of it, and the Love Jesus has for us.

 

[Boanerges]

Carlos my friend, I agree with you about the second coming.
The plagues in Revelations parallel the plagues that fell on Egypt. Though God's wrath was poured out on those people God made a clear distinction between them and His chosen people:

Exo 8:23 And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.

Exo 9:4 And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.

It seems that every time a judgment would fall on Egypt (the world) God's people were not touched. This was a clear sign to the lost that the hand of God was upon His people.


PS: In my opinion being dogmatic about interpretations of Revelations is a tenuous thing at best.:shock:

 

[Gracealone]

I thought to defend my stand on Gods word, and the spirit of my heart, but I think that is futile.

If standing on truth, and desiring to comfort one another with that truth, comes across as opinionated and arrogant then I guess I'm in the wrong place.

I am sorry you feel that way, but because you do, then anything I say would be fruitless ,wouldn't it.

I'm am sorry , I thought different, I do leave with a sad heart.

 

[Boanerges]

I thought to defend my stand on Gods word, and the spirit of my heart, but I think that is futile.

If standing on truth, and desiring to comfort one another with that truth, comes across as opinionated and arrogant then I guess I'm in the wrong place.

I am sorry you feel that way, but because you do, then anything I say would be fruitless ,wouldn't it.

I'm am sorry , I thought different, I do leave with a sad heart.

Gracealone are you talking to me? I certainly meant no offense and was not personally referring to you. In fact I was commenting on my own experience and how my opinion on Revelations has changed over the years. I simply believe that all of us will be in for some surprises , if I offended you I apologize.

 

[Gracealone]

I saw your post from my e-mail, and yes, I did feel it was directed at me.
I too am sorry if I misunderstood, but since it followed my post it seemed evident.
This is one thing I have trouble with ,in these sites, is the harsh black and white of the written word.
With out a face, and a tone of voice, things are to often seen in a different light than was meant.
It has been a rough two weeks here at home, and I suppose I'm worn a bit thin, forgive me!

I know God knows my heart, but hope I can portray mine in a clearer sense in the future.
Thank you for writing, it encourages me, to stay on.

I know I fall far short of the race I have yet to run, but pray I run it to the glory of my Lord. :embarasse

 

[JWayne]

I thought to defend my stand on Gods word, and the spirit of my heart, but I think that is futile.

If standing on truth, and desiring to comfort one another with that truth, comes across as opinionated and arrogant then I guess I'm in the wrong place.

I am sorry you feel that way, but because you do, then anything I say would be fruitless ,wouldn't it.

I'm am sorry , I thought different, I do leave with a sad heart.

Grace, my dear sister in Christ, I feel your frustration, but at the same time, I know that from all of the refutation given that which you are saying is so true.

It is amazing at how much turmoil the truth brings out in people, but I for one think that by leaving you are giving into Satan's desires.

Stand tall and continue in your walk with the Lord. I know we individually can not fill God's footprints, but those of us who are not afraid of standing in His prints, together can and will make a difference. If you leave, Satan chalks up another point, and you and I both know that is not what we want to see happen.

Please remember, that God's hand is on our shoulder, at all times.

Love in Christ,

JWayne

 

[Gracealone]

Thank you YWayne, I am very grateful for your encouragement also.

I have no choice but to stand on the truth God has taught me, and I agree with your word.
In the middle of the night ,last night, your very council came through my mind, and this morning Boanerges had replied with his encouragement, and insight, now you......so in that I see Gods hand, and Yes, I am staying.
I've walked with the Lord long enough to know Satan's way of attacking, and should know better than to jump to conclusions, but as I said to Boanerges, There has been attacks here at home also, and I'm worn thin, somewhat.
I've prayed about it, confessed my weakness to my Lord, and now I'm ready to simply stand, and see the salvation of our Lord.
Nothing comes into my life that doesnt pass through his hands first.
So knowing that, shame on me! HUH! LOL

 

[Boanerges]

I saw your post from my e-mail, and yes, I did feel it was directed at me.
I too am sorry if I misunderstood, but since it followed my post it seemed evident.
This is one thing I have trouble with ,in these sites, is the harsh black and white of the written word.
With out a face, and a tone of voice, things are to often seen in a different light than was meant.
It has been a rough two weeks here at home, and I suppose I'm worn a bit thin, forgive me!

I know God knows my heart, but hope I can portray mine in a clearer sense in the future.
Thank you for writing, it encourages me, to stay on.

I know I fall far short of the race I have yet to run, but pray I run it to the glory of my Lord. :embarasse

I am praying God's peace and blessing on you and your home my sister.
There will be a day when we all agree on all doctrine and that will be the Day Jesus Christ comes. In the mean time we are called to love and encourage each other as we are family and we (while not in doctrine) can be unified in spirit and purpose working shoulder to shoulder in the Kingdom. Disagreeing with someone is not disrespecting them :
Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
If we are born again then we are indeed family and even more importantly we are members of the body of Christ. This body is not complete if even one part is missing:

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

You and your opinions are respected, you are important and you are loved in Jesus Name.
Have a blessed day, let Jesus be your strength,
brother Larry.

 

[Gracealone]

Thank you ,Larry, I accept your comments with a grateful heart.

And as an edification from my Lord. God Bless,and keep you!

 

[cman77]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.