Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Gracealone]

Amen, so be it!

At that time he will set foot on the earth again, and ride in on a white horse. Praise God.
First the suffering servant, on a donkey, second on a white horse victorious King of Kings.
Looking forward with great anticipation to that glorious day.

 

[youngjohn]

I see in the Bible several things that must happen before Jesus returns for His Church.
The Great Tribulaltion must come first. Matt. 24:29,

 

[youngjohn]

Here are things that I think will happen before Jesus comes for the Church.
Heavy persecution in the Great Tribulation. Matt. 24:29-31
Apostasy. 2 Thess. 2:3
Antichrist appears. 2 Thess. 2:3
A temple will be standing. 2 Thess. 2:3
Two Witnesses will preach for 42 months. Rev. 11:3, 7, 11
Israel will begin to repent. Matt.23:39

John

 

[Johna]

Why do you not see that we, the Church, the bride of Christ, is not appointed unto Gods wrath?
To hold to what you are saying here, although these things will happen, but not to the church, you have to tear out of your Bible many vrs.
1 Thes.1:10
1 Thes. 2:16
1Thes.5:9
that give us assurance we will be caught up to be with the Lord, prior to his wrath upon the earth.
The temple will be built during the tribulation., and that period is the wrath of God upon the earth, not man against man.
Rev.6:16
Rev.11:18
Rev. 14:10
Rev.15:1
Rev.16:1
Rev.16:19

I don't desire to try to convince you of my view, but am in hopes that you might be comforted with these words, as God exalts us to do.1 Thes. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.Whether we wake,or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore, (and when you see wherefore ask what it is therefore), comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also you do. The wherefore takes us back to the first of the chapter which brings it into context, For this we say unto you,by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive, and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arcangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall arise first: Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them ,in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
That is my hearts desire, I have tried to put forth the hope, and the comfort we have been given for these end times.
My heart is clear before my Lord. May he now apply the truth to your heart to,as he has mine. Amen, and Amen

 

[Gracealone]

Some how I got in under my Sons name.
The post above is mine, and not Johna.

I didn't know how to correct this, so apologize. Two people using the same computer ,things happen.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Gracealone, Your post under the name Johna was excellent and I agree with it totally. :shade:


Peace, Golfjack.

 

[cman77]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Gracealone, you didn't seem to catch that it says all of these things will happen immediately after the tribulation. they shall gather his elect. when it says heaven i am pretty sure it is not referring to heaven. it is referring to the expanse of his creation. i believe he is making clear that not one of his elect is being overlooked.

 

[Boanerges]

Why do you not see that we, the Church, the bride of Christ, is not appointed unto Gods wrath?
To hold to what you are saying here, although these things will happen, but not to the church, you have to tear out of your Bible many vrs.
1 Thes.1:10
1 Thes. 2:16
1Thes.5:9
that give us assurance we will be caught up to be with the Lord, prior to his wrath upon the earth.
The temple will be built during the tribulation., and that period is the wrath of God upon the earth, not man against man.
Rev.6:16
Rev.11:18
Rev. 14:10
Rev.15:1
Rev.16:1
Rev.16:19

I don't desire to try to convince you of my view, but am in hopes that you might be comforted with these words, as God exalts us to do.1 Thes. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.Whether we wake,or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore, (and when you see wherefore ask what it is therefore), comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also you do. The wherefore takes us back to the first of the chapter which brings it into context, For this we say unto you,by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive, and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arcangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall arise first: Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them ,in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
That is my hearts desire, I have tried to put forth the hope, and the comfort we have been given for these end times.
My heart is clear before my Lord. May he now apply the truth to your heart to,as he has mine. Amen, and Amen

God's people were not harmed while Egypt was ruined a short distance from their door. God's wrath may not be for His church but that dies not mean we will not see it poured out.
BTW-
When the Christians died in the Colosseum they went to their deaths singing : tonight we will be in heaven and you will still be here. There was no fear but rejoicing much to the dismay of their captors.

 

[Gracealone]

Each man has to be fully persuaded in his own heart and mind., and I am.
We have studied through Revelation 3 times line upon line, in the past year and a half., or two years.
Looking at all the side scripture, and placing them in the mosaic of a perfect Revelation of Jesus and his Love. His plan for his Bride, and the events to come after the time of his wrath.

I have been faithful to what I know to be true, and rest my case, upon the word of God.

Love you Guys, in the Lord, so, grace, and peace be multiplied to each one, I have enjoyed sharing with you, and will give you all a big hug when we meet Jesus in the air. :friends:

 

[youngjohn]

Johna:
I agree that God has not destined us to His wrath. But then you conclude that therefore we will not experience the great tribulation. The Bible clearlly tells us that believers will be in the great tribulation. You need to see that the wrath of God is not the great tribulation.

John

 

[Boanerges]

Each man has to be fully persuaded in his own heart and mind., and I am.
We have studied through Revelation 3 times line upon line, in the past year and a half., or two years.
Looking at all the side scripture, and placing them in the mosaic of a perfect Revelation of Jesus and his Love. His plan for his Bride, and the events to come after the time of his wrath.

I have been faithful to what I know to be true, and rest my case, upon the word of God.

Love you Guys, in the Lord, so, grace, and peace be multiplied to each one, I have enjoyed sharing with you, and will give you all a big hug when we meet Jesus in the air. :friends:

Amen my friend!

 

[rizen1]

I love this topic, so far everyone's been nice not taking anything personal. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, hopefully baptized into one spirit. ( Even though sometimes we are not of the same mind )

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "I Cor. 12:13

The problem we face today is that alot of our current doctrines are of western Christianity popularized by books,videos etc. But praise the Lord we can throw all those foolish man made opinions and resources, and go directly to the Word of God.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. colossian 2:8

"when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth" (Jn.16:13)

As Born again believers, who received the Holy Spirit we can rest assure that what comes out of us is of the spirit and not the flesh (pride).

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22)

So now that the Holy Spirit is in control, lets try to be of one mind. Not my opinions versus your opinions, or you need to believe what I've been taught.

I'm curious also to what the Word of God is saying. And am tired of outsiders looking in and saying those Christians believe in truth but have so many divisions. There can only be one truth everything else is speculation.

Here's the deal, I need both sides to tell me why I should hold their belief as the final truth. We'll make this a bible study rather than a tennis game of throwing bible verses over the net to win a point.

Also the opposing side need to sit back and try to figure out why, the other side believes what they believe. In other words be open minded and allow the Holy Spirit, not your pride but the Holy Spirit to reveal truth from error.

No one verse scripture posting, if I wrote you a 4 page letter and you only quote one line to your friends do they get the full understanding of what I'm saying. No because the paragraphs before that line could be the introduction, and the paragraphs that follow could hold the main point of my letter....So lets respect the word of God, to get a bigger picture of what is being said.

Ok now the whole wrath of God and tribulation...have confused the whole thing.
So before we get into post and pre tribulation, we need to know who God is. If he's the same God today and yesterday whom we know hates sin. and the result of disobedience usually follow chastisement which some might view as God's wrath.

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. (Hebrews 12:5-11 KJV)

Tribulation.....The persecuted churches around the world have more experience in this area, the western world knows nothing about dying for Christ. The thought of being killed for being a Christian is the realization some face everyday.

The secular media uses God wrath, when showing earthquakes, hurricanes and tornadoes. :shock:But they would never put disobedience and God's wrath in the same sentence. When we acknowledge that there are conditions for God's wrath and the fact that chastisement is a sign of sonship. We'll get a better understanding.

Lets begin....
I look forward to the study from both sides hoping by the end become like minded.

 

[Gracealone]

All for that, so where do you start?:thumbs_up

 

[rizen1]

Where do I start, you all seem to be the ones with all the answers...so I'm waiting to see what you have to bring to the table.

Key note from my post....for you to better understand what I'm saying.

I'm curious also to what the Word of God is saying....Here's the deal, I need both sides to tell me why I should hold their belief as the final truth. We'll make this a bible study rather than a tennis game of throwing bible verses over the net to win a point.

When an outsider ask...Tell me why I should be born again ?

Do you ask them to find their own answers or do you eagerly give them the answer ?

 

[Gracealone]

My apologies,

I came in to fix some miss spelled words, and clarify what was confusing to me, but
the more you try to explain ,the worse it gets, so just erased it all.

I feel each side has covered their view anyway, so I'm confident the Holy Spirit
is able to "apply within" each of us the truth from each view.
I truly enjoyed talking about the Lords return, and trust that love covers any differences in our understanding.

Hope we can resume, if so desired, in the love of Christ, and to his glory.
Night All. Grace, and peace abound.

 

[rizen1]

It's ok, the thing is this topic has been bothering me over the weekend so, when I saw it on here I was like great.

I hope I didn't make anyone feel uncomfortable, it's just that I believe the church needs to become same minded. To often we walk away in love and let others keep their beliefs.
In trying to be nice we end up compromising the truth, and we end up with christian gay churches.

Yes there are times we need to back down in love, but there's a time when boldness is needed, a hunger for the truth and not being stuck on what was force fed to us.

Christianity is so popular and cool now, that alot of our doctrines and beliefs are directed to make the audience feel comfortable. Conviction is omitted. The world is suppose to hate us, we're suppose to face prosecution daily, yet we're not.
That tells me that our feel good doctrines and theology needs to be examine.

When you're neighbour is sick they should run to your door begging for you to seek God on their behalf. We have quench the spirit and the power of God is not being seen among sinners.

The reason why people are running to psychics is because the church appears confused to the world, so they rather go to devils for help.

We need a makeover, I need a makeover. When that is done the world would hate us, those in need will want Jesus because we have one truth and we all stand in agreement.

We can let the topic rest, I'll go over everything and make notes if any questions I'll be sure to post it.

God bless and love you.
My feelings and thoughts are not directed at you, it's a conviction I myself have been facing and just wanted to share.

 

[carlos marquez]

You made some very good points Rizen.

 

[youngjohn]

How can a person understand Bible prophecy if he cannot see the difference between the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God?

The Bible says of the beast, in Rev. 13:7 (ESV) "Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them." But it says of the tribulation saints, Rev. 7:9 (ESV) "I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages," became martyrs. They were killed because they refused to worship the beast.

It also says of the Wrath of God, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger," Rev. 14:9, 10.

In the Tribulation, the ones faithful to God were killed. In the Wrath of God, the ones who worshipped the beast were killled. Do you see the difference?

Can you see that the Great Tribulation is not the same as the Wrath of God? The verse saying we are not appointed to wrath does not apply to the Great Tribuation.
We are told specifically that the saints will suffer in the Tribulation.

John

 

[Gracealone]

John, The Great tribulation is the wrath of God.....that whole 7 year period.
The last half worse than the first, but still all one and the same.

How can a person understand Bible prophecy if he cannot see the difference between the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God?

The Bible says of the beast, in Rev. 13:7 (ESV) "Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them." But it says of the tribulation saints, Rev. 7:9 (ESV) "I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages," became martyrs. They were killed because they refused to worship the beast.

It also says of the Wrath of God, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger," Rev. 14:9, 10.

In the Tribulation, the ones faithful to God were killed. In the Wrath of God, the ones who worshipped the beast were killled. Do you see the difference?

Can you see that the Great Tribulation is not the same as the Wrath of God? The verse saying we are not appointed to wrath does not apply to the Great Tribuation.
We are told specifically that the saints will suffer in the Tribulation.....


John All saints mentioned here are going through the tribulation.
The fact that they are conquered show it is not the Church, for Gods word tells us that the very gates of Hell shall not prevail against his church..... Matt.16:18

"And I say also unto thee,That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

All these saints, that are being confused with the church, are those who come out of the tribulation period, as you quoted above in scripture....not the church.

 

[Gracealone]

rizen 1, I agree with what you say here. Totally

Also agree that every thing we say,and do must be done in Love, and I know we do.